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post #121 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missy View Post
I think it's wonderful that you've only had a few negative encounters related to race and culture, but, for a lot of us, that is so far from our experience.
Missy,
Don't get me wrong, I've had my fill. Relatively speaking, I haven't. I mean in the grand scheme of things, I've never been beaten, imprisoned, or denied access to anything. Yeah, I've certainly gotten attitudes, "that" look, or some ignorant comment. Yet, I don't encounter those on a daily basis. So, yeah, I'm fortunate.
(just to reiterate, in case you don't know, I'm a 1st-gen Hispanic-American of mixed racial/ethnic ancestry and physically, it shows.)
I'm comparing my experiences to that of the images during the Civil Rights movement or other incidents of that magnitude. My experiences don't even come close to those.
Quote:
In the 25 years since my husband and I started dating, racism has been a constant. It just is. And I accept that knowing that I can walk away from it. My husband can't. My kids can't. They can't step out of their skin. What I experience is a fraction of my husband's experience, and it is still very often overwhelming.
I'm so sorry that your family has had such a difficult time. IME, it's especially harder for men, since women are seen as less threatening.
post #122 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Susuwatari View Post
I didn't bring up how the Irish have been treated by the English because there was a comment made earlier about how someone always drags up the Irish so I didn't feel like it was ok to mention it.
Susuwatari
There are differences in perspectives because we're on different sides of the pond.
I believe that someone else mentioned the Irish, but I think they meant the Irish experience in America, not their ongoing problems in Ireland.
The Irish were treated terribly in America too. Signs were posted in establishments that read "no dogs, no Irish."
So, there can't be any downplaying of how horrible that must've been for them.
I think the difference is that because there continued to be influxes of other large groups of people immigrating into the U.S., the discrimination against the older immigrants was lessened as they assimilated/acculturated and as the newer immigrants on the block received the bulk of the discrimination.
Quote:
But yes the the way the Irish were treated by the English was racist. The things that happened to my dad in England in the 70's was awful, advertisments for jobs and accomodation would say 'no irish need apply' he was physically attacked and even arrested once just for being Irish near an army base.
Ugh. That's just so terrible!
post #123 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoMaH View Post
Missy,
Don't get me wrong, I've had my fill. Relatively speaking, I haven't. I mean in the grand scheme of things, I've never been beaten, imprisoned, or denied access to anything. Yeah, I've certainly gotten attitudes, "that" look, or some ignorant comment. Yet, I don't encounter those on a daily basis. So, yeah, I'm fortunate.
(just to reiterate, in case you don't know, I'm a 1st-gen Hispanic-American of mixed racial/ethnic ancestry and physically, it shows.)
I'm comparing my experiences to that of the images during the Civil Rights movement or other incidents of that magnitude. My experiences don't even come close to those.
I'm so sorry that your family has had such a difficult time. IME, it's especially harder for men, since women are seen as less threatening.
LoMaH--I agree with so much of what you've said in this thread, but comparing any current day experiences to those images from the Civil Rights movement and saying, hey, we're lucky, is...gosh, I'm not even sure of the right word. In a way, it kind of excuses racism that doesn't present itself in a white hood. It kind of excuses the personnel director who sent my husband on ten interviews with no intention of offering him a job. Because I wouldn't say that experience matched with the images from the Civil Rights movement. It excuses, in a way, my daughter's 2nd grade teacher who constantly and in every situation seated the two little black girls in the class with the little black boys because she thought, since they were black, they'd be a good influence on the boys, whom she openly couldn't stand. The same teacher about whom a white student--a 2nd grader, remember--loudly observed, "Mrs. F doesn't like black kids." And Mrs. F, standing right next to her, never responded.

My family's experiences aren't unusually difficult. The racism we encounter isn't unusual. Almost every black family I know deals with similar circumstances constantly. It just is what it is. Yes, we can eat at the lunch counter, but we've also experienced sitting in a restaurant, ignored while white families get served. Or standing, waiting to be seated, only to be ignored by the hostess.

My husband's grandmother fought for integration in her school district, and her younger children went to integrated schools. We went to integrated schools, but nearly every black student in our high school was advised by the counselor that they wouldn't make it on an academic track, that they would be more successful with a vocational courseload. My husband was told there was no way he would ever succeed in college. There was no national guard present, no taunting students, no police officers blocking the school doors--but there was still a fight within that school.

Do you see what I'm saying? Some people have a very difficult time seeing racism unless it's wrapped in a sheet or carrying a fire hose. Yet, it's there and it's just as destructive. It doesn't have to equal the images from the Civil Rights movement to be as toxic.
post #124 of 417
I;ve been following this discussion for days because I find it so compelling, and I want to thank all of you for trying so hard to hash it all out with one another. I love MDC!

Please forgive me for trying to add a clarifying point.

Race in the UK/Ireland is seen very differently than in the US. It is rather dated to refer to the Irish as a separate "race" but was official policy as late as (I think) the 1960's...and is still mostly accepted today. The English colonized Ireland in the same devastating way that they did countries like India, and treated the native Irish with the same disdain that they did Indians. The English did not see the Irish as "white" in the way Americans do today. Some British folks still do not. It is a very painful history that still has major repercussions today.

In the UK anti-Irish sentiment is legally considered racism even though their skin color is white, in the same way that anti-Jewish sentiment is considered racism in Nazi Germany even though their skin was white. In America we tend to use the word "anti-Semitic" to clarify, but this is not the case in Europe as far as I know. Its just racism.

I (your basic white American) lived in England for awhile and was shocked at the evil treatment I often received from complete strangers (especially in London) because people looked at me and assumed that I was Irish. I guess I look Irish; I had never really thought about it before that. It was quite the eye-opener.

I find this discussion so compelling because I have taken years (and many sociology/history classes) to work out my feelings about race. I grew up in the Detroit area...and my family there is not brave enough to confront or question their prejudices. Which is very sad.
post #125 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Susuwatari View Post
It is such a complex issue,
In the example of an American white person in America claiming to be a victim of racism because a black person said something mildly offensive to them, I can totally understand how that is not the same as the racism that many black peopl have had to face their whole lives, and to say that it is is totally insensitive.
Oh, there definitely can be times where it's more than just a mild offensive comment. But, it's still not the same, although the basis may be because of race. Mind you, saying that "it's not the same"... doesn't at all mean "it's nothing, not bad." It's just not like the examples you gave about your father's experience, which is on a different level, kwim?
Quote:
However, I don't think it is as simple to say that white people can never experience racism though. I don't know if that's what people are saying here, but it's coming across that way.
I dunno, Susu. White people here can be discriminated against by other white people. Take into consideration though, that our population in the U.S. is much larger, with greater diversity than in Ireland.. and it's easier to target those in the bunch who stand out the MOST.
Quote:
I live in Ireland, and one example is the Irish travelling community. They are the minority, they are instantly recognisable as different, from the way they speak and how they dress. They are a legal ethnic minority and they face contant discrimination. That is racism.
I'm not undermining the discrimination they experience, please don't take my response to mean that.

I think it's hard for us on this side to understand why your example would be categorized as racism because...
Here you're saying that they stand out because of their accents and the way they dress.
You also mentioned that you're also recognized by your English accent.
What would happen if you worked on losing your accent with a speech coach (as actors often do)- and so did the members of the traveling community and they dressed as the majority of the culture?
Is it at all possible for them/you to become indistinguishable from the majority? Is it possible for your children to become indistinguishable?

Can you see how that would be quite a feat for someone whose skin color, physical features, hair texture- "gave them away"?
Quote:
It is considered racism here, when the topic is dealt with and cases have been brought to court it has been called racism.
Someone else already asked you if there were forms that categorized the traveling Irish as belonging to a different race and whether these forms were common when applying to different institutions.

This might help us better understand if race could used against them even after they became indistinguishable from the rest of the population (if the latter's possible).
post #126 of 417
Stacy,

Thanks for adding your clarifying point.

I've read about how the English have viewed and treated the Irish (and even more over the last couple days) and I very much agree that it's horrific. Living here, it's hard to imagine. Even harder is trying to understand how anyone could have defined the English and the Irish as two different races. I'm not arguing, now, that it happened. I just don't understand it.
post #127 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missy View Post
LoMaH--I agree with so much of what you've said in this thread, but comparing any current day experiences to those images from the Civil Rights movement and saying, hey, we're lucky, is...gosh, I'm not even sure of the right word. In a way, it kind of excuses racism that doesn't present itself in a white hood. It kind of excuses the personnel director who sent my husband on ten interviews with no intention of offering him a job. Because I wouldn't say that experience matched with the images from the Civil Rights movement. It excuses, in a way, my daughter's 2nd grade teacher who constantly and in every situation seated the two little black girls in the class with the little black boys because she thought, since they were black, they'd be a good influence on the boys, whom she openly couldn't stand. The same teacher about whom a white student--a 2nd grader, remember--loudly observed, "Mrs. F doesn't like black kids." And Mrs. F, standing right next to her, never responded.
Oh, gosh no. I'm not saying that those extremes are the only ways to experience racism.
Your dh's experience IS racism and one form that I haven't personally experienced to THAT extent. If I claimed that what I've experienced is comparable to what your dh has, then I feel like I'd be undermining racism, you know?
And those poor kids! That speaks personally to me as a former teacher in a predominantly minority inner city school. That's terrible.

Remember how Kelly wrote about how black people being angry at white people was not moral (paraphrasing)? Well, because different people experience different degrees of racism, some of us will be angrier than others. It has nothing to do with morals. Of course, I can still be objective about the topic and not bite someone's head off because I don't encounter those incidents as much as someone else does. It certainly doesn't make me a better person. I just haven't been torn down to that degree. That's what I wanted to convey.

Quote:
My family's experiences aren't unusually difficult. The racism we encounter isn't unusual. Almost every black family I know deals with similar circumstances constantly. It just is what it is. Yes, we can eat at the lunch counter, but we've also experienced sitting in a restaurant, ignored while white families get served. Or standing, waiting to be seated, only to be ignored by the hostess.

My husband's grandmother fought for integration in her school district, and her younger children went to integrated schools. We went to integrated schools, but nearly every black student in our high school was advised by the counselor that they wouldn't make it on an academic track, that they would be more successful with a vocational courseload. My husband was told there was no way he would ever succeed in college. There was no national guard present, no taunting students, no police officers blocking the school doors--but there was still a fight within that school.

Do you see what I'm saying? Some people have a very difficult time seeing racism unless it's wrapped in a sheet or carrying a fire hose. Yet, it's there and it's just as destructive. It doesn't have to equal the images from the Civil Rights movement to be as toxic.
Please forgive me if that's what it came across like.
What you've written above is something I've witnessed, but not something I've personally experienced except on occasions.
Mind you, I grew up in predominantly Hispanic neighborhoods and I believe it's why I've been insulated from as many of those types of experiences (like on a daily basis).
post #128 of 417
Thank you so much for clarifying!!

It did sound like, since my husband and my kids weren't facing the fire hoses and police dogs, their experiences didn't really count, so I'm really glad you explained further.

What struck me so much about my daughter's experience in that class is that a white child, only 7 or 8 years old, picked up on the teacher's bias. That's how bad it was. My daughter knew enough to come home and talk to us about what was happening. Those little boys? were mostly shamed into believing they were just bad kids. The teacher ended up being fired at the beginning of the final marking period. We now homeschool.
post #129 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danelle78 View Post
I don't think about my skin color every time I walk into a store, go for a loan at a bank, walk down the street, etc. Honestly, the only time I think about it is when I'm putting on sunblock to go to the beach.
Danelle
I suspect that this is true for others also.... but..
I can only speak of MY experience, a lot of times I'm not conscious of my skin color either. I'm just walking around, minding my own business- as everyone else does. When I'm presented with those occasions when my skin color matters (depends on a lot of factors)- I'm reminded of it only when I recognize the "look" in others' faces. Something similar to "ew, you got spinach on your teeth" but with an added dimension that says "I hope that doesn't mean you're going to take my purse or somethin'" look. It's only then that I think about my skin color (tan/brown), otherwise I wouldn't. Not walking around the street on a regular day.
It's something that I think about when the event is preplanned, depending on who'll be present, then I might give it some thought beforehand.

If I smile or speak politely- the "look" softens.
I know MOST times it stems from fear and unfamiliarity. I try to remind myself of that.
post #130 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoMaH View Post
Oh, there definitely can be times where it's more than just a mild offensive comment. But, it's still not the same, although the basis may be because of race. Mind you, saying that "it's not the same"... doesn't at all mean "it's nothing, not bad." It's just not like the examples you gave about your father's experience, which is on a different level, kwim?
I dunno, Susu. White people here can be discriminated against by other white people. Take into consideration though, that our population in the U.S. is much larger, with greater diversity than in Ireland.. and it's easier to target those in the bunch who stand out the MOST.
I'm not undermining the discrimination they experience, please don't take my response to mean that.

I think it's hard for us on this side to understand why your example would be categorized as racism because...
Here you're saying that they stand out because of their accents and the way they dress.
You also mentioned that you're also recognized by your English accent.
What would happen if you worked on losing your accent with a speech coach (as actors often do)- and so did the members of the traveling community and they dressed as the majority of the culture?
Is it at all possible for them/you to become indistinguishable from the majority? Is it possible for your children to become indistinguishable?

Can you see how that would be quite a feat for someone whose skin color, physical features, hair texture- "gave them away"?
Someone else already asked you if there were forms that categorized the traveling Irish as belonging to a different race and whether these forms were common when applying to different institutions.

This might help us better understand if race could used against them even after they became indistinguishable from the rest of the population (if the latter's possible).
I would love to lose my accent, I think it's gradually fading, but still sounds English to Irish people, but not as much to English people. But I don't mind losing my English accent because I am Irish, If I were English then that would be different.
If I were to lose my accent I would there would be nothing about me that would stand out, because I am Irish, I look Irish, I don't have any other English traits.

Although despite having an English accent, people in England know that I'm Irish, they know from my name, from the way I look, from things I say and mannerisms that simply cannot be got rid of. I could never be English in England.

My children is a different issue, my son is part Chinese, I don't know how different he will look as he grows but I hope he never experiences any racism.

I don't know how much you know about the Irish travelling community, but to suggest that they try to dress and speak differently to fit in would be extremely offensive to them. They have their own culture that they prize highly, and rightly so, to suggest that they discard it in order to fit in would be outrageous.

But I can see what you are saying, if they wished to do so it is possible. And therefore they have a choice that is not available to other races. Although I think it would take many generations before people would stop noticing. There are plenty of settled travellers who still experience discrimination.
But having the choice to blend in doesn't mean that they shouldn't be entitled to the definition of ethnic minority that they have in the UK.
I'm not sure exactly what forms exist, as I'e never had to deal with the issue. But any form I've had to fill in where you have to check a box for race the option for Irish traveller is always there.

I think the problem some people have is understanding how white people can consider other white people a different race, seeing as it hasn't happened in America.
I don't know that much about this issue, but the closest example I can think of of Racism of people with the same skin colour is the genocide in Rwanda. Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely the ethnic cleansing of the tutsis by the Hutus was racist surely?
And when the Japanese invaded China, murdering hundreds of thousands of Chinese people whilst proclaiming themselves to be a superior race, was this not racism?
post #131 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missy View Post
Thank you so much for clarifying!!

It did sound like, since my husband and my kids weren't facing the fire hoses and police dogs, their experiences didn't really count, so I'm really glad you explained further.

What struck me so much about my daughter's experience in that class is that a white child, only 7 or 8 years old, picked up on the teacher's bias. That's how bad it was. My daughter knew enough to come home and talk to us about what was happening. Those little boys? were mostly shamed into believing they were just bad kids. The teacher ended up being fired at the beginning of the final marking period. We now homeschool.
I'm glad you pointed out how what I wrote could be misconstrued.

Ugh, Kids aren't fools. I wish one of my colleagues was fired but she retired before that happened. However, I've also witnessed teachers who genuinely loved and cared for their students, especially after years of working with minority students.
We also homeschool.
post #132 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missy View Post
It was just that, after seeing you ask questions, it was disconcerting to turn around and read: And also, I believe that if my dh were to say something offensive about black people, he would be racist, despite not being part of the race in power. because that seemed to imply that you had already made up your mind regardless. It's a pretty definitive statement.
OK, I take that back. That was just my conditioning coming through. I grew up beleiving that the word racism meant discrimination based on race, but now that I understand the power aspect, he would not be racist, he would be prejudiced.


Chamomile Girl - Thankyou for clarifying, I was dreading logging back on and seeing this thread, I thought nobody believed me and I couldn't explain properly. I was really upset about it, I know it's silly though, getting upset about what strangers on the other side of the world think, I must be hormonal or something.
post #133 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Susuwatari View Post
I would love to lose my accent, I think it's gradually fading, but still sounds English to Irish people, but not as much to English people. But I don't mind losing my English accent because I am Irish, If I were English then that would be different.
If I were to lose my accent I would there would be nothing about me that would stand out, because I am Irish, I look Irish, I don't have any other English traits.
Aw, no! Don't lose your accent.
My questions were hypothetical, I was simply asking if it was something you COULD lose if it actually posed a danger to you.

Again, I didn't pose the questions to suggest that people lose their accents nor their culture.
My parents have foreign accents and are proud (so am I) of their culture. Sure, they'd laugh at anyone who said they should get rid of any of it. But in their case, "fitting in" wouldn't change their quality of life, especially at this point in their lives.
Quote:
They have their own culture that they prize highly, and rightly so, to suggest that they discard it in order to fit in would be outrageous.
I agree, that it's outrageous.
Again, what I meant was that it's easier to discard those than it is to discard one's skin color.
Unfortunately in the U.S., outside of certain enclaves/metropolitan areas, people have always been pressured to become "American", so much so, that many groups have voluntarily not passed these on to their children. Things have gotten better with time as multiculturalism becomes more "fashionable." And I use that word because diversity is more acceptable by way of a parade or a special day more than it is on a daily basis.
Quote:
I think the problem some people have is understanding how white people can consider other white people a different race, seeing as it hasn't happened in America.
The discrimination has and does happen. But, since we've always had other very distinct races since colonization, it's less likely to affect those oppressed groups for many generations.
Plus, as I mentioned before, the usual response has been to shed whatever distinguishes the group from the majority until you can no longer recognize any major differences between them.
Quote:
I don't know that much about this issue, but the closest example I can think of of Racism of people with the same skin colour is the genocide in Rwanda. Correct me if I'm wrong, but surely the ethnic cleansing of the tutsis by the Hutus was racist surely?
And when the Japanese invaded China, murdering hundreds of thousands of Chinese people whilst proclaiming themselves to be a superior race, was this not racism?
I dunno.
I honestly have a hard time keeping up with my part of the woods to know if that's called racism.
post #134 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danelle78 View Post
And just to discuss the institutional aspect a little more. A POC cop can actively participate in the racist practices of his police force through profiling. Cops can say they don't profile all day long, but we can see the effect of it in the news every week. That's how ingrained this crap is. It's sad that a POC can participate and perpetuate that nasty cycle, but when it's your job - and a practice of your profession nationwide - how do you buck that horse?
Oh, I missed this part and wanted to briefly address it.

Regarding POC perpetuating racism.
- A POC can have as much of a difficult time as others, sometimes even more, to shed beliefs that they've heard repeatedly throughout their entire lives. Simply being in a position of power isn't going to rid these beliefs.

If in the ex. of a POC cop, it's possible that if he's (I'll use he) working in an area where criminals are predominantly also POC, it might actually serve to strengthen some of those negative beliefs he has well ingrained in his mind.
He might also be tougher on the other POC as a way to punish the person for perpetuating that negative stereotype about POC.
Or he might not relate to other POC because he was able to overcome obstacles that this other POC wasn't able to.
- Another point to consider, is that a POC may experience hostility from his own racial group because he/she has reached a position of power. He can be perceived as traitor. So, that could also add to his hostility towards other POC.

See? There can be many layers to it that on the surface are incomprehensible.
post #135 of 417
Yup yup and yup. It's such a horrid cycle. And these discussions do not need to get lost.
post #136 of 417
I once knew a young man who was an Irish Traveller and he begged me not to tell the other Irish people he had met while visiting this country that he was a Traveller. He was certainly concerned about being found out, but all of his friends never suspected he was any different then they were. No one knew the difference. While they may be different ethnically, they are still white.
Also to clarify, the Roma are a different people from the Travellers, although both groups are nomadic and subjected to lots of discrimination and hatred.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Traveller
post #137 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
Thanks artgoddess your great!!!: I really hope they can do this and all people who participate can have have thoughtful conversations. Man I am so happy, can ya tell
post #138 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamsMama View Post
I once knew a young man who was an Irish Traveller and he begged me not to tell the other Irish people he had met while visiting this country that he was a Traveller. He was certainly concerned about being found out, but all of his friends never suspected he was any different then they were. No one knew the difference. While they may be different ethnically, they are still white.
Also to clarify, the Roma are a different people from the Travellers, although both groups are nomadic and subjected to lots of discrimination and hatred.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Traveller
I think this important to note.

Also being classified or asking to be classified with an ethnic distinction is not equal to being a different race. So I am not seeing racism here. Gross bigotry yes, not racism.
post #139 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by WilliamsMama View Post
I once knew a young man who was an Irish Traveller and he begged me not to tell the other Irish people he had met while visiting this country that he was a Traveller. He was certainly concerned about being found out, but all of his friends never suspected he was any different then they were. No one knew the difference. While they may be different ethnically, they are still white.
Also to clarify, the Roma are a different people from the Travellers, although both groups are nomadic and subjected to lots of discrimination and hatred.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Traveller
They are certainly white, that is my point, that white people can be the victim of racism.
A traveller could disguise themselves if they tried hard enough, that is entirely possible, as I said earlier. It's very sad that he felt he had to do this.

But discrimination against travellers is considered racism here.

Quote:
In Commission for Racial Equality v Dutton the Court of Appeal held that Romany Gypsies were an ethnic group within the meaning of the Race Relations Act 1976 (RRA) having regard to the evidence of their shared history, geographical origin, distinct customs and language.

More recently in O’Leary v Allied Domecq, a case brought on behalf of Irish Travellers, the County Court accepted that Irish Travellers are also a distinct ethnic group for the purposes of the RRA. There are currently no reported cases relating to Gypsies or Travellers of other ethnic origins but there seems to be no reason why Scottish or Welsh Travellers could not argue that they are members of separate ethnic groups. Whether such an argument is accepted is likely to depend upon the assessment of expert evidence.

Gypsies and Travellers who can show that they are members of a distinct ethnic group can use the RRA, supplemented by the Race Relations (Amendment) Act 2000 (RRAA), to combat racism and discrimination.
http://www.yourrights.org.uk/yourrig...mination.shtml

Outside of America things are very different. In America, even though the country is made up of so many different cultures, everyone has something that unites them, and that is that they are all Americans. So white people from different ethnic groups can go to America and become Americanised very easily.
The American definitions of Race may be sufficient for America, but they do not apply worldwide.

But outside of America the differences are huge, and people with the same skin colour consider themselves to belong to different races and groups and have nothing to unite them, racism can occur.
The examples I gave earlier of ethnic cleansing in China by the Japanese, and in Rwanda, and in Europe by the Nazis, these are all examples of racism yet the victims and the perpetrators were the same colour.

It is important to realise that these issues are viewed differently in different parts of the world, because the situations are so different. Just because it is a different point of view, and possibly difficult to understand without experience, doesn't make it wrong.
post #140 of 417
I'm giving up now, there's no point in me trying to explain the way things are here. I'm never going to change anyones opinion. As long as people refuse to open their minds and accept that the rest of the world isn't just like America and that different rules apply, then this is completely pointless. The meaning of the term race isn't even universally agreed on, so trying to explain what is considered racism in different countries is impossible if people refuse to believe that there can be any other point of view other than the one that exists the the country they live in, and applies to the races and ethnic groups that they are familiar with.

I'm just repeating myself. I'm glad I found this thread though, because I learned alot about racism in general, and how things are in America. I hope at least one person has learned something from what I have said, or at least given some thought to how things are different outside of America.
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