LOTR fans - help! - Page 4

[plum]

here's a question: so in the first one, gandalf 'died'. then in the second one, he came back as gandalf the white. how does that work? is he the same person?

[NaturalMommie]

Didn't gandalf go to like another dimension to fight the balrog? Once he defeated the Balrog then he came back or was reborn as Gandalf the White, more powerfull.

But I'm not sure, might be different in the books. although I was just reading my insider magazine and it says 49 minutes of added footage to ROTK, including the house of healing and bits with Sauron and Aragorn, I can't wait.

[dave]

bump

It's not terribly clear what happens to Gandalf, perhaps deliberately so; he's not entirely comfortable discussing it. But somehow, through the power and terror of the ordeal, he has been purged and transformed into his ultimate self, so to speak-not unheard of in mythology, eh?

Oh, I've been busy and tonight I have insomnia, so that explains both my recent absence and my current presence.

[wemoon]

The thread is alive again! Yea!

[lorijds]

Ravin, my LOTR-sister! Ahhhhhh, finally, someone who is as bad (or good) as I am about this stuff!!!!!

A point that seems to remain in confusion:

*IN THE MOVIES* the hobbits appear to all be about the same age. Frodo is indeed 33, which is about the human equivalent of 21, when he receives the ring. but *IN THE BOOK* it is many years before he actually goes off on his adventure, which makes him 50 and the other hobbits are all in their late 20's and 30's. He still looks young, however, because the ring provides longevity. Gollum was actually a hobbit when he found the ring, about 500 years before he met Bilbo.


In one book that I read, it is remarked that the character that Tolkien thought of most like himself (or rather, a character that Tolkein wished to be like) is Faramir. I *wish* in the movie they would have shown Faramir how he truly was; completely rejecting the ring, right from the start. I *love* in the books how noble he is; much like Aragorn.

My kids are about as fanatical as I am about LOTR. I did make a rule that they had to read the books (or listen to me read them) before they would watch the movies. My 9 year old has had me read them to her twice, and has read them all once on her own. 6 year old dd finally made it through them with me this summer, so she was really excited to finally be able to see them. My oldest and I have had several discussions about Tolkien personally and about his influence on later literature (like the Harry Potter books, or the Black Cauldron series). One of my friends' grandfather was a professor in the same department for a while as Tolkein, and my friend once, as a young child, had dinner with Tolkein. Every time we see him, we drill him for any information. Actually, he can't really remember anything about the dinner, as he was little more than an infant, but he makes up lots of good stories for us, and we buy it hook, line, and sinker. She is a total geek like me when it comes to this stuff! Thank god there is someone in my family I can talk to about it all! And NOW, I can come to MDC and spend EVEN MORE time reading and talking about LOTR! Woooo freakin hooooo!

So, besides LOTR, I've made my way through the Silmarillion. That's it, though. What do you, Ravin, Dave, or anyone else, recommend next?

Lori

[Viola]

Gandalf was immortal, so he couldn't really be killed. Here is an explanation my dh gave me:

"Gandalf, though he looked human, was not. He was a Wizard, which is to say a Maia (something like an angel in Tolkien's universe). His physical being perished in the battle with the Balrog (who was also a Maia...gone bad, of course) and his spirit returned to Valinor where the Valar and Maiar dwell (archangels and angels, or gods and lesser gods if you prefer). They knew that, now that Saruman (also a Maia) had turned bad that the Free Peoples of Middle Earth would need help to defeat Sauron (also a Maia, who'd turned REAL bad). So they sent Gandalf's spirit back, clothed in a new physical body, as Gandalf the White."

Gandalf's physical form at that point in time was many centuries old. Originially he and some other wizards, the Istari, came from the West in a boat that came to the elven havens, the only boat ever to come in that direction from Valinor. They landed at the same place that the others left from to go the West. I started listening to the CD audio book of the Silmarillion, but I never finished it. Now I think I'm in the mood.

Oh, also from my dh since I asked him aren't the elves immortal. LOL

"Elves were immortal in Tolkien. Their physical bodies could be destroyed, but their spirits returned to Valinor to the Halls of Waiting. Thence, after many years, they could return (though a few did not for various reasons). Tolkien did not specify the mechanism of this return in the Silmarillion or LoTR, but it was described in some of the books of his collected writings that his son published posthumously. (As such, it might be considered quasi-official, since Tolkien may not have published this for a reason!) Anyway, he said that a new elf would be born, like in form and manner to the elf who had perished. At first he would have no memory of his previous life and would grow to adulthood as his own individual. As he grew older, the memories of his previous "self" would return to him and ultimately he would become the union of his old personality and his new one. Tolkien specifically mentioned that he would honor both sets of his parents, if I recall correctly."

[Viola]

Originally Posted by owensmom

Mildly off topic - did you guys know that Dominic Monaghan is in a fall tv pilot for ABC called Lost? [/url]

Oh yeah, I keep seeing his face in the preview and thinking I know it from somewhere.

[journeymom]

I did make a rule that they had to read the books (or listen to me read them) before they would watch the movies.

Oh, I was soooo disturbed about letting dd see the movies before having read the books. I was going to insist she wait till she'd read it before she could see the movies. Those books made such an impression on me as a kid. They really informed my taste in fantasy novels. And I remember how real the Middle Earth universe was in my imagination. I knew if dd saw even a little bit of the movie it would affect how she reads the books. I wanted her to make up in her own mind what the characters look like. (Sorry, I was initially disappointed in Viggo Mortensen as Aragorn. I pictured him looking more like Boromir.) And I wanted the books to be as exciting and important to her as they are to me.

But, she was 6 when the first movie came out, and I wasn't planning on reading the books to her for a few years. Still haven't. And the first movie came out on dvd and dh has this audio visual-phile's entertainment center set up with surround sound and flat screen tv and there was no way he was going to be put off from seeing the movie.

We tried waiting till after the kids were in bed but, of course, the movie gets rather LOUD at points. Dd came tip-toeing out of her room and begged to watch. After all, the beginning portion with Bilbo's birthday is harmless and quite fun. Well, it was just one slippery slope after another, and 9 y.o. dd has now seen all three movies. : I have no one to be irked with but myself.

Ah well, I have at least read 'The Hobbit' to her.

I love seeing this thread dug up from the dead!

[owensmom]

The Lost Pilot Ep is on this wednesday (9/22) at 8pm on ABC.

Saw Brad Dourif (sp?) on the Emmys (he played Grima Wormtongue) - guess he is in Deadwood (on HBO??). Anyway, was hoping he'd win his nom so I could hear him talk...

[Viola]

Originally Posted by owensmom

The Lost Pilot Ep is on this wednesday (9/22) at 8pm on ABC.

Saw Brad Dourif (sp?) on the Emmys (he played Grima Wormtongue) - guess he is in Deadwood (on HBO??). Anyway, was hoping he'd win his nom so I could hear him talk...

Yeah, he's the doctor on that show.

[JessicaS]

Ok going into uber-nerd mode.

Gollum was not exactly a hobbit like the LOTR hobbits. He is described as being "hobbit-kind" and one of the "Stoors" or "one of the River folk".

There were originally three branches of hobbit-kind. The Fallohides, the Harfoots and the Stoors. Over the centuries the three branches mingled and the differences are less obvious by the time LOTR occurs.

However, the Fallohides blood is still prevelant in two families by the time LOTR occurs, the Tooks which include Pippin, Frodo and Bilbo and the Brandybucks which would include Merry.

That is why Smeagol and Deagol in ROK look different from the other hobbits in the movies.

came from an island that was mid-way between Middle Earth and Valinor and was destroyed when they became corrupt and tried to invade Valinor.

Ravin, you mean Numenor.

While I agree with most of your assesment of the factions of elves you are mistaken about Quenya. Quenya is the language spoken by the Noldor elves. Galadriel is Noldor and Elrond's ancestors were Noldor and Sindar elves. When the Noldor elves returned from Valinor, Thingol (Sindarin) decreed Quenya was not to be spoken in his realm so Sindar become more dominate. Quenya is used for ceremonial purposes and poetry.

The elves of Lothlorien are Silvan elves and speak Sindar. (the Silvan language nearly extinct by this time)

Legolas is actually Silvan his family having merged with the Silvan elves and Legolas describes himself belonging to the Silvan elves. Though his ancestry is Sindarian he identifies with the Silvan Elves.

Yes, Aragorn's line has Elvish blood in it. They are decended from Beren and Luthien (so is Arwen so she is kind of his aunt only seperated by many generations..:LOL)

The wildish men that fights Rohan are the Dunlendings and are sworn enemies of Rohan.

Black Numenoreans are Numenorians who follow Sauron (the Mouth of Sauron is one of them)


If you read Tolkiens Letters you'll find a letter in which Tolkien is postulating about which two towers they are referring to. :LOL SO he isn't really certain either but felt Barad-Dur and Orthanc made the most sense, Minis Morgul and Minis Tirith, were mentioned as other possibilities.

[JessicaS]

If you wanna see more of Brad Dourif (I dunno how to spell it either) he is in the original Dune movie, he plays Baron Harkonnen's mentant assasin.

[lorijds]

My turn to be a geek...

I think that being "hobbit kind" and a member of one of the three tribes that develops into the present day hobbits (am I really saying this?) means that Gollum was as hobbit-like as any other halfling was that long ago. True, he wasn't like a present day hobbit, but rather he was one branch of the ancestors of present day hobbits. Anyone who knows what I am talking about, including you, Abimommy, is a complete and utter nerd, and I hope that my dh doesn't come over here and read what I am typing right now, or he will lose all respect for me...

My view of the elves really changed with the reading of the Silmarillian. Until then, I kind of thought of them as superior to humans in heart and courage, as well as intellect and wisdom. But in the Silmarillian, there is as much (if not more) betrayal, hunger for power, pride, and poor judgement among the elves as there is among humans. After reading the Sill, I definately read the trilogy in a different light.

Come on, LOTR geeks, give me a recommendation of something else to read!

Lori

[JessicaS]

Yes I am a complete and utter nerd.

Well, yeah the hobbits now would be different I was just giving info pertaining to that and that Gollum would be different from Merry, Pippin, Frodo and Bilbo since info is given that specifies their lines are nearly pure Fallohide. I don't really know about Sam, I would actually have to look that up. :LOL

Have you read the books of lost tales?

Some of the stories in them are very interesting, Glorfindel (sob) fights a Balrog in the second Lost Tales and the history of Galadriel and Celeborn is given in Unfinished Tales.

You also get more info on Melkor, the eagles and lots of other interesting info.

[journeymom]

Where's that nerd smilie!! You know, the one with the head-gear and taped up glasses?

[tinybutterfly]

My brother sent us two books...Tales From the Perilous Realm by J.R.R. Tolkien ( includes The Adventures of Tom Bombadil, Leaf by Niggle, Smith of Wootton Major and Farmer Giles of Ham) Also he sent The Road to Middle Earth ( How J.R.R. Tolkien created a new mythology) by T.A. Shippey. I haven't read the second book and read some of the stories from the first book years ago...haven't started on these as I am STILL trying to finish the Silmarillion. Oh, and working on That Hidieous Strength by C.S Lewis. And Under the Tuscan Sun by Frances Mayes...and...well, you see there were two Charles DeLint books that I did actually finish this summer...so many books, so little time...and here I sit on my computer. TB (who is also wishing we had a nerd smilie.)

[lorijds]

Thanks a lot, Journeymom. Is your laundry done yet? I'm having guests over tonight, a whole freakin full house, and the place is a PIT. And what I am doing? Searching for and reading old LOTR threads, and trying to figure out when I'm going to watch all the extended versions plus the appendices in the next couple of weeks!

[journeymom]

Dh came home from work early while I was wandering down this LotR memory lane. So I was yanked away and we went grocery shopping.

[Katrinawitch]

Originally Posted by wemoon

Hehe, I am watching all the commentaries as well! I just got through both the first and second with the cast, now to go back and watch the directors...and what else is there? There is like 4 commentaries! I haven't even had a chance to watch all the additional material on the other two discs yet. This will just go on and on and on forever for me

I had to reply to this post, although it was from a few years (!) back, because I am SUCH a DVD commentary geek! I love watching movies with the commentary, and the LOTR trilogy has so many amazing extras and great commentaries. I love the actors' commentary, of course, but my second favorite is from the creative team & conceptual designers, such as Alan Lee and John Howe, who were for many years Tolkien artists. They were asked to participate on the vision of the films, and created much of the artwork in the final films.

Gawd, I'm a geek!

Edited to add that it's funny seeing Dom Monaghan (Merry in the LOTR movies) mentioned, in the posts from '04, as being in the "new" show Lost, when now it's entering it's 5th season (and I'm just as hooked on that show!)!

[owensmom]

Originally Posted by Katrinawitch

I had to reply to this post, although it was from a few years (!) back, because I am SUCH a DVD commentary geek! I love watching movies with the commentary, and the LOTR trilogy has so many amazing extras and great commentaries. I love the actors' commentary, of course, but my second favorite is from the creative team & conceptual designers, such as Alan Lee and John Howe, who were for many years Tolkien artists. They were asked to participate on the vision of the films, and created much of the artwork in the final films.

Gawd, I'm a geek!

I'm eagerly awaiting John Howe's Forging Dragons...
http://www.amazon.com/John-Howe-Forg...4103813&sr=8-1