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post #21 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by arwenevenstar View Post
Eh? Last time I checked, the bible seemed to believe in the world beginning with Adam and Eve. As far as I am aware, the Christian faith follows that thinking.
I can see that for 3 - 6 it wouldn't encroach on the teachings of montessori, but 6 - 9, I think there are descrepancies that any strict Christian organisation may not agree with.
This is sort of off topic and maybe it should be split into a separate thread in a different forum, an admin would have to do that, so here goes.

I'll begin with the Catholic Church since it's probably the largest. The Catholic Church's official position is basically that evolution and Catholicism are not in conflict with each other, though it refuses to say either way whether or not a Catholic should believe in evolution or creationism. (Nor should it really dictate that doctrine). Darwin's work was published about 10 or 15 years before Papal Infallibility was established under Pope Pius IX. (I can't think of exact dates here). Even under Papal Infallibility, which has actually only been used a few times - Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary (2 things that distinguish doctrinally between Protestants and Catholics), there is no indication of any statement regarding evolution, even though it was likely to be a hot topic around that time.

The Catholic Church didn't really say much of anything until the 1950s, about 100 years later, under Pope Pius XII. He wrote an encyclical (just a fancy name for a Pope Letter) that stated:

"the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faithful. Some however rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question"

So, in other words, souls are immediately created by God. The idea of evolution is something that should be studied and it does not go against the teachings of the Church.

The idea of one person (Adam) being our ancestor is addressed by Pope Pius XII. He rejects other ideas because it "does not appear to be true," which means more investigation is needed and, at that time, the official stance is that there was at least one original man through which original sin has been passed down.

John Paul II, one of my favorite Popes, said in 1996:
"Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical (of Pius XII), some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies -- which was neither planned nor sought -- constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory."

The Catholic Church's official stance on faith and science states:

"...methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are." (Catechism of the Catholic Faith item #159)

In 1998, Molleen Matsumura did a study and found that, "of Americans in the 12 largest Christian denominations, 89.6% belong to churches that support evolution education." I don't think that's a fair statistic necessarily and wonder how she really researched that, but I do think it represents the truth that most Christian denominations, at least the major ones, support evolution education.

I know the official stance of the United Methodist Church is virtually the same as the Catholic Church. I'm sure it's very similar in Episcopal, Presbyterian, Orthodox, and many other churches. I'm not sure exactly where they stand and what their documents say, so I don't want to say EXACTLY what their stance is regarding evolution/creationism, but know they support evolution education and that evolution is not counter to their teachings.

Matt, who also loves to study Theology.
post #22 of 30
The thing to keep in mind when talking about a "Christian" "Montessori" school is that there is: christian; then there is Christian; then you have CHRISTIAN. Of course, also there is "montesorri"; montessori; and Montessori.

You need to ask lots and lots of questions it's the only way to know which you are looking at.
post #23 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattBronsil View Post
This is sort of off topic and maybe it should be split into a separate thread in a different forum, an admin would have to do that, so here goes.

I'll begin with the Catholic Church since it's probably the largest. The Catholic Church's official position is basically that evolution and Catholicism are not in conflict with each other, though it refuses to say either way whether or not a Catholic should believe in evolution or creationism. (Nor should it really dictate that doctrine). Darwin's work was published about 10 or 15 years before Papal Infallibility was established under Pope Pius IX. (I can't think of exact dates here). Even under Papal Infallibility, which has actually only been used a few times - Immaculate Conception and Assumption of Mary (2 things that distinguish doctrinally between Protestants and Catholics), there is no indication of any statement regarding evolution, even though it was likely to be a hot topic around that time.

The Catholic Church didn't really say much of anything until the 1950s, about 100 years later, under Pope Pius XII. He wrote an encyclical (just a fancy name for a Pope Letter) that stated:

"the Teaching Authority of the Church does not forbid that, in conformity with the present state of human sciences and sacred theology, research and discussions, on the part of men experienced in both fields, take place with regard to the doctrine of evolution, in as far as it inquires into the origin of the human body as coming from pre-existent and living matter—for the Catholic faith obliges us to hold that souls are immediately created by God. However this must be done in such a way that the reasons for both opinions, that is, those favorable and those unfavorable to evolution, be weighed and judged with the necessary seriousness, moderation and measure, and provided that all are prepared to submit to the judgment of the Church, to whom Christ has given the mission of interpreting authentically the Sacred Scriptures and of defending the dogmas of faithful. Some however rashly transgress this liberty of discussion, when they act as if the origin of the human body from pre-existing and living matter were already completely certain and proved by the facts which have been discovered up to now and by reasoning on those facts, and as if there were nothing in the sources of divine revelation which demands the greatest moderation and caution in this question"

So, in other words, souls are immediately created by God. The idea of evolution is something that should be studied and it does not go against the teachings of the Church.

The idea of one person (Adam) being our ancestor is addressed by Pope Pius XII. He rejects other ideas because it "does not appear to be true," which means more investigation is needed and, at that time, the official stance is that there was at least one original man through which original sin has been passed down.

John Paul II, one of my favorite Popes, said in 1996:
"Today, more than a half-century after the appearance of that encyclical (of Pius XII), some new findings lead us toward the recognition of evolution as more than a hypothesis. In fact it is remarkable that this theory has had progressively greater influence on the spirit of researchers, following a series of discoveries in different scholarly disciplines. The convergence in the results of these independent studies -- which was neither planned nor sought -- constitutes in itself a significant argument in favor of the theory."

The Catholic Church's official stance on faith and science states:

"...methodical research in all branches of knowledge, provided it is carried out in a truly scientific manner and does not override moral laws, can never conflict with the faith, because the things of the world and the things of faith derive from the same God. The humble and persevering investigator of the secrets of nature is being led, as it were, by the hand of God in spite of himself, for it is God, the conserver of all things, who made them what they are." (Catechism of the Catholic Faith item #159)

In 1998, Molleen Matsumura did a study and found that, "of Americans in the 12 largest Christian denominations, 89.6% belong to churches that support evolution education." I don't think that's a fair statistic necessarily and wonder how she really researched that, but I do think it represents the truth that most Christian denominations, at least the major ones, support evolution education.

I know the official stance of the United Methodist Church is virtually the same as the Catholic Church. I'm sure it's very similar in Episcopal, Presbyterian, Orthodox, and many other churches. I'm not sure exactly where they stand and what their documents say, so I don't want to say EXACTLY what their stance is regarding evolution/creationism, but know they support evolution education and that evolution is not counter to their teachings.

Matt, who also loves to study Theology.
Wow! That's a lot of info, thanks Matt.
There's some interesting stuff there, that I didn't know. I'm Church of England (UK) not Catholic, and not practising either, so probably not up to date on my theology!
I think the poster below you summed up what I was trying to say, better than I did. There are huge range of interpretations of what Montessori is and also on what Evolution/Creationism is (your notes say that to an effect, that there is no strict line as to what is the "right way", more an attempt to accept/amalgamate scientific research on evolution as long as it doesn't override moral law)

I think Montessori is totally open to interpretation, as is Christianity and I still stand by what I said, that in the strictest Christian schools, I can't see how Montessori, in the truest sense falls comfortably into an equalibrium at the 6-9 age range (or maybe I just went to particularly strict churches throughout my younger years?)


I'd love to continue this "debate"/learning though if you have time ever !
post #24 of 30
Thread Starter 
Whoa, nice essay Matt! Thanks. I just wanna know if they're going to lead my child to believe that she's imperfect and in need of "salvation". 'Cause I'm not such a fan of that line of thought, which seems to be the basis of Christianity, although there's a lot of "love thy neighbour" stuff that I'm pretty cool with. I can't see HOW you would get the sin stuff into a format that a 4-year-old could process, but I haven't put a lot of thought into devious religious teachings in the context of Montessori methods either.

Anyway, interesting theological discussion, please, carry on! I'll update after I've met with the director to let you all know what flavour of Christian this school is.
post #25 of 30
dd's does not have uniforms but few in the area do. it's very diverse so i think it's away to level the playing field. i wish there were uniforms as clothing is so freaking expensive, not to mention the what the wear dilemma.
post #26 of 30
I'll always be glad to discuss Theology/Religion/etc. Probably best if we do it on another forum unless it relates to a Montessori school (i.e. what would be appropriate for children this age to teach in the classroom?)

Is there a religion forum on here? I can look just as easily as you guys can, but have class in a minute and want to read through some of the posts.
post #27 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattBronsil View Post
Is there a religion forum on here?
Yes
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...splay.php?f=13
post #28 of 30
Thanks. Posted it in there, too. Feel free to discuss away on there if ya want.
post #29 of 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by spughy View Post
Whoa, nice essay Matt! Thanks. I just wanna know if they're going to lead my child to believe that she's imperfect and in need of "salvation". 'Cause I'm not such a fan of that line of thought, which seems to be the basis of Christianity, although there's a lot of "love thy neighbour" stuff that I'm pretty cool with. I can't see HOW you would get the sin stuff into a format that a 4-year-old could process, but I haven't put a lot of thought into devious religious teachings in the context of Montessori methods either.

Anyway, interesting theological discussion, please, carry on! I'll update after I've met with the director to let you all know what flavour of Christian this school is.
And that's why you really do need to talk to the school about the basis of their religious beliefs. The concept of Salvation, in the way I believe you're talking about it, is mainly an Evangelical Christian concept.

Catholicism and most of the mainline branches of Protestantism are not generally Evangelical churches. But often, when you find a church or a school that identifies as Christian without identifying as a denomination, the basis of belief is going to be Evangelical.
post #30 of 30
Thread Starter 
UPDATE

So, we went to visit the school yesterday for a full tour and it's very nice. The kids all seem happy and I am totally envious of the gr8-9 classroom - all comfy couches and guitars, but the kids were giving presentations to each other and actually looked interested to do it.

Anyway, I asked about the Christian bit and it's pretty much about acknowledging god, having fun plays at Christmas, and a "just the facts ma'am" approach to Christianity - namely there's this god feller, he had a son named Jesus, who was pretty keen on people being nice to each other, Jesus died and rose again, and there's a whole lotta love going round. I asked about original sin and whatnot and the director said "We don't do that sort of thing". So, I'm comfortable with it, and especially around Easter when they talk about rebirth and whatnot, it ties in very easily with my own pagan leanings and I don't think it'll confuse my DD at all.
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