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Reverse racism - Page 5

post #81 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by candipooh View Post
I just had to say it

Missy....you rock.
Yeah Missy!

So do you Kelly!
You're certainly not running away.
post #82 of 417
What happens frequently, even constantly, in discussions about racism is that one person will jump in with "but I'm white, and I was a victim of racism!" and someone else will jump in with, "Yeah!! A black person was mean to me last week!" and then, "Hey, yeah! Once, when I was ten, a black girl called me a mean name for a white person!" and then all these people are like, "Yeah, see?? Black people can be racist, too! Why can't we talk about that?" and the original discussion is lost. The people who want to continue the original discussion try to steer it back in the midst of all of this, and eventually it all gets tangled up into a separate discussion about what racism is, really, and someone goes and pulls out Websters and someone else goes and pulls out their sociology book and somehow we never quite get back to the original topic because the conversation has been so completely derailed. It's frustrating as hell.

I'm not talking about sitting down on, say, Metro and initiating a conversation with the people around you. That generally doesn't go very well. Particularly on Metro where people don't want to even acknowledge that there are other people around them, let alone actually talk to them. When I talk about "conversation", I mean the dialogue that should be on-going.

Those incidents that occurred as a response to Obama's rise to the Presidency were not isolated. They were a pattern that needed to be discussed as such--and they haven't been. The media could, for weeks, dissect every word spoken by Rev. Wright and yet dismiss the words and actions of this country's political leaders with very little discussion. That alone, the ease with which we dismiss those words and actions, is a huge part of the conversation. Slavery is part of it and can't be separated from the dialogue, but it's more than that. It's just that, again, people use their lack of ancestral connection to slavery as an excuse not to engage in conversation or to examine themselves.

It's also a sort of private joke among people who are often involved in conversations about race, wondering how long before someone pulls out the Irish. Because again, doing so only deflects from the needed discussion.

When I pointed out that Wilder's term was followed by Allen, I wasn't referring to political party. I don't care that Allen was Republican any more than I care that Gilmore was. My point was that, right after we celebrated the first black man elected to the office of Governor, we turned around and elected a man that I'm not allowed to call a racist ass because it would violate the UA. Suffice it to say that the man hung a noose in his law office and called it a lasso, and had a history of questionable language. That's what pissed me off, not his party affiliation.
post #83 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly1101 View Post
In the south, VERY common. In the north, probably not so much.
When it does happen? Oh, definitely among the poor. Then again, poor areas of the south ARE very poor.
I certainly get what you're getting at, and you're right and I agree. Races often fall along class lines, with the poor being mostly black, and the rich being mostly white (at least around here-- I am not sure about other areas of the country).
That doesn't mean that there still isn't that white kid from a poor family in a school with mostly black kids from poor families. That white kid isn't someone in "power" and doesn't know anyone in "power." His dad isn't a banker. He's at as much of a social disadvantage as the rest of the kids in that he's getting a worse education because there isn't enough money in the school system, he lives in a worse neighborhood and is more likely to get involved in drugs and crime because the same things that are available to the rich just aren't available to him.
So, in essence, that white kid has a lot more in common with the black kids in his school, than the rich white kid across town. And I don't think it's right to group him in with the rich white kid across town simply based on color.
Yeah, poverty is definitely the great divide.

But notice the last thing you wrote here:
the poor white kid is grouped in with the rich white kid across town. Sometimes it's to his benefit. (he's smart, he's trustworthy, he deserves a certain type of treatment, etc. whatever stereotypes are assigned to the rich)

However,
the rich Black kid is almost always grouped with the poor Black kid across town. Often times to his detriment. (he's not too bright, don't trust him, treat him as if he's less, etc. whatever stereotypes are assigned to the poor)

ETA: This is the essence of the racism. One glance, assumptions are made, and you are treated accordingly.
Oh, pleas no one think that I'm personally attributing any qualities (- or +) to any socioeconomic class.
post #84 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly1101 View Post
But, because in your example the black person is in power, then his actions are racism even by the definition given above-- he is in power and using that power to act in a discriminatory way against an ethnic group that is not in power and is a minority.

Saying "but they did it first a hundred years ago" is really not a valid way to look at it, and DEFINITELY doesn't keep it from being racism, because that's what it is from any definition provided.

And I don't know that, after looking it up, I CAN separate one action from a person with such a hateful and ugly attitude. There is no "reaction" that makes it just fine to say that Hitler was doing anything right.



You are right, it is human.

But the thing is, that it is perhaps difficult to see-- it really CAN go both ways. White kids aren't born racist. And if they aren't taught to be racist, they usually don't just come to it on their own. But how does it feel, to be a white person who didn't grow up racist and doesn't have those racist feelings, but then you get treated poorly from someone because of your color? How does that hurt less? And if they react to that, is that not as much of a "reaction" as if the color situation was switched?

And that is something that can be acknowledged, without ending a conversation or turning it into an excuse for white people to be racist. Saying that a white person can be hurt by being treated unfairly due to their color doesn't invalidate that hurt in a black person who is treated unfairly. We're all able to be hurt.
We have a black man in power in this country as president but it is still a racist country . Guess that example didn't fly.

Missy, LoMah and I keep telling you that of course white people can be hurt by the reactions to racism but for some reason you are not seeing that. We are saying that it is hurtful and causes bad emotions but it is not Racism. That is all we are saying.

Also you say blacks are poor while the white are rich but only in your area but that is not only true in your area. Unless you are really isolated I don't see how you can't see that in this country a disproportionate number of blacks are poor while the majority of rich people are white. Do you not agree with that?
post #85 of 417
Missy it's no secret I love you

In talking about institutional racism what are those poor children both white and black being taught about their history and their ancestors contributions to society?

Yes, it's a wonderful day that my child may look and know Obama as president. It's beautiful on some many levels. Yet look deeper, it's one president among 43 other white presidents. And history our kids learn in most public schools is not that evolved in giving the real story versus HIStory.

It's a disservice to all children actually. Lack of the truth continues to hurt all children even now. Dismissing the impact of systematic racism as an ailment to our society impedes moves towards healing.
Yes all wounds hurt. Let's recognize for many years non white children have not had the benefit of social bandages: positive perceptions of themselves in the media, benefit of the doubt when facing the legal troubles...
I have more to say, but need to come back
post #86 of 417
[QUOTE=Missy;13346683] My point was that, right after we celebrated the first black man elected to the office of Governor, we turned around and elected a man that I'm not allowed to call a racist ass because it would violate the UA. QUOTE]

Yeah you are pretty awesome. I love reading your posts.
post #87 of 417
This is a really interesting discussion. I am not American and I had never heard this point of view before. Where I come from, in Europe, racism is generally believed to mean discrimination based on race.
The country I live in has no history of slavery, so I have never come accross a person who has been affected by it.

But I'm just wondering, if a black person cannot be racist against a white person because white people make up the majority, can they be racist against an asian person?
Can an asian person be racist against white people? Can white people be racist against asian people? What about other minorities? Mexican people, Italian people, Irish, Polish?
post #88 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Susuwatari View Post
But I'm just wondering, if a black person cannot be racist against a white person because white people make up the majority, can they be racist against an asian person?
Can an asian person be racist against white people? Can white people be racist against asian people? What about other minorities? Mexican people, Italian people, Irish, Polish?
Susuwatari
Those are some complex questions..
I certainly won't profess to know the answers to them.
I'll take a stab at it though, please keep in mind that I may very well be inaccurate. So, I hope others will chime in.

Remember, they can ALL be prejudice, but when it comes to racism (as a group in power, perhaps not as individuals or that everyone in that group is deliberately racist):
black against asian? I dunno.
asian against white? Probably not, asians aren't the group in power.
white against asian? yes.
white against Mexican? Yes.
white against Polish? Italian? Irish? Honestly don't know for sure. Those ethnicities are now considered white.

The Irish and Italians went through hardships during periods when large groups immigrated here. They definitely were discriminated against. They weren't categorized as white then, until they fought for that privilege and won.
However, I'm really not sure that it's called racism. Though- they were definitely kept from moving up the socioeconomic ladder. ???

The more assimilated a group becomes to the majority culture:
-the more similar to the majority's physical appearance,
-lose the accent, learn English, speak "proper" English.
-dress like the majority
-become highly educated
-highly paid
-political power (numbers and representation)

the easier it is to climb up that ladder and be accepted.
These aren't simple for every group to achieve (and for some of these categories- why should they have to completely assimilate?) Slavery added so many more obstacles for AA (no right to own land, to get married, to go to school, to work where you wanted, to vote, etc..) for generations, so it's been that much tougher to overcome.
Where other groups haven't been oppressed as long.

That's my guess.
I really hope others can answer this better than i can and more elaborately.

I got to go cook, my family's hungry.
post #89 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoMaH View Post
Yeah Missy!

So do you Kelly!
You're certainly not running away.
Heh, thanks... I'm trying not to, because I think THAT is the real thing that kills the conversation...getting too frustrated about different opinions and either letting things disintegrate, or giving up. But I think that these conversations DO need to happen more often, and as long as they aren't motivated by hate or from a stubborn position of prejudice, they end up being at least thought-provoking.

And argh I want to respond to all the other posts, but no time tonight, will definitely be back tomorrow, I'm not ignoring anyone
post #90 of 417
This thread is making me very sad. I remember the difficult road it was to get MDC to agree to having a multi-cultural forum. The concern being that it would disintegrate into further arguments about racism, which was a pretty hot topic at the time as well. And it was so discouraging to some to feel like TPTB didn't understand the need for a sanctuary where multi-cultural families could go and post and not have to over and over again define racism, give another patient tutorial to persons who didn't want to take the time to educate themselves. Is there a topic here other than hair that can be discussed without anger?
post #91 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
This thread is making me very sad. I remember the difficult road it was to get MDC to agree to having a multi-cultural forum. The concern being that it would disintegrate into further arguments about racism, which was a pretty hot topic at the time as well. And it was so discouraging to some to feel like TPTB didn't understand the need for a sanctuary where multi-cultural families could go and post and not have to over and over again define racism, give another patient tutorial to persons who didn't want to take the time to educate themselves. Is there a topic here other than hair that can be discussed without anger?



thank you.
post #92 of 417
artgoddess, thank you for your post. This thread makes me incredibly sad. Your words resonate everything I felt but couldn't type out.
post #93 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
This thread is making me very sad. I remember the difficult road it was to get MDC to agree to having a multi-cultural forum. The concern being that it would disintegrate into further arguments about racism, which was a pretty hot topic at the time as well. And it was so discouraging to some to feel like TPTB didn't understand the need for a sanctuary where multi-cultural families could go and post and not have to over and over again define racism, give another patient tutorial to persons who didn't want to take the time to educate themselves. Is there a topic here other than hair that can be discussed without anger?


Not even hair can be discussed tbh, go look at the "other" thread. I hope we can have these discussions where people don't run and leave and not participate but its hard to see reality sometimes.
post #94 of 417
artgoddess
If that's the consensus, then I, for one, will retreat.

I would like to add that *I* didn't perceive anger in any post here. But, I'll respect if others do and want the discussion to end.

My personal experiences regarding race/culture in my every day life have been by far positive. I wouldn't be justified to be angry at any group. I've been very fortunate.

Of the very few negative personal encounters I've had in my 40+ yrs., with several of these incidents- I've been able to make amends with the person/s involved. I'll admit, they've caught me off guard when they happened because I don't have much experience with how to deal with them and I'm not walking around expecting them.
But, I'm glad I've had them because they've made me stronger and more compassionate towards people.

Ah, enough of that. Take care.
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
This thread is making me very sad. I remember the difficult road it was to get MDC to agree to having a multi-cultural forum. The concern being that it would disintegrate into further arguments about racism, which was a pretty hot topic at the time as well. And it was so discouraging to some to feel like TPTB didn't understand the need for a sanctuary where multi-cultural families could go and post and not have to over and over again define racism, give another patient tutorial to persons who didn't want to take the time to educate themselves. Is there a topic here other than hair that can be discussed without anger?
post #95 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoMaH View Post
artgoddess
If that's the consensus, then I, for one, will retreat.

I would like to add that *I* didn't perceive anger in any post here. But, I'll respect if others do and want the discussion to end.

My personal experiences regarding race/culture in my every day life have been by far positive. I wouldn't be justified to be angry at any group. I've been very fortunate.

Of the very few negative personal encounters I've had in my 40+ yrs., with several of these incidents- I've been able to make amends with the person/s involved. I'll admit, they've caught me off guard when they happened because I don't have much experience with how to deal with them and I'm not walking around expecting them.
But, I'm glad I've had them because they've made me stronger and more compassionate towards people.

Ah, enough of that. Take care.
I think it's wonderful that you've only had a few negative encounters related to race and culture, but, for a lot of us, that is so far from our experience. In the 25 years since my husband and I started dating, racism has been a constant. It just is. And I accept that knowing that I can walk away from it. My husband can't. My kids can't. They can't step out of their skin. What I experience is a fraction of my husband's experience, and it is still very often overwhelming.

What art is referring to is the frustration that many of us dealt with trying to create this space, the same frustration that makes this space necessary. It is tiring to break things down over and over and sometimes it's nice to have a place to talk about race and racism, and its impact without having to defend a definition. It is especially exhausting to break things down over and over only to have it go nowhere, to see no effort at growth or understanding. Or worse, to realize that the discussions are a form of entertainment to someone, realizing that someone can raise questions and challenge your experiences and then simply walk away with no investment. Because discussions about racism are much more than entertainment or brain candy to so many of us; we are invested in the discussions because they are part of our reality.

So, while I'm not getting the same depth of anger that line so many other discussions, the potential is there.
post #96 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoMaH View Post
artgoddess
If that's the consensus, then I, for one, will retreat.

I would like to add that *I* didn't perceive anger in any post here. But, I'll respect if others do and want the discussion to end.
Agreed. I'm sorry if it's been inappropriate to have this discussion in this thread.
post #97 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by artgoddess View Post
This thread is making me very sad. I remember the difficult road it was to get MDC to agree to having a multi-cultural forum. The concern being that it would disintegrate into further arguments about racism, which was a pretty hot topic at the time as well. And it was so discouraging to some to feel like TPTB didn't understand the need for a sanctuary where multi-cultural families could go and post and not have to over and over again define racism, give another patient tutorial to persons who didn't want to take the time to educate themselves. Is there a topic here other than hair that can be discussed without anger?
I hope my questions didn't upset anyone. I was just genuinely curious seeing as the term seems to mean something completely different in America to here. That must be because our experiences of it throughout history have been so different.
My family is multi-cultural but we have been fortunate enough not to have experienced many incidences of racism.
post #98 of 417
I took artgoddess' post as saying its good we have these conversations but why do we keep having to have them. So would you like for us to stop talking about it because I would not like to make people feel I am invading their space

Is their a place on this board where we can talk about race without having to be so structured and just tell our experiences with it?

I really don't want to leave BUT I see that LoMah did and I don't know why, I feel like I should too now so let me know if I should just BACK OUT. I love having these discussions but its not worth people getting offended
post #99 of 417
I think the discussions are good. I think they are an invaluable part of moving forward. I get frustrated when it starts to feel like it's not going anywhere. And, like I said, when it becomes clear that it's not "real" to others, that it's a nice way to pass time and that they can just walk away from the computer and leave te discussion without further thought. That's what seemed to be happening repeatedly on other parts of the board. I think what Art saw is that we were once again repeating and repeating and repeating, and it probably felt like we were going nowhere. If it feels like we're going somewhere, then it's worth it, but--too often, elsewhere on the board--there have been people who are not willing to do the work, who back away and get defensive and angry as soon as it gets uncomfortable and that's just not productive.

I'm not sure there is a better on the board to have this discussion anymore.
post #100 of 417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Missy View Post
I think the discussions are good. I think they are an invaluable part of moving forward. I get frustrated when it starts to feel like it's not going anywhere. And, like I said, when it becomes clear that it's not "real" to others, that it's a nice way to pass time and that they can just walk away from the computer and leave te discussion without further thought. That's what seemed to be happening repeatedly on other parts of the board. I think what Art saw is that we were once again repeating and repeating and repeating, and it probably felt like we were going nowhere. If it feels like we're going somewhere, then it's worth it, but--too often, elsewhere on the board--there have been people who are not willing to do the work, who back away and get defensive and angry as soon as it gets uncomfortable and that's just not productive.

I'm not sure there is a better on the board to have this discussion anymore.
Thanks for your insight and explanation. I really want this to continue so that kelly and susuwatari will see where we are coming from.

Its really hard to believe that on MDC, which is a VERY progressive site, but I would expect the people on here to be a little more open then the regular ya know. I will continue if no matter what. I wish we could post in the racism thread about this kind of stuff and have these kind of discussions.
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