Reconciling feminism w/Christianity s/o: Poll for Catholics - Page 2

[spero]

Originally Posted by Fay

I've always wondered when exactly female deacons were forbidden in the early church?

I'm guessing that it was around the time that priests came on the scene.

In the early church, there were no priests. Each locality had a bishop, and the deacons assisted the bishop (probably leading services in the home churches, since there were no "churches" - as we know them - either).

[Fay]

Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove

It all depends on your translation. I use Douay-Rheims. Yours is...?

Mine is the Greek New Testament. It is not a translation. I'm a Greek & Latin teacher.

[PatienceAndLove]

Originally Posted by Fay

Romans 16:1, "I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Kenchrea." Paul uses the Greek word "diakonos," the same word for a liturgical deacon. I've always wondered when exactly female deacons were forbidden in the early church?

Epistle Of Saint Paul To The Romans 16:1
And I commend to you Phebe, our sister, who is in the ministry of the church, that is in Cenchrae

It all depends on your translation. I use Douay-Rheims. Yours is...?

[PatienceAndLove]

Here's my question- if, in one Epistle, Paul is commending us to a woman (Romans 16:1) and then tells women to keep silent (1 Cor 14:34,35)- what is the truth?

My take, and what I remember being taught- it is the ministry of women to minister to other women and to children, outside of the Church. Men, being the the traditional priesthood holders, and spiritual head of the household, would minister to their wives and to the community at large.

BTW- the choir shouldn't be on the altar. It makes the choir entertainment and not accompaniment. IMHO

[spero]

Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove

BTW- the choir shouldn't be on the altar. It makes the choir entertainment and not accompaniment. IMHO[/COLOR]

Well, when there literally is no other place for the choir, then you either deal with it or go without liturgical miusic. Which IMO is unacceptable.

[spero]

Originally Posted by Fay

Mine is the Greek New Testament. It is not a translation. I'm a Greek & Latin teacher.

[PatienceAndLove]

Originally Posted by spero

Well, when there literally is no other place for the choir, then you either deal with it or go without liturgical miusic. Which IMO is unacceptable.

*shrug* then I have no answer. I have never seen such a situation, but I have seen many a choir loft go unused.

[enkmom]

We don't get choir music very much anymore. Since they aren't allowed on the altar anymore, there is no room for them. Our church was built in the 1960's, and there is no choir loft in sight. The choice was putting people in folding chairs in the aisles or having a choir, so the Fire Marshall made the decision. I really don't like not having a choir on Easter or Christmas, and I never considered the choir to be entertainment. I find the choir always enhanced my worship experience.

Now we have an electric piano and one cantor. At noon mass, we have electric piano, electric drum set, and 2 singers. All squished into the corner where the acoustics are terrible and no can really follow along. It is a sorry state of affairs, especially contrasted with the joyful noise that used to be made when the choir was up on the altar.

[spero]

What we wouldn't give for an actual choir loft!

My church is a small, one-story mission parish that barely seats 175. The entire front of the sanctuary is altar, with the organ tucked right up against it and the first pews barely 4 feet away. It's a tight space, and we have to make the most of it. The only place for the choir is the space directly in front of Mary's altar, on the left side. The Tabernacle is on the right, where the Altar Servers have their seats. The Sacristy and the Confessional are in the back, at the entrance, on either side of the tiny vestibule. The storage closets and cleaning supplies are in the Confessional.

We have to be creative with our space, but no way are we giving up liturgical music.

Since we're on the subject of women on the Altar, let me ask you this ... if you believe that women should never be on the Altar, should only men do the cleaning there, then? 'Cause that just isn't gonna happen here!

[PatienceAndLove]

Originally Posted by spero

Since we're on the subject of women on the Altar, let me ask you this ... if you believe that women should never be on the Altar, should only men do the cleaning there, then? 'Cause that just isn't gonna happen here!

No. I am referring to during the Solemn Sacrifice of the Mass.

[Freud]

Originally Posted by Fay

Mine is the Greek New Testament. It is not a translation. I'm a Greek & Latin teacher.

Sorry to butt in here, but this is

[spero]

Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove

No. I am referring to during the Solemn Sacrifice of the Mass.

The Altar is the Altar, whether it's being used for Mass or not. The Tabernacle is there, the Real Presence is there. So why the distinction? Is the Altar somehow "holier" during Mass, than at other times?

[PatienceAndLove]

Originally Posted by spero

The Altar is the Altar, whether it's being used for Mass or not. The Tabernacle is there, the Real Presence is there. So why the distinction? Is the Altar somehow "holier" during Mass, than at other times?

No. It is just as holy outside of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass as it is within it. However, it is our vocation as women to support our priests, and foster vocations within our young men, outside of the Mass- no be on the Altar during it.

But since you believe in female ordination, and I do not, I believe that this is a pointless discussion, because I don't think either of us will sway the other.

Have a good evening, spero, and God Bless.

[PatienceAndLove]

Originally Posted by Freud

Sorry to butt in here, but this is

It is from me as well. I wish I was cool enough to read Latin or Greek.

[Bluegoat]

Not to butt in, but what does it mean to have the choir "on the altar?" Do you mean in the sanctuary? I once knew of a priest who put his little dog on the altar, but a whole choir seems a bit of a stretch.

We usually have a choir outside of the sanctuary and above the nave, where the pews face each other like in a monastery or college chapel. Is it different in Roman Catholic churches?

[PatienceAndLove]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

Not to butt in, but what does it mean to have the choir "on the altar?" Do you mean in the sanctuary? I once knew of a priest who put his little dog on the altar, but a whole choir seems a bit of a stretch.

We usually have a choir outside of the sanctuary and above the nave, where the pews face each other like in a monastery or college chapel. Is it different in Roman Catholic churches?

Depends on the Church.
Some places, like my old Church, had the choir off to the side of the Altar, but still within the Sanctuary, in front of the St. Joseph Altar. Another had them in not actually within the Sanctuary, but off to the side in the Mary Altar alcove. Whatever the case, the choir is in front of, and facing, the congregation.

[Fay]

Originally Posted by PatienceAndLove

It is from me as well. I wish I was cool enough to read Latin or Greek.

I am the least cool person you could ever possibly meet. I'm a lifelong nerd, descended from nerds, and married to a nerd. But I'll teach Greek and Latin to anyone who expresses an interest...I wish more Catholics took an interest in learning the history/historical languages of our faith.

[PatienceAndLove]

Originally Posted by Fay

I am the least cool person you could ever possibly meet. I'm a lifelong nerd, descended from nerds, and married to a nerd. But I'll teach Greek and Latin to anyone who expresses an interest...I wish more Catholics took an interest in learning the history/historical languages of our faith.

To me- all nerds are cool. You know... since I AM one!
I love to meet people who know stuff I don't, because I learn something. And the fact that I get to learn something new from someone I never met makes that person ridiculously awesome.