Racial identification - Page 3

[Joyster]

Originally Posted by Jannah6

Let me just say this and then I'm done. I'm not a confrontational person, at all. Few things upset me. Joyster, I posted a response to your original posting and that posting hit a nerve. So, I talked about something that plagues people of color, especially many Blacks in America.

I'm not sure why you would be provoked to say that from my post, and yes, it felt very personal since you went on a personal vent of yours as a response to my post. Saying that it hit a nerve just seems to be a way to avoid any discussion around it, but since you're done, there's not much point. pax!

[futurmama8]

Originally Posted by Joyster

My youngest should "pass" for white, my oldest should too.

Umm this is why I thought that... What else could I possibly get from that?

Originally Posted by Joyster

Well first of all, I'm not in America. Secondly, I'm not teaching my kids to pass (How do you do that anyways? Is there a way to be white?) and no where did I say I was. They just simply will by virtue of their skin colour. I can't do anything about that. However they do need to be taught that with white skin, comes privileges because our society is still racist. I'm sorry you have a problem with that.

I never said you were in america what I said was and I quote, " Man america and the WORLD needs a change" I hope you are part of the world. From looking at your kids they don't look white they look biracial so if they are not to to take advantage of white privilege then they won't. I am not understanding why you would want your kids to take advantage of a system that is very injust??
If you read my post I specifically said and I quote " Man American and thWORLD needs a change, I would think you;

Originally Posted by Joyster

Okay I see where I have been misunderstood and I'm sorry for not being clearer.

I am not teaching my kids to pass, they simply will, they are white skinned. I am teaching them about white skin privilege not so that they will take advantage of it (as much as that is possible). I am teaching it, so that they understand that others do not have it and they need to be aware of that and that privilege comes with "race" and class. And I hope with that understanding, they will not feel the need to take advantage of programs that aren't necessarily targeted towards people with white skin privilege, despite having 1/8 of this or 1/8 of that.


I really want to address a point that I found really hurtful.



I married my husband because I loved him. We've been together for 16 years now. My children are beautiful, I didn't marry my husband to have white children. To imply such a thing is one of the more nastier things that has been said about me online.

I would have appreciated a request for clarification before jumping to this conclusion, but hey, assume the worst.

How will your kids pass on their own?? You say you get tired of people asking what you are but I suspect your kids will too because they don't look white. Also by having a mother who is of color they will probably know they aren't white..instead of teaching them about how they will benefit from white skin privilege (because it is not as obvious as you think and you would probably never know) maybe you should teach them that they are a combination of you and your husband and let them identify themselves. I just think that telling a kid you look white so you will benefit from white privilege is just not right because you really don't know that. Just because they are lighter than most people of color(including yourself) doesn't mean that other people won't see them as people of color. I still find your posts offending because you should try to be the change in this generation to defy racism, predjudice and discrimination not take advantage of it because of how they look.

Most programs that identify race are doing it not because of skin color but because of ethnicity. Of course if you don't look the part some questions may be raised but isn't that normal in a society who categorizes everyone. I don't think a little explanation would be that hard.

I don't think Jannah was talking about you but about how that is a problem within the U.S. Many people I know marry just so their children will have light skin and the dreaded "good hair" crap.

[Joyster]

Originally Posted by futurmama8

Umm this is why I thought that... What else could I possibly get from that?



I never said you were in america what I said was and I quote, " Man america and the WORLD needs a change" I hope you are part of the world. From looking at your kids they don't look white they look biracial so if they are not to to take advantage of white privilege then they won't. I am not understanding why you would want your kids to take advantage of a system that is very injust??
If you read my post I specifically said and I quote " Man American and thWORLD needs a change, I would think you;


How will your kids pass on their own?? You say you get tired of people asking what you are but I suspect your kids will too because they don't look white. Also by having a mother who is of color they will probably know they aren't white..instead of teaching them about how they will benefit from white skin privilege (because it is not as obvious as you think and you would probably never know) maybe you should teach them that they are a combination of you and your husband and let them identify themselves. I just think that telling a kid you look white so you will benefit from white privilege is just not right because you really don't know that. Just because they are lighter than most people of color(including yourself) doesn't mean that other people won't see them as people of color.

I still find your posts offending because you should try to be the change in this generation to defy racism, predjudice and discrimination not take advantage of it because of how they look.

I am confused, on one hand, you're telling me that my kids won't have white skin privilege and so not to teach them that they do, and then on the other hand, you are telling me to teach them to not take advantage of their white skin privilege (which is exactly what I will be doing when they are much much older). So which is it? I'm not quite sure why you're upset.

Now despite what you may see, many, many, many people see them as white. I'm not going to teach them that they are white, and no where did I say that. They (the 3 year old anyhow) knows very well that he is part of mommy and daddy. He will self identify. However the very fact that his skin is lighter, he will not be subjected to the same type of racism as me, or my family and they need to understand that. They may not pass as top of the food chain WASP white, but they will certainly have more white skin privilege than many people and I am as you say teaching them to "not take advantage of it because of how they look", which has been my point all along. However they have to be aware of white skin privilege in order to "defy" it.

[futurmama8]

Originally Posted by Joyster

I am confused, on one hand, you're telling me that my kids won't have white skin privilege and so not to teach them that they do, and then on the other hand, you are telling me to teach them to not take advantage of their white skin privilege (which is exactly what I will be doing when they are much much older). So which is it? I'm not quite sure why you're upset.

Now despite what you may see, many, many, many people see them as white. I'm not going to teach them that they are white, and no where did I say that. They (the 3 year old anyhow) knows very well that he is part of mommy and daddy. He will self identify. However the very fact that his skin is lighter, he will not be subjected to the same type of racism as me, or my family and they need to understand that. They may not pass as top of the food chain WASP white, but they will certainly have more white skin privilege than many people and I am as you say teaching them to "not take advantage of it because of how they look", which has been my point all along. However they have to be aware of white skin privilege in order to "defy" it.

I don't think that I once contradicted myself nor said your kids would have white skin privilege. I think I am also done with responding to your posts. I am not upset but it is pretty obvious that you want to nitpick at certain things and not address the important issue.

LOl in your previous post you said you will teach them to take advantage of their white privilege and not check black/NA boxes but now you are saying you will teach them not to take advantage.

[Joyster]

Originally Posted by futurmama8

I don't think that I once contradicted myself nor said your kids would have white skin privilege. I think I am also done with responding to your posts. I am not upset but it is pretty obvious that you want to nitpick at certain things and not address the important issue.

LOl in your previous post you said you will teach them to take advantage of their white privilege and not check black/NA boxes but now you are saying you will teach them not to take advantage.

My point is teaching my kids to be aware of their white skin privilege, which is likely going to afford them opportunities. I'm not teaching them that this is a good thing, but they very well need to be aware that they may have things a little bit easier just because of the shade of their skin.

Does anyone think that my son who is lighter than my Irish/Welsh husband is going to grow up experiencing racism the same as my father (who is black)? I certainly have no illusions of that. Even though he does have black in him, he's certainly not going to experience the levels of racism that my dad would, so why would I or he want to take advantage of a program designed to assist those who have experienced systematic racism? If he does somehow experience that racism, then by all means, use that program, but unless things to a dramatic shift in this world, I don't think that is going to be terribly likely.

I'm not nitpicking, I am genuinely confused, but if you don't want to deal with that, so be it, I can't force you. You said you were offended, to me offended also includes being upset, I'm certainly upset when I'm offended. I feel you have a set opinion of me and I believe, not much I'm going to say or do is going to change it.

[Minerva]

Let me tell you a little story, if you think people can't tell:

My parents started dating in the late 1950s in Chicago. My mother's father was white and, by all accounts, very racist.

The first time my mother took my father to meet her parents, afterwards, her father was yelling at her about how dare she bring a black man home. He knew right off, and my father wasn't all that dark-skinned.

There were other similar incidents over the years as well.


Now, I only recently discovered that my father's family was Creole and had been living as white since 1908. Most of my near cousins consider themselves black, and we have the whole range of skin tones in the family. I "caught" my father's colouring and appearance instead of my mother's, and I've had too many "what are you" questions over the years to think I look white enough for the predominantly Polish and Irish area I grew up in. I always wondered and kept being told that yes, we were white. Now I know better.

So, my point is, unless your area is really ethically diverse, people are going to notice your children look different. You should also be aware that with the right genes, it's possible to get a child darker than either parent. If you have them grow up thinking they're white, and they get married and have a child who looks darker, there's going to be issues. You don't want that.

[Joyster]

I'm sorry for editing. I do appreciate your thoughts Minerva, I just think it's probably better to take a good friend's advice and leave this thread alone. Thanks for taking the time to share though.

[torinsmom]

In my experience, African Americans can pick up on a child being even the tiniest percentage black, probably because there is so much variety in the Af-Am community. As the parent of a biracial child, I have gotten pretty good at it too. You can usually see it in a child's facial features.

My son is black/white biracial. When my he was young, I never had comments about race from white people. Sometimes, I would get, "Where does he get his curly hair", but he was so fair and with his blue eyes, they would just assume he was white. The shocked look on their faces when my ex(dark skinned) showed up and DS called him daddy was priceless, LOL

I have never really talked to DS14 about his being lighter than some black/biracial people. He knows he is biracial and I allow him to check whatever box he wants to check when he has to fill out forms. He is really proud of all his cultures, and I hope he continues to feel the same way when he is older.

Here's a picture. Sorry, proud mommy here and I just found this forum!

http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y95...of100_0265.jpg

Marsha

[VanessaS]

In my experience, African Americans can pick up on a child being even the tiniest percentage black, probably because there is so much variety in the Af-Am community.

I've had the same experience. But most white people can't tell the difference. And most everyone around here is white.

[cappuccinosmom]

My son is black/white biracial. When my he was young, I never had comments about race from white people. Sometimes, I would get, "Where does he get his curly hair", but he was so fair and with his blue eyes, they would just assume he was white. The shocked look on their faces when my ex(dark skinned) showed up and DS called him daddy was priceless, LOL

We have a family like that too in our church. As the kids get older you can definitely see more of their father in them, although they stay blond and quite light-skinned. For a long time their baby daughter, you would never guess her dad was AA, except she had this mass of absolutely wild, incredibly curly hair from the very beginning. I probably annoyed her mother but her hair was so awesome and I said so quite a few times!

I just think genetics is so fascinating. That family with AA and white mix gets beautiful blond-haired blue-eyed kids. My family, with African and white mix gets beautiful "cappuccino" babies.

[MustBeJelly]

Originally Posted by FondestBianca

so, do I think it's fair that non-white people get government, employment, and funding perks simply because they aren't white? NO! Ticks me off to no end honestly. BUT, if my kids are interested in college and in search of scholarships you better bet I'm going to encourage them to check, "hispanic" so they are elligable for hispanic only scholarships. That makes me a complete hypocrite but, such is life. While I think the world should base resources and opportunity on ACTUAL QUALIFICATIONS I don't in any way agree with obligation to fill race quotas. I know the laws to help non-whites get what is fair are there to force people to provide equally for all but, in that they are becoming unfair. I guess it was well intended but, it's not sending a good message.

What I check for my children depends on the context. On medical stuff everything they are gets checked so appropriate testing and such will be done. On financial stuff yes, I check whatever will provide the greatest benifit (again, hypocrite), on something simply to survey general appearence I check white unless it asks to indicate all (simply because they look prodominatly white).

In addition, if I weren't white I'd honestly be a little insulted in those race advantage cases and laws. It's basically saying that the gov thinks non whites are less capable of getting jobs or qualifying for college based on merit or that they are more likely to be poor than their white neighbor. Even if it's based on real statistics of any kind I'd still find it rather rude and insulting.

Really? Seriously? Because, it couldn't be that whole, stealing the land from the Indians, and then forcing them on to 'reservations', and then that whole not letting black folks go to school for 400 years, while the white folks got all the education, owned all the land, and then even after the 'emancipation' proclamation, still held all the political power, and continued systemic racism and injustice? No. Of course not.

Besides? I thought you saw one time a picture of a cousin who had a black friend, and that qualified you to post in the WOC thread?

[MustBeJelly]

Originally Posted by WilliamsMama

I haven't experienced having to choose a box yet. I was always under the impression that these things were optional. My grad school kept sending me notes asking me to fill in this information but I refused. I am black and asian, and they only told me to choose one.
William is black, asian, and white. Why do we have to choose?

As an aside, I think it's a little hypocritical to moan about how unfair AA is but still try to use it when it suits your needs.

I never choose just one. I always check both black and white. I refuse to check other, because, way to marginalize diversity. When I was in elementary school, we had to do CAT tests, and my teacher handed me my test back, with a clean answer sheet, and told me to re-do it, checking only one box for race this time.

I checked both again.

I still got my scores back.

[LoMaH]

I shouldn't post now that I'm rushing, so I hope this comes across right.

There's a difference between affirmative action and "white privilege".
aa is when you self-identify on paper.
wp is when others identify you in person
I think these 2 are being confused.

White privilege is extended to people without them having to claim it. It's NOT an advantage that you "take", it's "given" to you w/o asking for it.
You don't have to be white to receive it. You only have to be *whiter* to receive it. The closer you are to Anglo looks- the more privilege you receive.
That's what joyster was saying.
For ex.- you go out in public and are treated better than other people of your same race- simply because your appearance is closer looking to typical Anglo looks, not because you shouted that you were white.
Everyone knows you're not white, but in the spectrum- you are closer to looking white.

As I wrote before on this thread, it's prevalent even in the "white" community. It's why **I suspect** so many of them prize blonde hair/blue eyes.

It's terribly unjust. Terribly embedded in people's minds.
Just Horrible.
But it's real and there's no denying that it's there.
How can it possibly be remedied if not even we (people of color) can openly discuss it w/o getting very defensive?

I don't get angry at my "white" friends for wanting their children to have an easier life by having blonde/blue kids.
Essentially that's what they want.
I feel sorry for the fact that society thinks like this.
My friends, joyster- didn't create this system.
And perhaps, as I said- we can make progress if we can talk about why this privilege exists and how we can change it.

Hope I didn't offend anyone. Just felt it needed to be said.

ETA: if you read some of the history of "white privilege", when a family member was able to live a better life and let those around them believe that they were white, the other family members DIDN'T out them. They let them live better.
It's really sad- how family members were separated from each other in order for some of them to encounter better opportunities.

[Missy]

Originally Posted by LoMaH

I shouldn't post now that I'm rushing, so I hope this comes across right.

There's a difference between affirmative action and "white privilege".
aa is when you self-identify on paper.
wp is when others identify you in person
I think these 2 are being confused.

White privilege is extended to people without them having to claim it. It's NOT an advantage that you "take", it's "given" to you w/o asking for it.
You don't have to be white to receive it. You only have to be *whiter* to receive it. The closer you are to Anglo looks- the more privilege you receive.
That's what joyster was saying.
For ex.- you go out in public and are treated better than other people of your same race- simply because your appearance is closer looking to typical Anglo looks, not because you shouted that you were white.
Everyone knows you're not white, but in the spectrum- you are closer to looking white.

As I wrote before on this thread, it's prevalent even in the "white" community. It's why so many of them prize blonde hair/blue eyes.

It's terribly unjust. Terribly embedded in people's minds.
Just Horrible.
But it's real and there's no denying that it's there.
How can it possibly be remedied if not even we (people of color) can openly discuss it w/o getting very defensive?

I don't get angry at my "white" friends for wanting their children to have an easier life by having blonde/blue kids.
Essentially that's what they want.
I feel sorry for the fact that society thinks like this.
My friends, joyster- didn't create this system.
And perhaps, as I said- we can make progress if we can talk about why this privilege exists and how we can change it.

Hope I didn't offend anyone. Just felt it needed to be said.

Generally speaking, when white parents want a child with blonde hair and blue eyes, it has nothing to do with an easier life and everything to do with their own definition of beauty that, yes, has been created by society. So, yes, I do tend to get, if not angry, at least mildly disgusted at anyone who chooses to perpetuate that definition.

[Viola]

Originally Posted by futurmama8

Umm this is exactly why Affirmative action is in place because of thinking like this. Should you really be teaching your kids to "PASS" as white just so they can benefit from white privilege. This makes me really sad Man America and the world needs to change its thinking.

I don't think of it as teaching them to pass so they benefit, I think of it as teaching them that they already have the privilege, and they should acknowledge it, or at least will probably be called to do so one day.

[MustBeJelly]

Originally Posted by Missy

Generally speaking, when white parents want a child with blonde hair and blue eyes, it has nothing to do with an easier life and everything to do with their own definition of beauty that, yes, has been created by society. So, yes, I do tend to get, if not angry, at least mildly disgusted at anyone who chooses to perpetuate that definition.

:

[Missy]

Oh, and by the way, I'm white, not "white", just like my husband and kids are Black, not "black". Thanks.

[Missy]

Originally Posted by VanessaS

And I figure, if the KKK would be disgusted by their existence than they're not white. My DH's take on that is: why should I let racists make up the rules?

Do you see the contradiction in this statement? You just allowed the KKK (the racists) to define your kids.

[Joyster]

Originally Posted by LoMaH

I shouldn't post now that I'm rushing, so I hope this comes across right.

There's a difference between affirmative action and "white privilege".
aa is when you self-identify on paper.
wp is when others identify you in person
I think these 2 are being confused.

White privilege is extended to people without them having to claim it. It's NOT an advantage that you "take", it's "given" to you w/o asking for it.
You don't have to be white to receive it. You only have to be *whiter* to receive it. The closer you are to Anglo looks- the more privilege you receive.
That's what joyster was saying.
For ex.- you go out in public and are treated better than other people of your same race- simply because your appearance is closer looking to typical Anglo looks, not because you shouted that you were white.
Everyone knows you're not white, but in the spectrum- you are closer to looking white.

As I wrote before on this thread, it's prevalent even in the "white" community. It's why so many of them prize blonde hair/blue eyes.

It's terribly unjust. Terribly embedded in people's minds.
Just Horrible.
But it's real and there's no denying that it's there.
How can it possibly be remedied if not even we (people of color) can openly discuss it w/o getting very defensive?

I don't get angry at my "white" friends for wanting their children to have an easier life by having blonde/blue kids.
Essentially that's what they want.
I feel sorry for the fact that society thinks like this.
My friends, joyster- didn't create this system.
And perhaps, as I said- we can make progress if we can talk about why this privilege exists and how we can change it.

Hope I didn't offend anyone. Just felt it needed to be said.

ETA: if you read some of the history of "white privilege", when a family member was able to live a better life and let those around them believe that they were white, the other family members DIDN'T out them. They let them live better.
It's really sad- how family members were separated from each other in order for some of them to encounter better opportunities.

Oh my goodness. You have no ideal of how relieved to see that someone else understood my posts! Thank you for helping to clarify. :

[LoMaH]

Originally Posted by Missy

Generally speaking, when white parents want a child with blonde hair and blue eyes, it has nothing to do with an easier life and everything to do with their own definition of beauty that, yes, has been created by society. So, yes, I do tend to get, if not angry, at least mildly disgusted at anyone who chooses to perpetuate that definition.

So what do you think can be done to remedy it? How do we change people's minds?

I don't think in daily life, they actually perpetuate that definition. Or else only certain people would be privileged.

People realize that there are other definitions of beauty, look at celebrities, they're not all blonde.
But somehow in people's minds they believe it will be a privilege. I'M Speaking of my 2 friends ONLY- since I've never had discussions about this with anyone else, so I should stress that this pertains to them and not every white person. ( I edited my previous post since I should say **I suspect** it's why it's prized. I really don't know the reason why it's prized.)

One of them dated her dh for years (since hs) and she was physically attracted to him.
The other friend- I feel one of the reasons (not a main reason) she married her husband was because he's blonde/blue. Prior to marrying him/during her pregnancy, she kept talking about this "advantage"(possibly blonde/blue kids) while admitting that he's not attractive.

Trust me, this guy IS NOT beautiful and you can't even notice his eye color. No one gives him a 2nd look (not even her. lol)

But I still don't see a reason to get mad at her?