Charting to Avoid March 2009 Thread - Page 25

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by nichole

I'm 8 dpo and found a lot of ewcm. hhmmm...

Mid-lp estrogen surge. It's cool.

Shannon ~ Can you give me a quick course in TAoNFP? I'd like to know how it's different from FAM. TCOYF seems to say that the only difference between NFP and the FAM taught in that book is that TCOYF allows for the use of a barrier method during the fertile period while NFP requires abstinence. I thought the data and charting and determination of fertile phase and O were the same.

momofmine ~ Normally, you'd start charting on the first day of AF. If you want to start now, you can start recording your temp and cf. Things just may not be very clear for a while.

[MovingMomma]

My temp is up this am & CM is drying up! Please, please, please let this be a real temp shift!!!!

MW: I'll have to get back to you later on the "quick course" in TAoNFP.

[momofmine]

Originally Posted by MovingMomma

My temp is up this am & CM is drying up! Please, please, please let this be a real temp shift!!!!

MW: I'll have to get back to you later on the "quick course" in TAoNFP.

Is TAoNFP a different book? I know about TCOYF, but can you tell me what this one is? Thanks!

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by MovingMomma

My temp is up this am & CM is drying up! Please, please, please let this be a real temp shift!!!!

Fingers crossed! I was just checking out your chart again. Did you realize that the second incident of spotting started 18 days after when it looks like you Oed the first time? And this temp shift is 14 days after that spotting started? I just thought that was interesting.

I'm sure I Oed now and am 6dpo so I've stopped temping. Just waiting for AF now.

[MaryLang]

I only started the temping a little bit ago, but I think I totally caught an ovulation already. So I think since the temps correspond with my CM, I'm going to consider myself safe now. I'm a little apprehensive because I don't have enough temps to figure out a real low temp line (or whatever the correct term is) so I can't be 100%. But this is exactly what has happened pp with all the other kids, so I think I'm safe. I always O about day 17-20 PP, and have a very short luteal phase.

[heather719]

Can I discard all of my AF temps? They were really weird and I replaced the battery in my BBT on Sunday. They seem to be typical for me since I replaced it. But if I O on CD15 (or before) those early temps would mask the temp shift. I usually O around CD15.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by heather719

Can I discard all of my AF temps? They were really weird and I replaced the battery in my BBT on Sunday. They seem to be typical for me since I replaced it. But if I O on CD15 (or before) those early temps would mask the temp shift. I usually O around CD15.

If you don't O until cd15, those early temps shouldn't affect being able to determine your thermal shift at all. You only need take into account the previous 6 temps at any given time. For example, as of right now you only need to consider cd6-11 temps so, already, your cd1-5 temps don't count. You can discard them if you want but there's really no need.

I don't temp during AF if I know I Oed the previous cycle. I think it's safe for me because I O so late. It's nice to have a break from temping, especially with such long cycles.

[ReikiMommy07]

TAoNFP was written specifically for Catholics and, if I remember right, explains the religious significance of using NFP and why the church doesn't allow anything else.

Me, CD 24 here. I stopped counting fertile days at 13 days of fertile CM, but it's been more than that. Of course it has... DH is coming back tomorrow. But I think we're just not gonna givuhdang and DTD anyway. So I may or may not be graduating soon due to PG. Time will tell.

[Marlet]

CD19 here and on my 6th straight day of ewcm. MW I'm looking into hormone testing more and more. This is just dumb!

[MovingMomma]

Originally Posted by ReikiMommy07

TAoNFP was written specifically for Catholics and, if I remember right, explains the religious significance of using NFP and why the church doesn't allow anything else.

Yup. It does do this. momofmine, TAoNFP stands for The Art of Natural Family Planning. It is the CCLI (Couple to Couple League Int.) textbook for NFP (though I understand they have a brand new book that is a bit smaller & a couple of supplemental books for specific situations). CCLI has NFP classes available, either in person or via correspondence course. DH & I are Christian, non-Catholic self taught NFP users. It was easy for us to take what we wanted from TAoNFP & leave the rest, and actually a beneficial exercise to discern where our beliefs differ from theirs and why. It may be more difficult for someone who is not a Christian to read TAoNFP w/out being offended. Depends on how open-minded and how easily offended you are, though! I'll get back to you all after I've had a chance to thoroughly compare the two methods, but yes, MW, that is my understanding also: the main difference between NFP & FAM is that alternative methods of BC are allowable in FAM, but not in NFP (barriers, spermicides, etc.). But, when I got started CTA, I read both books & decided to go with TAoNFP b/c I found it to be more comprehensive and a bit more conservative (from an efficacy standpoint).

OMM & MW: Is it solely the number of days of EWCM that could indicate a hormonal imbalance, or does quantity matter as well?

ReikiMommy07: Now if you get PG, don't go telling people it was method failure!

Heather: Yup, what MW said. Make a note on your chart now, but don't worry about it until you get there!

MaryLang: Oh, be careful! You're right, you really don't don't have enough temps to see a shift, esp. w/one out of 3 being above the CL!

Originally Posted by MarineWife

Did you realize that the second incident of spotting started 18 days after when it looks like you Oed the first time? And this temp shift is 14 days after that spotting started? I just thought that was interesting.

So, what do you think that means? Did I really O w/that odd temp shift? And maybe the breakthrough bleeding was actually an AF? What the heck is the difference between breakthrough bleeding and an anovulatory cycle anyway? Just the amount of bleeding? But it's ok to start a new chart (& new follicular stage/phase I w/standard avoidance rules after an anov. cycle but not w/breakthrough bleeding)? Not that that would have made a difference anyway b/c I went straight into EWCM from the breakthrough bleeding. :

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by MovingMomma

I'll get back to you all after I've had a chance to thoroughly compare the two methods, but yes, MW, that is my understanding also: the main difference between NFP & FAM is that alternative methods of BC are allowable in FAM, but not in NFP (barriers, spermicides, etc.). But, when I got started CTA, I read both books & decided to go with TAoNFP b/c I found it to be more comprehensive and a bit more conservative (from an efficacy standpoint).

This is where I'm confused, then, by your method of determining the CL and thermal shift. Your rules for the thermal shift seem to be different. Where TCOYF says it is usually 0.4 degrees above the previous temp but can be as little as 0.2 degrees, you say you need at least 0.6 degrees above(?). Also, you don't seem to set the CL at 0.1 degree above the highest of the previous 6 temps(?). You do something different?

Originally Posted by MovingMomma

OMM & MW: Is it solely the number of days of EWCM that could indicate a hormonal imbalance, or does quantity matter as well?

I really don't know. The thing with PCOS is that increased estrogen levels without O can cause several distinct patches of fertile cf before either O or anov bleeding. I think maybe it could cause an extended period of ewcf, too, as the body tries to O but doesn't quite get there. Not sure how all of that relates to the amount. Off the top of my head, I've read that amount can go with age. The younger you are, the more you'll have.

Originally Posted by MovingMomma

MaryLang: Oh, be careful! You're right, you really don't don't have enough temps to see a shift, esp. w/one out of 3 being above the CL!

ITA! Not enough temps to definitively confirm O.

Originally Posted by MovingMomma

So, what do you think that means? Did I really O w/that odd temp shift? And maybe the breakthrough bleeding was actually an AF? What the heck is the difference between breakthrough bleeding and an anovulatory cycle anyway? Just the amount of bleeding? But it's ok to start a new chart (& new follicular stage/phase I w/standard avoidance rules after an anov. cycle but not w/breakthrough bleeding)? Not that that would have made a difference anyway b/c I went straight into EWCM from the breakthrough bleeding. :

I don't really know. I just found it interesting. The first thing I thought when your lp was dragging on but you were getting - hpts was that you could've had a functional cyst. I had one once that caused my lp to be exactly 18 days long before it resolved itself. I can't remember how heavy or light AF was after it, though.

Breakthrough bleeding and bleeding after an anov cycle are essentially the same. According to TCOYF, there are two types of anov bleeding, estrogen withdrawal bleeding that occurs after estrogen peaks and then drops off quickly without O, and estrogen breakthrough bleeding that occurs when the uterine lining gets too thick to sustain itself without O. You consider day 1 of the bleeding as day 1 of the next cycle except that the First 5 Days rule does not apply. You are not safe the first 5 days of the cycle. That refers to bleeding, though, not just spotting. If you never had flow, you should consider it part of the same cycle. Your thermal shift just seems so clear and I can't find anything that says you can have a thermal shift without O. The only things that I can think of are inaccurate temping or medication (happened to me once) or possibly being sick.

[twilight girl]

Here again ... I don´t know what to make of my chart and my symptoms! Symptothermal has FF convinced that I O'd on CD11, solid crosshairs. Ovusoft is not willing to commit.

And, then I had a tightness in my lower abdomen last night that I would normally equate with AF on the way, and today some pretty sharp "O" pains on the left side.

I don't get this at all There has been a temp shift for sure ... days ago! Would the tightness and "O" pain possibly be because I have a corpus luteum cyst this cycle? Otherwise I'm super confused. And it's not like there is any possibility of PG, because we simply haven't had time to DTD!! Not until last night, but we used withdrawal, because I just felt like something fishy was going on!!

Weirdness!! (thanks for letting me expresssssssssssssssss)

[ReikiMommy07]

Originally Posted by MovingMomma

ReikiMommy07: Now if you get PG, don't go telling people it was method failure!

No way, I wouldn't tell people that. If I get PG, it will be knowing I could have, and DH knows too. Knowing the rules and ignoring them, and method failure don't belong in the same sentence

[BarefootScientist]

Originally Posted by Teenytoona

we had a discussion about that a few pages back. one other poster (was it Barefoot Scientist) and I have it happen to us too. I think I read (on the FF website?) its related to excess estrogen. I dont have EWCM at O time, but have that pseudoEwcm in the week before AF... wierd wierd :

Yeah that was me. Not always but occasionally I have egg-whitish stuff sometime in the middle of the LP.

I had ordered a cheap copy of TaoNFP and it should be here soon. I am fascinated by this stuff...but don't worry, I am not easily offended. Also I am Christian, although not Catholic. Maybe after I read it I can also offer some thoughts on how it is different from TCOYF.

[MovingMomma]

Originally Posted by MarineWife

This is where I'm confused, then, by your method of determining the CL and thermal shift. Your rules for the thermal shift seem to be different. Where TCOYF says it is usually 0.4 degrees above the previous temp but can be as little as 0.2 degrees, you say you need at least 0.6 degrees above(?). Also, you don't seem to set the CL at 0.1 degree above the highest of the previous 6 temps(?). You do something different?

I don't really know. I just found it interesting. The first thing I thought when your lp was dragging on but you were getting - hpts was that you could've had a functional cyst. I had one once that caused my lp to be exactly 18 days long before it resolved itself. I can't remember how heavy or light AF was after it, though.

You consider day 1 of the bleeding as day 1 of the next cycle except that the First 5 Days rule does not apply. You are not safe the first 5 days of the cycle. That refers to bleeding, though, not just spotting. If you never had flow, you should consider it part of the same cycle. Your thermal shift just seems so clear and I can't find anything that says you can have a thermal shift without O. The only things that I can think of are inaccurate temping or medication (happened to me once) or possibly being sick.

I'm quoting way too much here.

RE NFP thermal shift: Hmm...I must not be communicating clearly. NFP also looks for a 4/10ths degree thermal shift. 2/10ths is rarely ok--only if you have a pattern of having shifts of lesser amounts.

RE NFP coverline: NFP does not do a coverline. NFP draws two lines: One at the low temp level, which is on the highest of the low temps (on my chart, this is at 97.4). The second line is at the high temp level, which is 4/10ths above the low temp level (on my chart this is at 97.8). The high temps should be on or above the second line.

I think it's just a different way of visualizing the shift, and I think the NFP method emphasizes the 4/10ths, while FAM emphasizes the 2/10ths (at least visually).

I'm thinking that I must not have ovulated with the first shift. It must have been artificially high b/c of an illness that I didn't even notice or something??? The rest of my family had been sick just before that, and I rarely get sick, so this is a possibility. Maybe I got it and that was my only symptom.

Ok, so there really isn't a difference between an anov. cycle and shedding. Except you start a new chart is there's flow. But you're still potentially fertile either way. I had very, very light spotting during that whole stretch. Definitely no flow. I didn't necessarily even need a pantyliner; most of it went on the toilet paper.

[MarineWife]

Originally Posted by MovingMomma

RE NFP coverline: NFP does not do a coverline. NFP draws two lines: One at the low temp level, which is on the highest of the low temps (on my chart, this is at 97.4). The second line is at the high temp level, which is 4/10ths above the low temp level (on my chart this is at 97.8). The high temps should be on or above the second line.

How do you determine the highest of the low temp levels?

[MovingMomma]

Originally Posted by MarineWife

How do you determine the highest of the low temp levels?

As far as I can tell so far, the same way FAM does, except the FAM line goes above the temps and the NFP line goes on the temps. With NFP we shave instead of ROT, but it accomplishes the same thing, and I think the rules are the same for both.

One difference that I think exists here is that in NFP I don't think you can shave a temp that is at or above the high temp level (this would be 3/10ths above coverline), but I think you can in FAM. The way TAoNFP explains this is "the standard procedure for determining the start of phase III involves 3 steps: 1) you have 3 normal temps above the previous 6 temps." There are no examples in the book of shaving temps that are at or above the high temp level. This would mean you can't set a LTL or HTL yet on your chart, unless you decided those 3 wacky temps were due to thermometer dysfunction and should actually be thrown out. Personally, I think this may be too conservative. But it's also an example of NFP being more conservative than FAM.

Isn't there an NFP instructor or two on here? After all, I am an NFP autodidact.

[MarineWife]

I think I've got you, Shannon. Basically, where I might put a CL at 97.5, being 0.1 degrees above the highest of the previous 6 temps, you would put the CL at 97.4, being at the highest of the previous 6 temps. Then a thermal shift might be indicated if the next temp is at least 97.8, 0.4 degrees above 97.4.

I'm a bit slow but I did get around to starting the new thread. Here's the link.

April 2009 Thread

[MovingMomma]

Yup, that sounds like the basics!