A circ talk with my 12 year old niece

[robertandenith]

My sister is here visiting from Panama and she has a 12 year old daughter who is also my Goddaughter, I have been talking to my sister about my intactivism and how involved I am and details of the procedure, etc. So my niece have been over hearing all this talk the whole time.... Now I have to be clear, my sister's husband is intact so to her, circ is not the norm.

My niece later asked me while i was changing my baby's diaper:

Niece: What part of the body people are cutting?
Me: What? do you mean the baby?
Niece: Yes. Are they cutting something down there?
Me: Yes they do. They cut the tip and this part also. (pointing my baby's parts)
Niece: (shocked - and concerned) Why do they do that?!?!
Me: They say is cleaner, but of course, if I plug your ENTIRE nails, your fingers will be cleaner since you will have no nails to clean right? Imagine cutting that part with no anesthesia? That's what they do.
Niece: What?!?! (her eyes popped right out and there was really a sad face in her) How do they do that? Do they tie him down? They should give something for the pain at least...

Me: Yes the baby is tied down for this but most of the times here in US won't give any pain meds, but what about if he wants to keep that part?

At this point she was almost speechless and couldn't believed what I was saying. AND I just recently found out that Panama hospitals are NOT using ANY pain meds AT ALL for infant circ

Niece: Of course nobody can ask them if they want it to cut it off because they are babies! Oh my God, poor babies...

My sister later asked us what we were talking about and I told her. We then told her that his dad is intact but my dad is not. She remembered when I was arguing with my dad about circ and how he said it was 'healthier' to get it done. She asked me if that was the same thing I was arguing with him. Of course my sister just found out my dad is circ () and she has dispelled the myths of the cleanliness issue with her own daughter!

I later told her that I hope when she becomes a mother to protect her son and let him be the way he is. She couldn't agree more!

...just wanted to share

[RJones1204]

Hehehe: You probably helped save a baby that wont be born for 10 or more years! That is wonderful to think about!

[latinalonestar]

What a great discussion! Just think of all the little intactivist we can raise if we all have these discussions with our children.

[Raene]

Thanks for sharing!

[perspective]

"Me: Yes they do. They cut the tip and this part also. (pointing my baby's parts)"

What were you pointing at. I assume when you said "tip" you actually meant the foreskin. What were you talking about when you said "and this part also"?

[urchin_grey]

:

My sister and I had a similar talk with our two youngest sisters before our nephew was born (somehow it didn't come up after DS was born). They are now almost 16 and almost 13 and they are 100% against circ. The 15yo even asked a bunch of her guy friends if they were circ'd or not and a lot of them aren't! She was like "see, mom, not everyone is circ'd like you think", complete with eyeroll.

[Nandi]

Good news! It shouldn't be a secret what is done to the poor babes.

[talk de jour]

Originally Posted by perspective

"Me: Yes they do. They cut the tip and this part also. (pointing my baby's parts)"

What were you pointing at. I assume when you said "tip" you actually meant the foreskin. What were you talking about when you said "and this part also"?

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. Kind of sounds like you told her they amputate the head of the penis, which is untrue.

[mntnmom]

Originally Posted by talk de jour

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. Kind of sounds like you told her they amputate the head of the penis, which is untrue.

When you look at a baby's penis, the foreskin looks like the tip. You can't SEE the head. The FORE skin sticks out in FRONT of the head...I think that's why it's called a foreskin.

[robertandenith]

mntnmom you are exactly right, I didn't want to be too graphic in here since I have received several 'violations' alert in here, so yes I mentioned the foreskin and the skin around his 'part'. I am even scared now of saying the word

I was so happy to have that talk with my niece, since she seems interested in boys now and puberty is present. It's amazing how compassionate most teenagers are, you don't really need to go into too much detail and they surely opposed to circ an infant without putting too much thought, as opposed to certain adult friends

[Night_Nurse]

Originally Posted by talk de jour

Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. Kind of sounds like you told her they amputate the head of the penis, which is untrue.

Except when circ goes really wrong. Some botched circs do result in total or partial glans amputation.

[Dave2GA]

Night nurse is right. I am working on cases numbers 4 and 5 where part of the glans was cut off.

[latinalonestar]

Originally Posted by Dave2GA

Night nurse is right. I am working on cases numbers 4 and 5 where part of the glans was cut off.

Poor, poor babies!

If only humans still had instincts...

[talk de jour]

Originally Posted by Night_Nurse

Except when circ goes really wrong. Some botched circs do result in total or partial glans amputation.

BOTCHED circs. Not the procedure itself.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by talk de jour

BOTCHED circs. Not the procedure itself.

You see though no procedure, whether it is circumcision or heart by pass (for example), is designed to have complications but they do occur. The problem then is what do you tell the child who suffered the complication, especially when the procedure had no practical reason to be performed. At least for all other cases I can think of I can take solace in the fact that there was a clear indication to take the risk. In virtually all cases, that isn't so with circumcision. Clear clinical indication changes this equation.

[talk de jour]

Originally Posted by jwhispers

You see though no procedure, whether it is circumcision or heart by pass (for example), is designed to have complications but they do occur. The problem then is what do you tell the child who suffered the complication, especially when the procedure had no practical reason to be performed. At least for all other cases I can think of I can take solace in the fact that there was a clear indication to take the risk. In virtually all cases, that isn't so with circumcision. Clear clinical indication changes this equation.

Huh? I fail to see the relevance here. We are talking about explainging the MECHANICS of the PROCEDURE to a CHILD.

What you are saying is because some heart bypasses involve an accidental scalpel slip and death due to coronary hemorrhage is that we should tell a child that coronary bypasses involve cutting the heart open. Which would be cruel and incorrect, even if it IS an unfortunate complication.

[thixle]

Originally Posted by robertandenith

mntnmom you are exactly right, I didn't want to be too graphic in here since I have received several 'violations' alert in here, so yes I mentioned the foreskin and the skin around his 'part'. I am even scared now of saying the word

Well, now, I thought the point was you had to say the "scientifically" correct terms (aka- no slang). Seems pretty silly to even have this forum if you can't say: "they cut all of the skin off from the tip to about here, which is where the glans ends and shaft begins."

Anywhoo, I totally got what you were saying- they cut off the skin from here to here. And yes, everyone should know there are possible complicaions. Guess I'm used to that kind of talk being the norm since most of the people I explain circ to think it is just like cutting the umbilical cord.

[Fellow Traveler]

Originally Posted by talk de jour

Huh? I fail to see the relevance here. We are talking about explainging the MECHANICS of the PROCEDURE to a CHILD.

What you are saying is because some heart bypasses involve an accidental scalpel slip and death due to coronary hemorrhage is that we should tell a child that coronary bypasses involve cutting the heart open. Which would be cruel and incorrect, even if it IS an unfortunate complication.

I think when describing circumcision especially it is necessary to illustrate why it is wrong. And part of the reason is that it can lead to severe complications for no practical or rational reason. So yes I might explain it like that. 'Circumcision is this..(simple sentence). but it's wrong because (a much longer paragraph).

The only reason I pointed this out is because the thread turned a bit to complications and at least to me it seemed as if you were trying to divorce the complications from the procedure which is a common problem with discussing this issue. I see this every time I read about a boy who suffered severe complications or death, they always say what you said that 'it's not the circumcision but just some unfortunate event' which is bull. One might say only 'botched' circs lead to complications but what good is that to the person who drew the short straw?

I'd say circumcision is a complication but I often come halfway though and might describe it as damaging the penis more than expected.

[robertandenith]

wow I couldn't agree so much, all circ are botched