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post #361 of 417
I've been following the discussion with interest. What I do tend to find frustrating is that these dialogues typically move into a white/black discussion, where the reality of race in America isn't the interplay of (a) and (b), but rather the interplay of (a),(b), (c), (d), (e), (f), etc., etc.

Taking futurmama's example of college admissions, I think everyone with any connection with the mainstream academic world, especially before the Supreme Court's opinion in the Regents case, has to acknowledge the general racial hierarchy in college admissions, that being:

Black/Native American
Hispanic
White
Asian and East Indian

So what does this mean about the race + power dynamic between say Black/Hispanic or Black/Asian in America? Does "power" as it is being used in this discussion INCLUDE the power to move/cause the majority group to act on your behalf or to benefit your group above others?
post #362 of 417
Thanks for joining the discussion Jane91!

The power structure is white all around. So it is a white v black/Na/Asian/East Indian/ Pacific Islander/Hispanic. None of those people are in more power then the other. They are all the minority within the power structure. A black person can't have power over a hispanic person because the black guy isn't even in power and vice versa.
post #363 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane91 View Post

So what does this mean about the race + power dynamic between say Black/Hispanic or Black/Asian in America? Does "power" as it is being used in this discussion INCLUDE the power to move/cause the majority group to act on your behalf or to benefit your group above others?
I really think it could be a moot question considering that 2005 stats showed that 8% of AA graduated college as opposed to 16% of whites. That's still a huge difference. Of course to complicate it further, Asian Americans have a higher graduation rate than whites.

*I'm still looking for application v. admissions stats, though. Got a link by chance?*
post #364 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane91 View Post
I've been following the discussion with interest. What I do tend to find frustrating is that these dialogues typically move into a white/black discussion, where the reality of race in America isn't the interplay of (a) and (b), but rather the interplay of (a),(b), (c), (d), (e), (f), etc., etc.

Taking futurmama's example of college admissions, I think everyone with any connection with the mainstream academic world, especially before the Supreme Court's opinion in the Regents case, has to acknowledge the general racial hierarchy in college admissions, that being:

Black/Native American
Hispanic
White
Asian and East Indian

So what does this mean about the race + power dynamic between say Black/Hispanic or Black/Asian in America? Does "power" as it is being used in this discussion INCLUDE the power to move/cause the majority group to act on your behalf or to benefit your group above others?
I'm trying to understand your hierarchy. I assume it's going in descending order, with what you see to be the most powerful on the bottom?
post #365 of 417
"The power structure is white all around. So it is a white v black/Na/Asian/East Indian/ Pacific Islander/Hispanic. None of those people are in more power then the other. They are all the minority within the power structure. A black person can't have power over a hispanic person because the black guy isn't even in power and vice versa."

But doesn't this ignore the fact that certain minority groups may have much better access and/or leverage with the majority group than others? That they may potentially ally themselves with a majority group on certain points or issues, and therefore advantage themselves versus other groups? At what point does that become the power + discrimination formula?

I wonder what happens when we no longer have a majority white population in the US, but rather a racial plurality? Will Hispanics and Blacks be able to ally themselves into becoming the "power" group?

Missy --

"I'm trying to understand your hierarchy. I assume it's going in descending order, with what you see to be the most powerful on the bottom?"

Nope -- its most powerful first, at least for admissions purposes (particularly for selective or highly selective colleges). In other words -- all things being equal the Black candidate is generally considered to be the most desirable by admissions offices. An Asian candidate generally has to be better qualified than a white (or black or hispanic) candidate in order for admission.

Danelle --

"Of course to complicate it further, Asian Americans have a higher graduation rate than whites."

And, if I am recalling it correctly, Blacks of African origin also have a higher graduation rate than Whites, definitely from high school (I think the number I saw was 94%) and I believe also from college. I'll have to poke around to see what I can find in terms of numbers.

A friend once pointed out that the press treats Asians as defacto whites on certain issues (particularly education). For example any news article titled "Minorities Underperform Whites on State Achievement Tests" is implicitly excluding Asians from their usage of the term "minorities" as Asians traditionally outperform Whites.
post #366 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane91 View Post
"
Missy --

"I'm trying to understand your hierarchy. I assume it's going in descending order, with what you see to be the most powerful on the bottom?"

Nope -- its most powerful first, at least for admissions purposes (particularly for selective or highly selective colleges). In other words -- all things being equal the Black candidate is generally considered to be the most desirable by admissions offices. An Asian candidate generally has to be better qualified than a white (or black or hispanic) candidate in order for admission.

Am I correct in assuming then that you are a Director of Admissions at a highly selective college?
post #367 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by reikimama View Post
Our three kids are darker than my MIL. Her family is AA & Blackfeet Indian. She was listed as white on her birth certificate. I SWEAR the officials went into the nursery and just checked it off without talking or seeing her parents.

My in-laws now make the statement that because I have Lumbee Indian in me (and it's a tri-racial group) that I'm not at all white. The 80% German & Amish is somehow forgotten. They say that this is why the kids aren't light-skinned. Of course, this is forgotten when I act like a hippie white girl to them.:

This is compounded by the fact that the kids are much darker than any of their mixed cousins and even a few of their non-mixed cousins. From DH's side of the family, I have to listen to the "Those kids don't look white at all," statement continuously.

Honestly, I get along well with DH's side. We'll see what happens when we move within an hour of where he grew up. Who knows what they will think then.

On my side, the least headstrong child is the one that my parents are attached to. Sadly, they don't even act like the others really exist. We don't see them much because of that. That story is another whole bag of chips, anway.
I was reading and saw that you have Lumbee Indian in your family...we live not far from Lumberton, NC. Are you from that area?
post #368 of 417
"Am I correct in assuming then that you are a Director of Admissions at a highly selective college?"

I am best friends since elementary school with the daughter of the Director of Admissions at one of the public ivys and heard the Director discuss these issues a number of times.

I also attended law school while the Regents case was being litigated/decided and heard issues about race and college admissions being discussed numerous times, including several presentations and a panel with admissions officers.

Anyone who believes that the under-representation of certain minorities at universities is the result of discrimination at the admissions office level versus the awful job many of our public schools do preparing minority students for college hasn't visited academia recently.
post #369 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane91 View Post

I wonder what happens when we no longer have a majority white population in the US, but rather a racial plurality? Will Hispanics and Blacks be able to ally themselves into becoming the "power" group?
Now I am reminded of the conversation I had with a fellow 9th grader when I was such. We started talking about the movie Roots. (I am black, she is white) I said that was horrible what whites did to blacks back then. Her response was if you guys were control you would have enslaved us. Out the window goes the conversation.

This assumption that our goal is payback. Are we not a new thought of mom wanting a better tomorrow for our kids? Are we not seeking a new ways to embrace people? Do you really see blacks and others as looking to oppress you?
post #370 of 417
"This assumption that our goal is payback. Are we not a new thought of mom wanting a better tomorrow for our kids? Are we not seeking a new ways to embrace people? Do you really see blacks and others as looking to oppress you?"

Nope, and that's not what I indicated in my original question. My original question is to what extent can groups change their place within the existing power structure by piggy-backing off of other group's power, or by allying themselves with another group and if such alliances could ever reach a place of "racism" against another minority group not so-allied.

Inevitably, at a certain point, Whites will not be the majority race in the USA. As we are a representative democracy, this opens up opportunities for other groups to more easily elect and chose representatives of their own race (if they so choose) or representatives that further issues important to that particular racial group (restitution/immigration, etc.). I am interested in a discussion of the extent to which such different minorities would be cohesive and/or antagonistic in terms of trying to achieve their goals.

For example, I have lived near a majority Black city with a large Mexicantown area, which has essentially suppressed Hispanic representation for years simply by electing its City Council "at large" rather than by district. This is something that will continue to play out on a larger scale as the White population forms a smaller percentage of the total population.
post #371 of 417
Quote:
Nope -- its most powerful first, at least for admissions purposes (particularly for selective or highly selective colleges). In other words -- all things being equal the Black candidate is generally considered to be the most desirable by admissions offices. An Asian candidate generally has to be better qualified than a white (or black or hispanic) candidate in order for admission.
I think that your key words there are "all things being equal". Because, generally, all things will not be equal and, right there, your hierarchy of power crumbles.

And actually, yes, I do think there is a fair amount of discrimination that still takes place at the admissions level. Additionally, at one time, schools in Virginia had a policy of allowing minorities at state schools to attend tuition-free. At state supported HBCUs, whites went tuition-free because they were a minority on campus. Unfortunately, this policy was not communicated to black students at predominantly white schools, which means many either didn't go to college or didn't finish. So maybe, at some schools, the discrimination isn't as much at the admissions level, but it does happen and the impact is the same. So again, your hierarchy doesn't work.
post #372 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane91;13447056[QUOTE
]"The power structure is white all around. So it is a white v black/Na/Asian/East Indian/ Pacific Islander/Hispanic. None of those people are in more power then the other. They are all the minority within the power structure. A black person can't have power over a hispanic person because the black guy isn't even in power and vice versa."

But doesn't this ignore the fact that certain minority groups may have much better access and/or leverage with the majority group than others? That they may potentially ally themselves with a majority group on certain points or issues, and therefore advantage themselves versus other groups? At what point does that become the power + discrimination formula?
A minority will not align with white people because they will never be white. A minority is a minority and will never be considered white. Just because you may believe certain issues that the majority has, it doesn't mean you will "become" part of the majority. Again when we say POWER we are talking SYSTEMIC and INSTITUTIONAL, that is government, judges, school admissions people, police, minorities are far from becoming in power within these systems.

Quote:
I wonder what happens when we no longer have a majority white population in the US, but rather a racial plurality? Will Hispanics and Blacks be able to ally themselves into becoming the "power" group?
Won't matter if the U.S population is majority hispanic (since they are projected to become the majority in a few years) the power structure of systemic and institutional power will still be in control of white people. They may have a better chance of entering these power structures like congress but the majority in these will be white.

Quote:
Missy --

"I'm trying to understand your hierarchy. I assume it's going in descending order, with what you see to be the most powerful on the bottom?"

Nope -- its most powerful first, at least for admissions purposes (particularly for selective or highly selective colleges). In other words -- all things being equal the Black candidate is generally considered to be the most desirable by admissions offices. An Asian candidate generally has to be better qualified than a white (or black or hispanic) candidate in order for admission.
Why are they most desirable? That is the true question to ask.

Danelle --

Quote:
"Of course to complicate it further, Asian Americans have a higher graduation rate than whites."

And, if I am recalling it correctly, Blacks of African origin also have a higher graduation rate than Whites, definitely from high school (I think the number I saw was 94%) and I believe also from college. I'll have to poke around to see what I can find in terms of numbers.

A friend once pointed out that the press treats Asians as defacto whites on certain issues (particularly education). For example any news article titled "Minorities Underperform Whites on State Achievement Tests" is implicitly excluding Asians from their usage of the term "minorities" as Asians traditionally outperform Whites.
Black graduation rate=51%, 19,333,763.91 out of 303,824,640
White graduation rate=72%, 171,255,566.88 out of 303,824,640
Hispanic=52%, 22,197,356.48 out of 303,824,640
Asian=79%, 10,023,102.88 out of 303,824,640
Native American=54%, 1,546,020.54 out of 303,824,640
Got from this and the U.S census bureau.
These are graduation rates and college graduation rates get much lower. There is a huge disparity betweeen whites and minorites. So when you look at percentages you need to look at that in terms of the race as a percentage in the U.S. A higher percentage is not always a better thing.

Asians are seen as the model minority" which says a lot for how this nation views minorities. College graduation rates for minorities are much more dismal.
post #373 of 417
[QUOTE=Jane91;13447269]
Quote:
Nope, and that's not what I indicated in my original question. My original question is to what extent can groups change their place within the existing power structure by piggy-backing off of other group's power, or by allying themselves with another group and if such alliances could ever reach a place of "racism" against another minority group not so-allied.
Why should there even be alliances against groups just so you can get power over another group?? That just makes Yinsum's point. Minorties don't see a let's get with the white people so we can be more powerful than that other group. That is a very horrible thing to even suggest be done.

Quote:
Inevitably, at a certain point, Whites will not be the majority race in the USA. As we are a representative democracy, this opens up opportunities for other groups to more easily elect and chose representatives of their own race (if they so choose) or representatives that further issues important to that particular racial group (restitution/immigration, etc.). I am interested in a discussion of the extent to which such different minorities would be cohesive and/or antagonistic in terms of trying to achieve their goals.
As I said whether whites are in the minority population wise they will still be the majority within the power structures of this country.
post #374 of 417
Thanks futurmama
post #375 of 417
Your welcome girl
post #376 of 417
I'm pretty nervous about asking this but I figure what the heck.

As a white person how should I behave in order to combat racism? I'm very serious. I'm not going to claim that I am 'color blind' because I'm not. I notice when people are different than me and I notice how we are similar. When I taught I did my best to call students on their racist language/attitudes and I did my best to make sure that the POC kids felt like they weren't being drowned out by the white kids. (I was told I did that pretty well.)

But this all feels like not enough. When I read threads like this (and I read the whole thing) it feels like there is an attitude of, "POC suffer because of whites" and there is a lot of blame associated with that and I don't know what to do about it. I cast my vote for the most qualified candidate and that means that I vote for people of all colors but I'm not going to vote against whites just because they are white anymore than I will with any other race.

I feel like there is no way for whites to atone for white guilt and that feels very frustrating.
post #377 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by futurmama8 View Post



Black graduation rate=51%, 19,333,763.91 out of 303,824,640
White graduation rate=72%, 171,255,566.88 out of 303,824,640
Hispanic=52%, 22,197,356.48 out of 303,824,640
Asian=79%, 10,023,102.88 out of 303,824,640
Native American=54%, 1,546,020.54 out of 303,824,640
Got from this and the U.S census bureau.
These are graduation rates and college graduation rates get much lower. There is a huge disparity betweeen whites and minorites. So when you look at percentages you need to look at that in terms of the race as a percentage in the U.S. A higher percentage is not always a better thing.

Asians are seen as the model minority" which says a lot for how this nation views minorities. College graduation rates for minorities are much more dismal.
Thank you futuremama8. I don't know why stats are so easily ignored. My college experience: Predominantly white, HOWEVER, I was in a student work program through the college that gave me a job in their library. I was the *only* white person in my department in the program. My more economically privileged counterparts had daddy's credit cards and their own apartments. What an eye opening experience. Even watching my workmates work twice as hard in the same classes.

I stand by my statement that the Affirmative Action Admissions vs. other admissions is moot. The point of AA is to help minorities, and when they still have a significantly lower graduation rate, it's OBVIOUS to me that those students are still running into the white power structures that dominate educational institutions.
post #378 of 417
I think futurmama posed a valid question:
Why are AAs the most desirable candidates?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane91 View Post
Anyone who believes that the under-representation of certain minorities at universities is the result of discrimination at the admissions office level versus the awful job many of our public schools do preparing minority students for college hasn't visited academia recently.
Yeah, there’s no arguing that the public schools neglect to prepare minority students (and poor students) for college entry. Let’s not forget that politics and economic power are what influence the quality of public schools, provided for by local and state government.

As a side note: When it comes to education, *I* don’t believe everyone should be college bound. The most “successful” people that *I personally know* never went to college (let me also add, they are all immigrants). So, while I agree that we should recruit and provide higher education for whoever is qualified and interested in pursuing it, I don’t think it’s the only route to help our citizens become productive members of society. Therefore, I don’t believe the sole focus should entail college entrance or attendance.

Back to how poorly the schools prepare students for college, my mind’s scattered in many directions- trying to expand on this point without writing a thesis

The few examples that come to mind - come from various sources (OK, I admit -from all over the place. <shrug>).
First, one isolated example I’m thinking of- is from the movie “Stand and Deliver”, based on a true story about a teacher (Escalante) in East L.A. High School, where the expectations of students (mostly Mexican) was so low, AP courses (Calculus) weren’t even offered.

Next, Jonathan Kozol (heard him speak live about a decade ago), author of several books where he discusses the disparity in education based on class and race. He examines the deplorable conditions and segregation that still exists for minority students in the public schools today, more than half a century after Brown vs. the Board of Ed.
A summary of his book, “Savage Inequalities”
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~kasto...ws-savage.html

Here’s J. Kozol on youtube, The Shame of the Nation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VS9XHbEaFY
Another youtube vid, "Education in America" (6 parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgkZK...eature=related

Let me add: According to Kozol, the most segregated school systems in the country are NY, Michigan, and Illinois- in that order.

Thanks to this thread, I’ve also found some vids on youtube of Tim Wise (author of “White Like Me”)...... but I’m having trouble finding the link where he talks about how the lack of AP/college prep courses (paraphrasing, I have to find that link) in minority schools.

Lastly, I think of First Lady Michelle Obama’s undergraduate thesis at Princeton, “Educated Blacks and the Black Community”(1985) ....
What's the experience of students once they're in colleges/universy? (How relevant is this today? I mean, with the increase pressure of political correctness, there might be a decrease in openly expressing racism. But what about people's deep-rooted ideas about race?)
An excerpt from the 1st Lady’s thesis: “My experiences at Princeton have made me far more aware of my “Blackness” than ever before. I have found that at Princeton no matter how liberal and open-minded some of my White professors and classmates try to be toward me, I sometimes feel like a visitor on campus; as if I really don’t belong. Regardless of the circumstances underwhich I interact with Whites at Princeton, it often seems as if, to them, I will always be Black first and a student second. ”
http://www.scribd.com/doc/2305083/Pr...lack-Community

I have a few minority friends who encountered a similar experience to the 1st Lady. One friend of mine struggled so much, that she dropped out of Columbia.
post #379 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jane91 View Post
But doesn't this ignore the fact that certain minority groups may have much better access and/or leverage with the majority group than others? That they may potentially ally themselves with a majority group on certain points or issues, and therefore advantage themselves versus other groups? At what point does that become the power + discrimination formula?
Historically, the minority groups that have been able to integrate with the majority, just do so. They haven't "turned on" the majority group.
At least, that has been the experience of most European minority groups in the past who have joined together to form the White majority race.
If you get a chance, watch Tim Wise.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npP3g1OEE1A

Quote:
I wonder what happens when we no longer have a majority white population in the US, but rather a racial plurality? Will Hispanics and Blacks be able to ally themselves into becoming the "power" group?
Who knows? I don't see Hispanics/Blacks come into power anytime soon, not even if they make up the majority in numbers.
I already mentioned that the 2000 Census changed it's criteria to defining the White race to pertain to anyone whose ancestry is at least 75% European, Middle Eastern, or Northern African.
I fit that description, but physically I don't fit the perception of White (DNA's funny like that), nor would I self-identify as such. I bet if we strictly adhere to this new description, plenty of people who self-identify or are identified by others as members of other races (AA, Asian, Native American, Hispanic) would all now qualify as White. But when you're not perceived nor do you self-identify as such, that's pretty confusing. I questioned earlier in the thread what the motive in implementing this change was and how relevant it is to the increase in population of minority groups of color. I'm not sure if this was pushed by the minority groups or from elsewhere?
Quote:
For example, I have lived near a majority Black city with a large Mexicantown area, which has essentially suppressed Hispanic representation for years simply by electing its City Council "at large" rather than by district. This is something that will continue to play out on a larger scale as the White population forms a smaller percentage of the total population.
We'll probably continue to witness this type of "restructuring" (don't know what else to call it), as the groups in power try to maintain the status quo.
Quote:
And, if I am recalling it correctly, Blacks of African origin also have a higher graduation rate than Whites, definitely from high school (I think the number I saw was 94%) and I believe also from college. I'll have to poke around to see what I can find in terms of numbers.
Other immigrant groups (or their children) have also outnumbered Whites in college graduation.

However, I'd caution that it's not fair to compare immigrant groups to American minority groups (including to poor Whites).
You have to look beyond the surface into each individual immigrant group and what they're comprised of.
Some immigrant groups predominantly come from the lower socioeconomic groups of their native country and their compatriots who belong to a higher socioeconomic status remain in their countries of origin. These immigrants for the most part are already poor, poorly educated, poorly skilled, in addition to having to deal with typical immigrant obstacles to assimilation. Of course, it's more difficult for them to succeed than it is for other immigrant groups to.
Other immigrant groups, come from the higher socioeconomic status in their countries of origin, so they have less obstacles to overcome.
Immigrants who conglomerate into neighborhoods where they can open up their own businesses (high demand for their products/services), creating their own opportunities (not having to compete with other Americans for jobs), increasing their political power by their numbers- are likely to move up the socioeconomic ladder quickly.
post #380 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoMaH View Post
I already mentioned that the 2000 Census changed it's criteria to defining the White race to pertain to anyone whose ancestry is at least 75% European, Middle Eastern, or Northern African.

I must have missed that post. According to that, I am not white, because I am 50% Swiss, the other half being a combination of Mexican and Native American.
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