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Originally Posted by justJen
 (My friend Jess posted this discussion of "discretion" on our local parenting group and I found it intriguing and thought-provoking. She's given me permission to share it here. Jen)
Problem is, we're shooting ourselves in the foot. By using the big D, or dancing around it in any way by trying to prove how *modest* we are, by talking about how the baby covers up the breasts, reassuring them that nothing really shows and that they've probably seen a million cases of NIP and never noticed it...we're allowing them to define modesty and discretion. We're playing their game and agreeing with them that breasts should not be seen. We're selling out our fellow breastfeeders - the ones who are unhampered by silly social conditioning and don't feel self-conscious popping a breast over the neck of a tank top, or who just can't hide those 38Gs, or who inadvertently get exposed by a curious 8 month old taking a look around. It's even worse when the pro-NIP side starts to agree with the "just be prepared with a bottle or go to the bathroom!" side by speculating about the motives of the woman in the news story du jour. We weren't there, we aren't her. Assuming that she was trying to stir up a ruckus is blaming the victim. So, I beg of you, can we please drop the discretion language and stand up for our fellow nursing mamas, no matter how they get the milk into their baby's mouths? (I'm not pointing any fingers, just asking if you'll join me in watching what we say.) When we use it, we allow the anti-NIP people to put us on the defensive and define the terms of the debate. Our bottom line should be this: babies have a right to food and comfort when and where they need it. How much of the breast is bared in the process should matter to no one but its owner. So let's stop talking about how discreet we are, ok? |
But I don't get how moms who think it's fine we're being told how to be modest don't understand that as long as someone else is defining modesty, we don't have rights. I'm not sure if that came out how I meant, I'm referring to a conversation with a friend locally, who has a 1 mo and hasn't been harrassed for BFing. I hope she isn't, but even if you are firm on what you want to do, when someone says something critical of you BFing, it is agonizing, IME
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Originally Posted by krystyn33
On the discretion issue, I am in agreement--we cannot define some styles of nursing as acceptable and others not. It is counterproductive to the goal of breastfeeding normalcy to draw this line. No one should be told how to nurse.
But I also think when we get into a "you are with me or against me" paradigm, we're hurting our cause. We need room for differences of opinion--an openness to various perspectives with compassionate understanding even when we disagree. Not easy, but I think the diplomatic tone of the OP here is a good start. |
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Originally Posted by alllyssa
Hi again,
I hope I'm not crossing "the line" again, but I keep getting the feeling like I'm being misunderstood. I'll try this one more time and then I think I'm done. I just don't get this way of thinking. Do you (general) REALLY think that any way a mother chooses to breastfeed her baby is OK in public? What if she completely unbuttons her shirt? What if she took her shirt off completely? Is any way really OK with you (general)? I appreciate this. I've definitely gotten the feeling that others on this board and their "all or nothing" point of view hurts the cause of normalizing breasteeding in general and in public specifically. |
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Originally Posted by PiesandAbrosmama
I get what your saying alllyssa- but i think the position is if we put conditions about how breastfeeding is done in public, then we are never really getting to the point that breastfeeding should be a zero issue. We don't normalize the breast as normal for nursing we continue to hide it, we continue to discourage mothers who feel they might not be discreet enough and therefore give up on breastfeeding all together, not worth the hassel or the babe just won't eat under a blanket.
It's like the "don't ask don't tell" law- it just doesn't work. by and large most women I know do not get naked or mostly naked to breastfeed, but the perception by many in public is that we do or we might so we have to hide the act and that is offensive. It's a cultural shift and change we are looking for that won't come by saying it has to be "respectful" because that can be to many things to to many people. So though I'm not going to nurse with my shirt off- I'm also not going to tell you how or if your nursing is "right" or "wrong". |
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Originally Posted by hollyvangogh
Of course the real irony is that while real, in person, women are told that to be decent and respectful they'd better cover up (no matter what they believe or how difficult covering makes BFing) it seems perfectly acceptable for 2D women on magazine covers to be 90% naked. Actually, even in every day real life it seems more acceptable for women to bare skin for a million reasons (warm weather, looking fashionable, attracting others, etc.) but not BFing. Heaven forbid we bare skin for *that!*
It does not make their reasons valid. That does not make it so that the rest of the world has to cater to their hangups. Someone on MDC once made the point that people do *not* have a right to never be offended but babies and mamas certainly have a right to breastfeed! |
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Originally Posted by hucklebearie
The opposition has well formed ideas and logical (to them) reasons for being against nursing and NIP. Their voice is well represented in society. We owe it to every mom who chooses to give their baby the *best* start in life to support their choice and whatever means it takes to achieve their choice. When their peers and fellow moms (especially moms who bf) pick and choose what method of nursing is acceptable to them, we are fueling the fire of the opposition. There is no benefit to the child to say my way is decent and your way is not.
The more I read and think about this topic the more incensed I get and convinced of the idea that it is not men who undermine a nursing moms rights to bf, but women. I absolutely hold fast to the belief you are for me or against me. I think it is impossible to change the way society feels about or allows BF or NIP if we ourselves have such a huge divide of opinion. If a mom is smart enough to choose to feed her baby in the best way (from the breast) and is comfortable enough to NIP it in spite of the many obvious obstacles, we should be applauding her. Period. Regardless of our own hang ups, a nursing mom needs and deserves our support. If not for her sake than for the sake of her child. |
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Originally Posted by krystyn33
There is a gap between what is essentially true (if you believe there is any essential truth/reality--philosophy minor here...
 ) and what is socially constructed. Yes breasts have an intrinsic purpose that is not sexual. But for ages in mainstream American culture they have been highly sexualized--these perceptions and attitudes are not going to change overnight. While I am not saying we should cater to other people's potential discomfort and put blankets over our heads, I do not think that NIP with a reasonable (i.e. still putting baby's need first) amount of consideration for others should mean extradition from the lactivist club.There's a difference in my personal take on this and my political take. Personally, the notion of a mom NIP greatly exposed on purpose with a *screw you* in your face attitude to anyone who might not like it--ready for a fight--doesn't strike me as productive to making NIP accepted or normalized. (A tiny minority of us I'm sure.) You catch more flies with honey, is my point there. BUT, politically I will support that mom's right to NIP without restrictions because I can't disentangle that from my right to NIP. Discretion is subjective and there are certainly folks who would think I am lacking and should sit facing a wall or use a blanket or a bottle or whatever. Lots of folks would find it disgusting that I was nursing a 2 year old. And discretion is not always under our control either--with squirmy-wormies or large breasts or the early days when latching on is challenging or whatever. We cannot place any formal qualifications or limitations on the right to NIP without shooting ourselves in the foot. When DS was still a baby I had lunch with a fairly conservative friend who was not yet a mom. DS needed to nurse, and although I didn't need to (and would never want an official rule that I had to), I asked her if she would be uncomfortable if I nursed him. She blushed a little bit and said, "No, not at all," even though I could tell it felt a little awkward for her. Frankly, I'm not sure what I would have done if she said yes--maybe moved to a different booth, but I do believe that my consideration of her feelings prompted her acceptance of NIP. Respect given encouraged respect returned in kind. This is my general rule of thumb for relating with others in all aspects of my life. Now, some would think that makes me not a lactivist, but frankly I think she is more likely to be open to NIP herself in the future than she would have if my attitude had been who cares if you feel awkward--this is my right so deal with it. And yes, NIP and the over-sexualization of breasts is an important issue, but I'm not sure it causes the poor BFing success rates as much as lack of paid maternity leave, lack of adequate time/space for pumping in the workplace, poor birth and hospital practices, bad advice from uninformed doctors and other medical professionals, lack of postnatal support and care in general, and so on. There's a lot of work to be done and many ways we can act as lactivists--we don't all need to think alike and have the same methods. |
[QUOTE=PiesandAbrosmama;13280625]
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Originally Posted by hollyvangogh
I don't go around telling BFing moms who do cover that they need to "respect" me by doing things my way and uncovering so my daughter can grow up seeing BF as a regular and wonderful thing. I "respect" them by letting THEM decide what's best for them and their family.
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How much easier would breastfeeding be if we could call a mom who's a friend who's nursed and say, "Can I watch your child latch on? I'm having a hard time." We don't have a breastfeeding culture; we don't have good help from nurses/LCs/drs. I think this would make a difference for some women who didn't know they were having problems nursing or couldn't get good help.
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Originally Posted by the_lissa
It is definitely societal rather than human nature, or it would be the same across every society and it is not.
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Originally Posted by Sagesgirl
None of this changes the fact that their primary purpose--designed as such by God or by millions of years of evolution, take your pick--is to nourish younglings. Frootloop/Dee is right--if a person cannot separate breastfeeding from sex, that's their problem. Not mine.
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