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Reverse racism - Page 6

post #101 of 417
sorry I did the post and run last night. And again I've got to get the littles out the door. I did not mean for my post to derail and shut down the conversation. I do think that this is an important dialog to have, especially at a parenting forum. probably even more important here than most forums because we are helping shape the mind set of the future leaders of our world. I might send a PM to the admins suggesting a re-work of the racism workshop so that dialog can happen.

My frustration in some of the responses here is that the MCF doesn't feel like a safe place for some of the MC families who would probably post more often in this forum if it weren't for these types of arguments. The point of the forum, I thought, was to create a safe place. A place where racism couldn't be dismissed. And I know that no one here intentionally dismissed racism, I know no one on this thread meant to hurt others or make them feel unsafe. But like Missy said, posts like "Well I'm white and I've been the victim of racism" do dismiss and harm the growth process of maybe one day ending racism in this country, in our world. Just like it's not "real" to some and it is to others. I wish that this forum was a place where a sensitivity to the living breathing day in and day out reality was real to all who posted here.
post #102 of 417
It is such a complex issue,

In the example of an American white person in America claiming to be a victim of racism because a black person said something mildly offensive to them, I can totally understand how that is not the same as the racism that many black peopl have had to face their whole lives, and to say that it is is totally insensitive.

However, I don't think it is as simple to say that white people can never experience racism though. I don't know if that's what people are saying here, but it's coming across that way.

There are minority ethnic groups in where I come from who have to face discrimination every day. Their skin is white, but they are the minority.

I live in Ireland, and one example is the Irish travelling community. They are the minority, they are instantly recognisable as different, from the way they speak and how they dress. They are a legal ethnic minority and they face contant discrimination. That is racism.

I lived in England as a child and as a result I have an English accent. There are alot of Irish people who hate English people. My family moved to a part of Ireland where the people have a particularly strong dislike of English people. (To the point where two English people were murdered this week and police frantically search for a bomb on it's way to London)
It is considered racism here, when the topic is dealt with and cases have been brought to court it has been called racism.
I have had to deal with alot more discrimination than my husband, who is of Asian origin. When it happens to him it is racism, but not when it happens to me?
It could get even more complicated when you consider that it is a reaction to racism, since the hatred of English people only came about as a result of what the English did to the Irish. (Although thats nothig to do with me, I'm not even English, people just think I am)

And also, I believe that if my dh were to say something offensive about black people, he would be racist, despite not being part of the race in power.
post #103 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Susuwatari View Post
However, I don't think it is as simple to say that white people can never experience racism though. I don't know if that's what people are saying here, but it's coming across that way.

There are minority ethnic groups in where I come from who have to face discrimination every day. Their skin is white, but they are the minority.

I live in Ireland, and one example is the Irish travelling community. They are the minority, they are instantly recognisable as different, from the way they speak and how they dress. They are a legal ethnic minority and they face contant discrimination. That is racism.
No, it's not racism. It is discrimination, bigotry and prejudice, but it is not racism.


Saying white people cannot be the victim of racism, is not being simple, it's being aware of the complex way our world works.
post #104 of 417
Why is it not racism? They are legally defined as a seperate race, they hold no power in society and they are routinely discriminated against? What else does the situation require to be described as racism?
I thought the definition of racism meant the group being discriminated against had to hold no power in the society?

And btw, I'm only new, and I had no intention of getting into such a heavy discussion stright away after joining this place! I was quite pleased to see there was a multicultural families section seeing as there has never been anything like this on any other forum I've been on and I don't know anyone else with biracial children in real life.
post #105 of 417
By "Irish travelling people" do you mean what Americans would call Roma or Gypsies?
post #106 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Susuwatari View Post
Why is it not racism? They are legally defined as a seperate race, they hold no power in society and they are routinely discriminated against? What else does the situation require to be described as racism?
I thought the definition of racism meant the group being discriminated against had to hold no power in the society?

And btw, I'm only new, and I had no intention of getting into such a heavy discussion stright away after joining this place! I was quite pleased to see there was a multicultural families section seeing as there has never been anything like this on any other forum I've been on and I don't know anyone else with biracial children in real life.
The complex of race within the United States can be totally different than in another country. How minorities are and have been treated by whites in the United states CAN be just the same as the Irish have been treated by the English in Ireland. They may hold a position of power NOW but how was it before then? How were the Irish treated by the English? From what I learned it was pretty bad for the Irish and they went through a lot so my thought is that they are Reacting to the racism that they were plagued with while the english were in power. I am guessing that they are taking back what was rightfully theirs . Maybe they feel they are a seperate race, I don't see what is wrong with that.

I think the problem with colonizing countries and then having those countries take back over is that when and how long does it take for those countries to be racist against the people who colonized them? Its a very fine line and I haven't been in that situation but I would think that they are reacting to racism even though they may be in power now.

I think it is good to have these heavy discussions because then we can build a bridge and connect with each other and teach each other things we may not have dealt with ya know?
post #107 of 417
But I'm pretty sure she isn't talking about how the Irish have been treated in Ireland, she is talking about how the Roma have been treated in Ireland. "Travelling people" can be another term for Roma (because Gypsy is considered offensive).
post #108 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by lolar2 View Post
But I'm pretty sure she isn't talking about how the Irish have been treated in Ireland, she is talking about how the Roma have been treated in Ireland. "Travelling people" can be another term for Roma (because Gypsy is considered offensive).
Wow if that is the case then I think there is a lot of learning to be done in Ireland, being legally defined as a separate race? That's really disturbing.
post #109 of 417
I am no expert in other countries. I just saw her mention the Irish and the english so I thought she was talking about how the english are treated in Ireland, guess I shouldn't assume. Well you guys can just ignore my comment because I guess it was off. I would really like to learn more about that though
post #110 of 417
Add me to the list of those who are confused. A short google search tells me that the Irish Travelers are not legally defined as an ethnic group and that because of this they cannot be protected under ethnic discrimination laws. I found this info on a few sites supporting those who are trying to change Irish laws so that they can be defined as an ethnic group.

Regardless of the confusion about certain people in Ireland being legally defined as a separate race or not, I do think it is important for any here who would like to learn more about Racism in the US to read the thread Missy linked. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=racism
post #111 of 417
Futurmama8, I was talking about both kind of, they're two completely different situations. I didn't bring up how the Irish have been treated by the English because there was a comment made earlier about how someone always drags up the Irish so I didn't feel like it was ok to mention it. But yes the the way the Irish were treated by the English was racist. The things that happened to my dad in England in the 70's was awful, advertisments for jobs and accomodation would say 'no irish need apply' he was physically attacked and even arrested once just for being Irish near an army base.
Not to mention the 800 years of oppression, where Irish people weren't allowed to own land or houses, weren't allowed basic human rights, were considered an inferior race, were sold as slaves, allowed to starve and die in the famine despite there being plenty of food in the country.
This is why people are nasty to me sometimes when they hear my English accent, but I am not English.
It makes me sad that some people wouldn't consider what happened to the Irish as racism just because Irish people are white.

Irish travellers are a completely different situation. I used this as an example of racism within Ireland, against travellers. They are recognised as an ethnic minorty and they fought for this. So it was seen as a positive thing when this was granted.
Here is a link if you want to read more http://struggle.ws/rbr/travrbr2.html
post #112 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
Add me to the list of those who are confused. A short google search tells me that the Irish Travelers are not legally defined as an ethnic group and that because of this they cannot be protected under ethnic discrimination laws. I found this info on a few sites supporting those who are trying to change Irish laws so that they can be defined as an ethnic group.

Regardless of the confusion about certain people in Ireland being legally defined as a separate race or not, I do think it is important for any here who would like to learn more about Racism in the US to read the thread Missy linked. http://www.mothering.com/discussions...ghlight=racism
Actually yes you are right, I was thinking of England where I grew up, where they are definied as an ethnic group. Sorry for any confusion.
post #113 of 417
Artgoddess I read that thread a little while ago because I was stalking Missy's threads It made me It was beautiful I wish the world was as open as she is.

Do you think we can post in the questions and suggestions board to see if we can maybe change the racism forum as you mentioned earlier? It would be great to learn about racism in other countries including this one.
post #114 of 417
I can't open the link? Do I need to have a certain number of posts to see it?
post #115 of 417
I have opened this thread repeatedly over the last several hours, and then promptly closed it back up because I'm having a hard to expressing myself.

First of all, I can only speak about racism in the US because that's what I know. I stated at least once that my comments are about the US.

That said, if the Irish are considered white and are discriminated against by other whites, it's not racism. It can't be. It can be prejudice, it can be discrimination, but it's not racism because they are the same race as those doing the discriminating. The prejudice is not due to race, but to ethnicity.

Additionally, something has been bothering me for hours and I've been struggling with how to word it.

Repeatedly in discussions about race and racism, there have been people who join in and ask questions, like they're really curious and interested in learning, and others patiently (at least initially) attempt to answer them. People invest their time and their energy, they share their experiences, they expose emotions, revisit pain, hoping that the interest shown will lead to something, that somewhere something will click...

And then the person comes back and announces that everyone is wrong, that this is what she believed before the discussion and it's what she believes now, and suddenly everyone who was so invested in the discussion realizes that her mind had been made up long ago, and she didn't really give a crap about the answers after all.

I saw at least the shell of that happening in this discussion, and it was really hard to watch it unfolding and attempt to step back and disconnect.

Susuwatari, you asked:
Quote:
But I'm just wondering, if a black person cannot be racist against a white person because white people make up the majority, can they be racist against an asian person?
Can an asian person be racist against white people? Can white people be racist against asian people? What about other minorities? Mexican people, Italian people, Irish, Polish?
LoMaH gave you a thoughtful response. I'm sure that others, like me, were still forming a response. But then, after asking what really seemed to be genuine questions, you came back with:
Quote:
It is such a complex issue,

In the example of an American white person in America claiming to be a victim of racism because a black person said something mildly offensive to them, I can totally understand how that is not the same as the racism that many black peopl have had to face their whole lives, and to say that it is is totally insensitive.

However, I don't think it is as simple to say that white people can never experience racism though. I don't know if that's what people are saying here, but it's coming across that way.

There are minority ethnic groups in where I come from who have to face discrimination every day. Their skin is white, but they are the minority.

I live in Ireland, and one example is the Irish travelling community. They are the minority, they are instantly recognisable as different, from the way they speak and how they dress. They are a legal ethnic minority and they face contant discrimination. That is racism.

I lived in England as a child and as a result I have an English accent. There are alot of Irish people who hate English people. My family moved to a part of Ireland where the people have a particularly strong dislike of English people. (To the point where two English people were murdered this week and police frantically search for a bomb on it's way to London)
It is considered racism here, when the topic is dealt with and cases have been brought to court it has been called racism.
I have had to deal with alot more discrimination than my husband, who is of Asian origin. When it happens to him it is racism, but not when it happens to me?
It could get even more complicated when you consider that it is a reaction to racism, since the hatred of English people only came about as a result of what the English did to the Irish. (Although thats nothig to do with me, I'm not even English, people just think I am)

And also, I believe that if my dh were to say something offensive about black people, he would be racist, despite not being part of the race in power.
It seems like your mind was made up. You knew the answers you wanted to those questions. It wouldn't have mattered how much time any of us spent responding to your other post. And that was frustrating. It felt like almost every other discussion about racism. It felt like you were asking questions without any desire to actually consider the answers. So, if you already know how you want the questions answered, I don't understand the point of asking.

If the point is to illustrate the difference between racism in America vs. discrimination in Ireland, identify the shift. But, since you very clearly knew we were discussing racism in the US, it felt like a lot of pot-stirring and not a genuine interest in discussion.
post #116 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by futurmama8 View Post
Artgoddess I read that thread a little while ago because I was stalking Missy's threads It made me It was beautiful I wish the world was as open as she is.

Do you think we can post in the questions and suggestions board to see if we can maybe change the racism forum as you mentioned earlier? It would be great to learn about racism in other countries including this one.
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...018&highlight=
post #117 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missy View Post
I have opened this thread repeatedly over the last several hours, and then promptly closed it back up because I'm having a hard to expressing myself.

First of all, I can only speak about racism in the US because that's what I know. I stated at least once that my comments are about the US.

That said, if the Irish are considered white and are discriminated against by other whites, it's not racism. It can't be. It can be prejudice, it can be discrimination, but it's not racism because they are the same race as those doing the discriminating. The prejudice is not due to race, but to ethnicity.

Additionally, something has been bothering me for hours and I've been struggling with how to word it.

Repeatedly in discussions about race and racism, there have been people who join in and ask questions, like they're really curious and interested in learning, and others patiently (at least initially) attempt to answer them. People invest their time and their energy, they share their experiences, they expose emotions, revisit pain, hoping that the interest shown will lead to something, that somewhere something will click...

And then the person comes back and announces that everyone is wrong, that this is what she believed before the discussion and it's what she believes now, and suddenly everyone who was so invested in the discussion realizes that her mind had been made up long ago, and she didn't really give a crap about the answers after all.

I saw at least the shell of that happening in this discussion, and it was really hard to watch it unfolding and attempt to step back and disconnect.

Susuwatari, you asked:

LoMaH gave you a thoughtful response. I'm sure that others, like me, were still forming a response. But then, after asking what really seemed to be genuine questions, you came back with:


It seems like your mind was made up. You knew the answers you wanted to those questions. It wouldn't have mattered how much time any of us spent responding to your other post. And that was frustrating. It felt like almost every other discussion about racism. It felt like you were asking questions without any desire to actually consider the answers. So, if you already know how you want the questions answered, I don't understand the point of asking.

If the point is to illustrate the difference between racism in America vs. discrimination in Ireland, identify the shift. But, since you very clearly knew we were discussing racism in the US, it felt like a lot of pot-stirring and not a genuine interest in discussion.
I'm really sorry if I have upset you, and I haven't already made my mind up. There are issues here that I have never even considered before. Not because I am ignorant but because I live in a part of the world where the issue doesn't come up.

I had never heard of the racism equals power plus prejudice equation before, and again, that is not due to ignorence, it is due to living in a different part of the world. But I don't disagree with it, I have been reading on it now and it does make sense. I have learned. I agree that a black american person cannot be racist. I also agree that a white American person cannot be a victim of racism, as they are always in a position of power.

I was not aware that this was a discussion of racism in America only, and I was just trying to illustrate a situation where a non American white person can be a victim of racism

Why would I think this was just about America when there are statements like this? If it is the way the world works?

Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
Saying white people cannot be the victim of racism, is not being simple, it's being aware of the complex way our world works.

I'm really upset that there are people who are angry with me, I did not intend to make anyone angry. I'm also hurt that you refuse to recognise the oppression of the Irish people as racism. It has been widely recognised as racism and I didn't know that anyone even doubted that.

Things are obviously completely different here than in the US, and I don't think anyone here is going to undersand my perspective if they're only willing to take an American view and apply it to the rest of the world. In America you have white people and everyone else, but it's not like that in the rest of the world. The power isn't held by one big group of white people who consider themselves the same race and equal to each other. That is all I was trying to say.
post #118 of 417
It doesn't have to be a discussion just about racism in the US; however, since most of us live in the US, that's our lens and most of the discussion has been just that. I do think it is important for us, here, to see how race and racism impacts other parts of the world. It was just that, after seeing you ask questions, it was disconcerting to turn around and read: And also, I believe that if my dh were to say something offensive about black people, he would be racist, despite not being part of the race in power. because that seemed to imply that you had already made up your mind regardless. It's a pretty definitive statement.

OTOH, I'm glad to know that you've read further into it, because that shows the discussion isn't static.

Do you all have government forms, medical forms, etc...that ask for race? Is Irish identified on those forms as a different race? I'm having a very difficult time wrapping my head around the idea that the Irish and the Polish could be considered a different race than the English. The Irish are white. How is it racism when someone else who is white discriminates against them?
post #119 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly1101 View Post
Heh, thanks... I'm trying not to, because I think THAT is the real thing that kills the conversation...getting too frustrated about different opinions and either letting things disintegrate, or giving up. But I think that these conversations DO need to happen more often, and as long as they aren't motivated by hate or from a stubborn position of prejudice, they end up being at least thought-provoking.

And argh I want to respond to all the other posts, but no time tonight, will definitely be back tomorrow, I'm not ignoring anyone
I really appreciate, too. These discussions are so important. I know you mentioned the media, tv, etc. a few posts back. If you haven't seen the movie Crash, you might want to watch, or go back and view it with things discussed here in mind.

I think it is difficult for most people to grasp how ingrained and institutionalized racism is in this country. As a white person, I've been taught to be color-blind. But, yeah, I have that privilege to be color-blind. I don't think about my skin color every time I walk into a store, go for a loan at a bank, walk down the street, etc. Honestly, the only time I think about it is when I'm putting on sunblock to go to the beach.

And just to discuss the institutional aspect a little more. A POC cop can actively participate in the racist practices of his police force through profiling. Cops can say they don't profile all day long, but we can see the effect of it in the news every week. That's how ingrained this crap is. It's sad that a POC can participate and perpetuate that nasty cycle, but when it's your job - and a practice of your profession nationwide - how do you buck that horse?
post #120 of 417
artgoddess
Oh, I see what you meant. I thought I wrote something offensive.
I'm totally open to have someone challenge whatever I write. My belief is that as long as the discussion can be kept civil, some of this is harder to speak about in person than it is on an anonymous board in cyberspace.
Quote:
Originally Posted by futurmama8 View Post
I took artgoddess' post as saying its good we have these conversations but why do we keep having to have them. So would you like for us to stop talking about it because I would not like to make people feel I am invading their space

Is their a place on this board where we can talk about race without having to be so structured and just tell our experiences with it?

I really don't want to leave BUT I see that LoMah did and I don't know why, I feel like I should too now so let me know if I should just BACK OUT. I love having these discussions but its not worth people getting offended
futurmama
I'm back, just didn't have a chance to get online.
But.... I've been thinking about this thread a lot.

I won't leave if you won't. (or unless they ask us to stop.)
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