questions for atheist parents...

[caitlinlea]

Hi everyone - I hope I am posting this in the right forum.

I have a son who is almost three. As he grows older and begins asking more and more questions about the world I've found myself thinking hard about how to answer some of the questions that will undoubtedly come up in the future. I am an atheist. How do you respond to your kids' questions about God and religion? I want to raise my son to question religious dogma, to be an independent thinker, but to be respectful of other people's cherished beliefs.

Another question......like most Americans, I grew up celebrating Christian holidays and have wonderful memories of those celebrations. I still enjoy celebrating those holidays (Christmas, Easter) for their pagan roots, but what about Santa Claus, etc? I loved believing in Santa as a kid, and even once I outgrew that belief it was still fun to pretend for my younger siblings. I'm curious how other families handle Santa. I had a rich imagination when I was younger and Santa, fairies, elves, mythical creatures played prominent roles in my fantasies.

I recently heard of a book called Parenting Beyond Belief......has anyone read it/found it helpful?

I'd appreciate any thoughts!

[zech13_9_goforgold]

Santa Clause is not a Christian figure, so go ahead and claim him. Encourage pretend.

[Thao]

Hi, I'm Buddhist which is an agnostic religion, so I'm in a similar boat as you... and because I was raised fundamentalist Christian, sometimes I've found it hard because I can't do things the way I was raised.

Basically I talk to our dd a LOT about science and religion and a whole variety of issues. She's sort of a geek and eats it up, which is great. She knows all about evolution and science's struggle to learn what we are and where we came from; also that science can't answer all the questions. I've told her all the Bible stories (I feel it is important for her to know them, partly because they are such an integral part of our culture and partly because they do teach good things) but I tell them as myth, not as truth. I also tell her stories of other religions, as much as I know. We talk about what they mean and why people might have come up with those stories. We talk about our values and why we hold them. Etc etc. Oh, and we celebrate all of the American holidays, but in a secular rather than religious way.

She is almost 9 now and starting to realize she is different from her friends. There was one incident at school where a kid told her if she doesn't believe in God she must believe in the devil . He wasn't being mean (he hasn't mentioned it since and still treats her as nice as usual, I think he was just shocked that a person might not believe in God) but because of this I have started being more proactive about getting her (and I) into a community of like-minded people. Right now the kids are not being mean to her about her beliefs, but I wouldn't be surprised if she get hassled about it in the older grades. I want her to have a community where she can go and feel like she fits in, to support her.

[dnr3301]

we actually do Santa very similarly to how we do religion, it's something that is important to some people, it's what people believe, it's not our job to tell them differently.

Churches are places people go to talk about how they believe in God.

God is sort of a person that some people belive started the world and is in charge of the world, sort of. No one knows who or what God really is, because no one has met or seen God, but people believe what they want, and it's not our job to tell them they are wrong. We can talk about what we believe, but we don't know if we are right any more than they do.

DH and I also try to talk about what "we" believe, not what our family believes, because really, it's up to my kids to believe what they will. So we do a lot of "what do you think?" as answers to their questions. "Mama, how did the first person get on Earth?" "what do you think?" "I think..." "huh. I have absolutely no idea, since I wasn't there. [and I don't tell them this, but really, I don't care either] Some people think _____ and others think _______."

[Magelet]

My parents raised me in an atheist household. We celebrated Christmas, Easter, Hanukkah and Passover. Christmas meant presents, family, a big meal, and Santa Clause (the bringer of presents). there was nothing religious about it, except that we sang some standard Christmas carols, because they were fun to sing. I'm not christian in any way, though I am religious, but I still sing Christmas carols because they're fun holiday songs. Easter meant the Easter bunny, so more presents, (little ones, and candy), dyeing eggs, an "easter egg hunt" (usually candy, they didn't smell if they weren't found). Hanukkah was one little present, LOTS of good food and family, and passover was a fun story, and more family, and a treasure hunt where we got paid to find the matzo.

It worked pretty well. There wasn't really any religion involved (except my relatives saying a couple prayers on passover, which my mom complained about but didn't talk about why it bothered her).

I DO wish that my parents had been more open about talking to me about religion, and other peoples' choices and beliefs, and more open to the idea of me being religious if I wanted (which you could still do while teaching your child to question dogma. I'm not really big on most dogma, but the spirituality of judaism/paganism is important to me, as well as some of the rituals that I choose)

I didn't get teased much in school for not being religious, only for being ignorant about other people's religions, but I think that teaching about what other people believe, or talking about it is also important, just from a relating to people stand-point. Just my two or three cents.

[MrsRefney]

OP: Parenting Beyond Belief is a GREAT book. I reread it every once in a while to prepare me for when our daughter is old enough to talk to about these things. I recommend it highly.

[siobhang]

We go to a UU church and our raising our kids as atheists. We celebrate Christmas, but not Easter (okay, so I get my kids easter baskets but that is only because of the chocolate bunnies). I teach RE at the church for the preschoolers (been teaching for four years). At our church, we do not talk about God or religions other than UU in this class - the older classes talk about ideas around God and other religions.

For my kids, we define God as "what people say when the world seems bigger than them". For this age, I think it is really important to give them an answer so they know how to parse the multitude of God references in every day life. I read somewhere that if we do not give our kids a definition of God by age five or so, they will create one for themselves, based alone on all the cultural references surrounding us.

We also make sure they know that people talk about God as though he were real but he is pretend, like some of the stories we read. The other day I was talking with my 5 year old about "pretend people" vs "real people". We also talked about "real people but pretend stories" which is how we define the miracles of Jesus, Mohamed, Moses, etc. These stories are important lessons on how to live, and they are just as important as many other stories, like 1984 or To kill a mockingbird or any other strongly ethically focused stories which help us explore right and wrong in our world. Things do not have to be literally true in order to be meaningful.

I need to read parenting beyond belief.

another key concept we try to instill is critical thinking and the definition of evidence. What constitutes evidence worthy of belief? How do I know that the evidence is worthy? What are the parameters of trust, and how can we verify them? These are big concepts, but a lot of it is making sure that when we tell kids facts, we also tell them how we know, how scientists know, and when we don't know something for sure, but we are guessing or intuiting.

[caitlinlea]

Thank you all for sharing your suggestions and experiences! I really appreciate it. Something I struggle with a lot is my hesitation to be open about being an atheist.....I never lie about my beliefs but I almost always refrain from talking about them. I worry about my son being persecuted for similar beliefs when he is older (assuming he might share my beliefs, which of course isn't certain).

Siobhang, I was the pianist/accompanist at a large UU church in Colorado for the past 8 years. I used to bring my son with me. We moved to Oregon last summer to be closer to my family and I miss the church very much. Since we moved and it has been hard to find work in our field (my husband and I are both musicians) I accepted a job as an organist at an Episcopal church. The people are wonderful, but I am really struggling in my role there - I certainly don't feel like I should be open about my views. My position is interim and they'll ask me soon if I will apply for a permanent position and I don't think I will. Anyway, I digress.......

Thanks again everyone!

[siobhang]

Originally Posted by caitlinlea

Thank you all for sharing your suggestions and experiences! I really appreciate it. Something I struggle with a lot is my hesitation to be open about being an atheist.....I never lie about my beliefs but I almost always refrain from talking about them. I worry about my son being persecuted for similar beliefs when he is older (assuming he might share my beliefs, which of course isn't certain).

I hear ya. There is real and visible discrimination against atheists in this country. It is actually a reason why we joined a church - as "cover" for my kids to deal with the low level religious bigotry that they are too young to really handle right now.

Siobhang, I was the pianist/accompanist at a large UU church in Colorado for the past 8 years. I used to bring my son with me. We moved to Oregon last summer to be closer to my family and I miss the church very much. Since we moved and it has been hard to find work in our field (my husband and I are both musicians) I accepted a job as an organist at an Episcopal church. The people are wonderful, but I am really struggling in my role there - I certainly don't feel like I should be open about my views. My position is interim and they'll ask me soon if I will apply for a permanent position and I don't think I will. Anyway, I digress.......

Course, there is a long history of atheism and doubt in the Anglican church - just ask the Bishop of Durham...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Edward_Jenkins

[NicaG]

Ha, I was also going to suggest that some Episcopal clergy might consider themselves atheists (or at least agnostic), so you shouldn't worry about being "outed" or judged.

I was raised in a non-religious household (I converted to Christianity as an adult and am now an Episcopalian). We never talked about beliefs, or if I tried to bring it up, my parents changed the subject. I do wish my parents hadn't been so scared of the topic. It was really taboo, and I would have appreciated more open discussion. I also think it's important to expose kids to basic beliefs/ideas of the major religions, because it's important to a lot of people and the Judeo/Christian texts are the foundation of Western culture in so many ways. Seems like UU churches do a good job with their religious education, exposing kids to new ideas without insisting on beliefs. Good luck in your journey!

[bella_stranger]

love.

Originally Posted by siobhang

We go to a UU church and our raising our kids as atheists. We celebrate Christmas, but not Easter (okay, so I get my kids easter baskets but that is only because of the chocolate bunnies). I teach RE at the church for the preschoolers (been teaching for four years). At our church, we do not talk about God or religions other than UU in this class - the older classes talk about ideas around God and other religions.

For my kids, we define God as "what people say when the world seems bigger than them". For this age, I think it is really important to give them an answer so they know how to parse the multitude of God references in every day life. I read somewhere that if we do not give our kids a definition of God by age five or so, they will create one for themselves, based alone on all the cultural references surrounding us.

We also make sure they know that people talk about God as though he were real but he is pretend, like some of the stories we read. The other day I was talking with my 5 year old about "pretend people" vs "real people". We also talked about "real people but pretend stories" which is how we define the miracles of Jesus, Mohamed, Moses, etc. These stories are important lessons on how to live, and they are just as important as many other stories, like 1984 or To kill a mockingbird or any other strongly ethically focused stories which help us explore right and wrong in our world. Things do not have to be literally true in order to be meaningful.

I need to read parenting beyond belief.

another key concept we try to instill is critical thinking and the definition of evidence. What constitutes evidence worthy of belief? How do I know that the evidence is worthy? What are the parameters of trust, and how can we verify them? These are big concepts, but a lot of it is making sure that when we tell kids facts, we also tell them how we know, how scientists know, and when we don't know something for sure, but we are guessing or intuiting.

that's awesome.... my daughter is only 2, but as an ex-"believer", I get anxious about what she will face when she's older, and how to prepare and support her. I need to save this!

[philomom]

Well, no Santa here. We do a big "soup and solstice" celebration for our friends.

Children do crave ritual and tradition. I don't feel however, that you need to borrow from the xtians to do so.

[lach]

Originally Posted by caitlinlea

Since we moved and it has been hard to find work in our field (my husband and I are both musicians) I accepted a job as an organist at an Episcopal church. The people are wonderful, but I am really struggling in my role there - I certainly don't feel like I should be open about my views. My position is interim and they'll ask me soon if I will apply for a permanent position and I don't think I will. Anyway, I digress.......

I used to go to a church where the music director was Jewish I guess it depends on the specific congregation (I know some Episcopalians are more pious than others), but I wouldn't cut off your nose to spite your face, if jobs are hard to come by!

I was raised an atheist, but we celebrated Christmas and Easter. Easter was pretty much just Easter baskets, a new dress, and going out to brunch. Christmas we'd decorate up the house, sing carols, get presents, eat a big meal. I agree that kids love rituals and celebrations.

[EFmom]

Dh takes the kids to the UU church. I joined, but it's not really for me. I'm just done with the whole religion thing, but the UU church does have some good sexuality education, and they spend a year with the youth going around to different places of worship so the kids find out what other people believe and I think that's good. There are also some absolutely amazingly brilliant and talented kids there that my kids have fun with.

We talk about many people in many cultures have a need to explain things they don't understand or don't want to understand (like death) through mythology and the supernatural. We talk about a variety of mythological systems, from the ancient to the modern.

We stress science and critical thinking, and like a pp, we discuss what constitutes evidence and what does not, and what constitutes faith. When they get a little older, I think we will talk about how Christian scriptures came to be recorded and accepted into the canon and how some didn't make the cut for a variety of reasons. I can see reading "Jesus Misquoted" when they are teenagers. I'll spend more time on Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular since most of my family is Catholic, and I don't want them to be confused by what they hear from relatives.

We do major holidays in a secular way. I don't feel hypocritical doing Christmas and Easter as they have their roots in much earlier celebrations.

My kids are pretty articulate and able to defend their points of view. My eight year old was being grilled by several of her peers earlier in the year when they were making their First Communion about why she didn't believe in god. She was unfazed and explained herself quite well, but I'm sure on some level she was jealous of the fluffy white dresses and gifts of jewelry that the other kids got. They also have a few atheist/agnostic friends and that helps.

The only thing that I really find hard is death. Not for me, but for the kids. We had to put our dog down last year, and it would have been so, so easy to fall into the gone to heaven thing to make us all feel better.

[bella_stranger]

ooh, more great advice and wisdom... thanks ladies

my partner was raised unitarian universalist , dabbled with buddhism, and is now atheist along with me (I was raised in the salvation army--woah!!--, and at 17 realised it was a bunch of.... well it wasn't for me). I still appreciate some of the spiritual and traditional advice offered by religions... but after years going to church every wednesday and sunday and what not, I just don't know if I want that to be a part of our lives as a family. I think that it would be great for her to have a group of similar-minded peers at a UU church, but I don't know if I could commit to an every-sunday sort of situation, you know?

I was thinking santa claus would be a good lesson for her (when she is older) in how people and young children are susceptible to suggestion by adults and peers or something... but I worry that might backfire or be hypocritical?? thoughts??

[Jessy1019]

I've explained god to my daughter as an imaginary friend some people have -- only they think he's really real. I've explained that a lot of people believe in him even though there's no evidence he exists -- that sometimes when people can't understand why something is happening in the world, they say it's because god made it happen. Church is a place where people go because they believe god commands them to go there every week, and also a place where people think they can talk to god. It's also a big business.

We do Santa and xmas -- all about presents and extra time together as a family. Easter's the same . . . the bunny, egg hunts, a big family meal. This year, we talked about some of the religious aspects (since I was wishing people a "Happy Zombie Jesus Day!" and my daughter asked what that was about). In addition to christianity, we've talked about some of the other major religions, and I'm sure we'll talk more in depth as the kids get older.

So far, Rylie is six and has never had an issue being treated badly for being an atheist. She's also a really confident kid and just thinks people are ignorant for talking about god like he's real . . . that's basically the attitude she's had whenever it's come up among friends. We've talked about being respectful some, but mostly, I am really glad she's comfortable speaking her mind.

[Lune]

Originally Posted by siobhang

For my kids, we define God as "what people say when the world seems bigger than them". For this age, I think it is really important to give them an answer so they know how to parse the multitude of God references in every day life. I read somewhere that if we do not give our kids a definition of God by age five or so, they will create one for themselves, based alone on all the cultural references surrounding us.

We also make sure they know that people talk about God as though he were real but he is pretend, like some of the stories we read. The other day I was talking with my 5 year old about "pretend people" vs "real people". We also talked about "real people but pretend stories" which is how we define the miracles of Jesus, Mohamed, Moses, etc. These stories are important lessons on how to live, and they are just as important as many other stories, like 1984 or To kill a mockingbird or any other strongly ethically focused stories which help us explore right and wrong in our world. Things do not have to be literally true in order to be meaningful.

Thank you for posting this!

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by Jessy1019

So far, Rylie is six and has never had an issue being treated badly for being an atheist. She's also a really confident kid and just thinks people are ignorant for talking about god like he's real . . . that's basically the attitude she's had whenever it's come up among friends. We've talked about being respectful some, but mostly, I am really glad she's comfortable speaking her mind.

Question - if you want your daughter and her beliefs as an atheist to be respected by others why would you encourage her to be disrespectful of those whose beliefs differ - just because a person's beliefs differ from your own does not make them ignorant.

[smeisnotapirate]

Originally Posted by TCMoulton

Question - if you want your daughter and her beliefs as an atheist to be respected by others why would you encourage her to be disrespectful of those whose beliefs differ - just because a person's beliefs differ from your own does not make them ignorant.

:

I'm not Christian, but I don't see how things like this and wishing people a "Happy Zombie Jesus Day" are at all respectful or going to help a kid be respectful of differing opinions.

[EFmom]

Originally Posted by TCMoulton

Question - if you want your daughter and her beliefs as an atheist to be respected by others why would you encourage her to be disrespectful of those whose beliefs differ - just because a person's beliefs differ from your own does not make them ignorant.

She said she talked with her child about being respectful.