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another perspective on "discretion"

post #1 of 51
Thread Starter 
(My friend Jess posted this discussion of "discretion" on our local parenting group and I found it intriguing and thought-provoking. She's given me permission to share it here. Jen)

Lactivism and the big D

It seems like whenever there is a discussion about breastfeeding in public, eventually things get down to this: somebody is offended by the sight of a breast, and they think the owner of the breast should respect their feelings by not baring their breast. Then the D word comes out: discreet. And it's almost always a breastfeeder who uses it first: *I'm* discreet, *I* don't condone those titty-flashing drama queens with their nipply agendas! It can be done modestly! Look at me, I'm a breastfeeder, I don't let it all hang out!

I've done it, too, and it galls me. We're trying to gently convince the offended person that their big bad fear of total XXX boobage doesn't reflect reality. We're trying to reassure them that really, most breastfeeders don't show that much breast, so cool it on the anti-indecent exposure campaign!

Problem is, we're shooting ourselves in the foot. By using the big D, or dancing around it in any way by trying to prove how *modest* we are, by talking about how the baby covers up the breasts, reassuring them that nothing really shows and that they've probably seen a million cases of NIP and never noticed it...we're allowing them to define modesty and discretion. We're playing their game and agreeing with them that breasts should not be seen. We're selling out our fellow breastfeeders - the ones who are unhampered by silly social conditioning and don't feel self-conscious popping a breast over the neck of a tank top, or who just can't hide those 38Gs, or who inadvertently get exposed by a curious 8 month old taking a look around. It's even worse when the pro-NIP side starts to agree with the "just be prepared with a bottle or go to the bathroom!" side by speculating about the motives of the woman in the news story du jour. We weren't there, we aren't her. Assuming that she was trying to stir up a ruckus is blaming the victim.

So, I beg of you, can we please drop the discretion language and stand up for our fellow nursing mamas, no matter how they get the milk into their baby's mouths? (I'm not pointing any fingers, just asking if you'll join me in watching what we say.) When we use it, we allow the anti-NIP people to put us on the defensive and define the terms of the debate. Our bottom line should be this: babies have a right to food and comfort when and where they need it. How much of the breast is bared in the process should matter to no one but its owner. So let's stop talking about how discreet we are, ok?
post #2 of 51
Exactly!! :

And yes a million times to this-
Quote:
Our bottom line should be this: babies have a right to food and comfort when and where they need it. How much of the breast is bared in the process should matter to no one but its owner. So let's stop talking about how discreet we are, ok?
post #3 of 51
Excellent!!
post #4 of 51
Great post (er, the OP, I mean)!
post #5 of 51
GREAT post.

There are wackos in ANY movement. People who go way into an extreme. But, 99.999% of the people NIP are seriously just interested in feeding their child, w/o trying to make a statement, rile passers-by. Of course there are some people who ARE drama/publicity seekers, but these are SUCH the minority.

Most people just want to live a peaceful existence without harassment.

I am so sad about that mom BF while driving ---- and there she is on the news -- she is that .001%, and now some people will extrapolate that to the rest of us normal, regular "just let us nurse in PEACE w/o stares" moms. We are so 'into' our crazy BF-agenda that we would put our child's LIFE at risk . . .
post #6 of 51
WOW thanks for posting this its really well written and makes many good points!
post #7 of 51
Very well said.
post #8 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by justJen View Post
So, I beg of you, can we please drop the discretion language and stand up for our fellow nursing mamas, no matter how they get the milk into their baby's mouths? ... When we use it, we allow the anti-NIP people to put us on the defensive and define the terms of the debate.
Thanks for sharing this post, justJen, and please convey my thanks to your friend Jess for writing it.

What really galls me about this whole "discretion" debate among lactivists around the Asheville Denny's case is that North Carolina's law explicitly states that nipple exposure doesn't matter. Yes, I know, the law is toothless without a penalty provision and does not in fact prevent any private property owner from turning a mother into a trespasser for breastfeeding ... but the language of the law is still clear on the matter of degree of breast exposure.

When a significant portion of the allegedly pro-breastfeeding community can't rally behind one of its own b/c of rumors and hearsay saying she was too exposed -- in a state with a law on the books that explicitly provides otherwise -- we are saying that we don't even believe in the toothless, ineffective law that we have. We will never get the laws we actually deserve to protect breastfeeding in public -- nor the public acceptance -- if this is our response to the Asheville Denny's case.
post #9 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by songbh View Post
When a significant portion of the allegedly pro-breastfeeding community can't rally behind one of its own b/c of rumors and hearsay saying she was too exposed -- in a state with a law on the books that explicitly provides otherwise -- we are saying that we don't even believe in the toothless, ineffective law that we have. We will never get the laws we actually deserve to protect breastfeeding in public -- nor the public acceptance -- if this is our response to the Asheville Denny's case.

For some of us in the allegedly pro-breastfeeding community in WNC, the issue was not the big "D" but concerns over the immediate push to national nurse-in without much info to go on, or attempting other measures prior. Last I knew, our local LLL wasn't contacted and the work of First Right was openly rebuked. Yes, there were a few mamas who fit the bill you describe, but the poor turnout (for this town) may be more due to the lack of direct communication to the vast network of NFL types here. And maybe some, like me, felt uncertain that waving a sign would accomplish anything other than getting attention.

On the discretion issue, I am in agreement--we cannot define some styles of nursing as acceptable and others not. It is counterproductive to the goal of breastfeeding normalcy to draw this line. No one should be told how to nurse.

But I also think when we get into a "you are with me or against me" paradigm, we're hurting our cause. We need room for differences of opinion--an openness to various perspectives with compassionate understanding even when we disagree. Not easy, but I think the diplomatic tone of the OP here is a good start.
post #10 of 51
post #11 of 51
amen sister:
post #12 of 51
Hi again,

I hope I'm not crossing "the line" again, but I keep getting the feeling like I'm being misunderstood. I'll try this one more time and then I think I'm done.

Quote:
On the discretion issue, I am in agreement--we cannot define some styles of nursing as acceptable and others not. It is counterproductive to the goal of breastfeeding normalcy to draw this line. No one should be told how to nurse.
I just don't get this way of thinking. Do you (general) REALLY think that any way a mother chooses to breastfeed her baby is OK in public? What if she completely unbuttons her shirt? What if she took her shirt off completely? Is any way really OK with you (general)?

It is perfectly logical to me to be able to draw a line in what I think is acceptable in pubic and in whom I will support. I have more sympathy for a mom who is harassed while modestly breastfeeding her baby vs. a mom who bares her breast while nursing and refuses to consider the feelings, religious beliefs, etc. of those around her. Most reasonable people couldn't care less if you are breastfeeding, as long as you don't expose your breast to them (or to their DH or teenage sons - which have been used in previous examples).

Some people, for many different reasons, don't want to see someone else's breast in public. I think that's ok. I can respect that. This is why I don't unbutton or pull my shirt down from the top when I nurse my baby in public.

Quote:
But I also think when we get into a "you are with me or against me" paradigm, we're hurting our cause. (bolding & italics, mine) We need room for differences of opinion--an openness to various perspectives with compassionate understanding even when we disagree.
I appreciate this. I've definitely gotten the feeling that others on this board and their "all or nothing" point of view hurts the cause of normalizing breasteeding in general and in public specifically.
post #13 of 51
I get what your saying alllyssa- but i think the position is if we put conditions about how breastfeeding is done in public, then we are never really getting to the point that breastfeeding should be a zero issue. We don't normalize the breast as normal for nursing we continue to hide it, we continue to discourage mothers who feel they might not be discreet enough and therefore give up on breastfeeding all together, not worth the hassel or the babe just won't eat under a blanket.
It's like the "don't ask don't tell" law- it just doesn't work. by and large most women I know do not get naked or mostly naked to breastfeed, but the perception by many in public is that we do or we might so we have to hide the act and that is offensive. It's a cultural shift and change we are looking for that won't come by saying it has to be "respectful" because that can be to many things to to many people.
So though I'm not going to nurse with my shirt off- I'm also not going to tell you how or if your nursing is "right" or "wrong".
post #14 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by alllyssa View Post
I just don't get this way of thinking. Do you (general) REALLY think that any way a mother chooses to breastfeed her baby is OK in public? What if she completely unbuttons her shirt? What if she took her shirt off completely? Is any way really OK with you (general)?
Yes I really think any way a baby breastfeeds is OK. See, I am 100% supportive of breastfeeding period. I do not feel the need to take other peoples' hang ups into consideration before I feed my child. I am against anyone wanting to limit or control how a woman feeds her child.

Should women take into considerations others' religion when they get dressed to go out in public? Which religions guidelines should women follow? Where does it end?
post #15 of 51
I wanted to add that any woman can draw a line for herself and how she is comfortable (or not) breasfeeding in public. The problem comes when people try to push their preference onto all breastfeeding mothers. That is wrong for a number of reasons.

What I seriously don't get is why people who are offended by seeing some of a woman's breast while she feeds her child from said breast can't just look away. I see all kinds of things I would rather not see in public and I have always been able to look away.
post #16 of 51
Taking your whole top off seems extreme, sure. But you know what? In my first baby's first 3-4 weeks, I HAD to take my whole top off every time. We were struggling with latch issues, and to get him latched on right I needed *nothing* in the way. That's the way it was. In those weeks, the only places I ever went were home, the midwives office, and the lactation clinics - that's it. I was fortunate enough to have my mother staying with me for part of the time and my DH home from work for 6 weeks. Fabulously lucky. Without that, I would have HAD to go to the grocery store, drug store, etc, on occasion, with a baby who needed (yes, needed) to nurse extremely frequently and for long periods. I don't know what I would have done - I would not have been at all happy to take off my shirt in public....I guess I would have used a grocery store bathroom - totally yucky, I think we can all agree. But that's what I would have done...wouldn't it be so much better if we lived in a culture/society where I did not feel so uncomfortable doing what I had to do to feed my baby that I would have resorted to feeding him in a grocery store bathroom?
post #17 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by LavenderMae View Post

Should women take into considerations others' religion when they get dressed to go out in public? Which religions guidelines should women follow? Where does it end?
:

I don't understand how Bfing moms are expected to "respect" others by being "discreet" or "modest" because OTHERS think that's the way it should be. Couldn't we flip that and say others should "respect" BFing moms who can't be "discreet" or who feel it is wrong because of the message it sends?

I think respect is about following the golden rule. And as far as *I'm* concerned the way *I* want to be treated is to be allowed to make choices that are best for ME and MY baby. For us that means not covering up because
1. I can't see what I'm doing well enough and it makes BFing difficult and stressful and
2. I want my DD to grow up believing that BFing is dirty.

I don't go around telling BFing moms who do cover that they need to "respect" me by doing things my way and uncovering so my daughter can grow up seeing BF as a regular and wonderful thing. I "respect" them by letting THEM decide what's best for them and their family.

I also think respect has to be earned and what we're really talking about here is not "respect" but politeness/niceness which is about making other people comfortable. I'm sorry...I'm all for politeness *until* it infringes upon my and my family's comfort. Then our needs take priority. Maybe some people think that makes me a jerk but that's the way it is.

I could say more on the issue of respect (especially concerning religion) but I'm not sure if it would violate the UA. I will say that I tend to agree with Richard Dawkins on the matter of respect regarding religion.
post #18 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by alllyssa View Post
I just don't get this way of thinking. Do you (general) REALLY think that any way a mother chooses to breastfeed her baby is OK in public? What if she completely unbuttons her shirt? What if she took her shirt off completely? Is any way really OK with you (general)?
*snipped and bolding mine*

Yes, I do and yes, it sure is. All of it. Why? Because that's what breasts are FOR.
Sure, they're a sign of femininity and can be pretty to look at.. BUT.. first and foremost, they are on my body to nurse a child. That is why they are on my 11 yr old daughter's body. And I want my 15 yr old son to KNOW that is why they are on a woman's body.. I want him to be a supportive husband if his wife chooses to nurse their child(ren).

Society's oversexualization of the breast is a huge part of WHY more women don't nurse. They feel confined at home because society deems their breasts as sexual objects and can't freakin' accept them for what they're biologically designed to do. Doctors aren't knowledgeable enough about our breasts, because.. well, who cares! Formula is just as wonderful. The boobies are for the men (and some women)!

I wish so much that more women could see past this. If we can't support one another in regards to our breasts' biological function, I honestly feel that we're not going to get anywhere. Why are so many women defining how much breast is OK for another woman to show when she is using that breast to nurse her child as it's biologically designed? I will never in a million years understand that..

I nursed my children all of 6 weeks. That was it. I have no agenda for myself in this.. I haven't been harrassed. *I* don't have to worry about being humiliated. But, if things don't change, my daughter sure might. I do NOT want that to happen to her. And dam*it I want her to have to best possible chance at a successful nursing relationship, unlike I did. As long as society and other women are telling her that she can only nurse outside the home if she is "discreet", I have a feeling that she won't be having a very good chance.
post #19 of 51
That is a great post. ITA, especially as a big breasted woman (36J) who can only be so "discreet". Honestly, all my discretion is aimed at making sure no one sees my postpartum tummy that I'm uncomfortable with! I'd rather flash some boob than my fat and stretch marks.
That is a well written and informative post-thanks!
post #20 of 51
Quote:
Originally Posted by alllyssa View Post
I just don't get this way of thinking. Do you (general) REALLY think that any way a mother chooses to breastfeed her baby is OK in public? What if she completely unbuttons her shirt? What if she took her shirt off completely? Is any way really OK with you (general)?

It is perfectly logical to me to be able to draw a line in what I think is acceptable in pubic and in whom I will support. I have more sympathy for a mom who is harassed while modestly breastfeeding her baby vs. a mom who bares her breast while nursing and refuses to consider the feelings, religious beliefs, etc. of those around her. Most reasonable people couldn't care less if you are breastfeeding, as long as you don't expose your breast to them (or to their DH or teenage sons - which have been used in previous examples).

Some people, for many different reasons, don't want to see someone else's breast in public. I think that's ok. I can respect that. This is why I don't unbutton or pull my shirt down from the top when I nurse my baby in public.



I appreciate this. I've definitely gotten the feeling that others on this board and their "all or nothing" point of view hurts the cause of normalizing breasteeding in general and in public specifically.
I just don't get this way of thinking. Do you (general) REALLY think that any way a mother chooses to bottlefeed her baby is OK in public? What if she completely exposes her hand? What if she took her glove off completely? Is any way really OK with you (general)?

It is perfectly logical to me to be able to draw a line in what I think is acceptable in pubic and in whom I will support. I have more sympathy for a mom who is harassed while modestly bottlefeeding her baby vs. a mom who bares her hand while formula feeding and refuses to consider the feelings, religious beliefs, etc. of those around her. Most reasonable people couldn't care less if you are bottlefeeding, as long as you don't expose your hand to them (or to their DH or teenage sons - which have been used in previous examples).

Some people, for many different reasons, don't want to see someone else's hand in public. I think that's ok. I can respect that. This is why I don't remove my glove completely when I bottlefeed my baby in public.
__________

The only reason you have a problem is because you have sexualized female breasts. Are you consistent? Do you lobby for legislation to cover mens' breasts? Or is it just the women who have to cover up?

I'm sure someone, somewhere, has tried the kinky position of "no-hands sex" but last time I checked, every single person uses their hands for sexual activity. Alone or with others. So I think if women have to cover their breasts while nursing, then women have to cover their hands while bottlefeeding. And men need to cover up, period!
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