Carren, I wanted to re-gather some of the supp info that's earlier in the thread and add a bit info, I did some re-reading in Cutler's books. Back in March, I did not fully realize just how frickin high your copper is, and I think Panserbjorne didn't notice just how far above the reference range you are either.
As an example, the "elevated copper" examples from Cutler's Hair Test Interp book are results of 93 and 140, and the 140 is "vast elevation of copper" and "well into the toxic region"... and you're above that.
Cutler says the half-life of copper in the body is about a month, so I think you can decrease your level by half in a month (which still puts you well into the toxic region and feeling like crap), and then half again in another month, and continue like that. You're pretty darn high, so I'd expect you're going to need
at least 3 months to start feeling better. Folks on the yahoo list were starting to feel better by 2-3 months, but I think the lead will make things slower for you.
Given your really, really high level of copper, I think you're going to have to decide on a set of supps and decide to take them for 4-6 months knowing you won't feel better til near the end of that time period. I'd say after you've been taking everything for 3 months, retest your hair to see if the copper is coming down, but don't expect it to be in-range yet, and thus you'll probably still feel crappy. If it's not coming down, then stop and work on a new plan, but if it is coming down, keep doing all that stuff even though you don't feel better yet. With the very high level of lead you've got, improvement seems like it'll be slow.
Here's a sorta short summary of the stuff Cutler and Panserbjorne suggest. For simplicity, I checked to see if Thorne makes most of this stuff, since it's a brand I know and trust. I buy from totalhealthvitamins.net, seems like the best prices on Thorne, that I've seen anyway.. Feel free to get something else!
--zinc (I'd use Thorne zinc picolinate, 15mg 2x/day, that's within Panserbjorne's recommended dosage range too)
--molybdenum 3x/day with meals (get a 500mcg or 1mg supp, Thorne has a 1mg molybdenum picolinate supp)
--taurine (Cutler doesn't give a dosage, I'd probably order Thorne's and take 2 grams with each meal--guesstimate dosage from
http://george-eby-research.com/html/...y.html#taurine)
--milk thistle (at this point I'd just order seeds from Mountain Rose Herbs, measure out a rounded tablespoon and mix in a coffee grinder, and drink that much 3x/day--I mix mine in orange juice)
--Cutler rec's glycine, I vote no--my HCP is sending me glycine to stimulate some detox pathway, so I'd skip it
--phosphatidylcholine (Thorne makes one but it has soy--I'd just use a brand that doesn't contain an allergen and follow the dosage on the bottle)
--bowel tolerance vitC 3x/day
--NAC (Thorne makes one, they call it CystePlus, it's only NAC and they say 1 capsule 3x/day with meals)
--selenium (Thorne makes a selenium picolinate, 200mcg, 1/day seems plenty)
Other stuff...
--do you like/hate/other the Perque2 Life Guard multi? It would work for Bs and misc stuff if you are ok with it.
--modifilan--you didn't mention it, I assume it didn't make you feel better? I'm going to vote, fwiw, that you take it anyway. My HCP says it's protective for breastmilk and I've seen that it's helpful for metals--slow help for the lead, maybe for the copper too, but if you can swing it for 6-9 months, I'd do it (yeah, a long time, but healing from toxicity from 2 metals is gonna be slow)
--vitamin C flushes (
http://www.perque.com/pdfs/Pt_Ascorbate_Slush_FIN.pdf) -- pluses, good for adrenals, good for reducing toxic load quickly, minuses--not fun, 1x/wk is maximum frequency
--whatever cal & mag supps you're doing now
I felt like we were talking off-and-on in the Chat thread and we should be doing it here, and I figure you feel like death warmed over, so that's why I put this over here. Didn't mean to be pushy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TanyaLopez
Okay, back to Cutler...
He says people with mixed copper plus another metal toxicity respond fastest by addressing the copper first instead of the other metal.
Now, he recommends: zinc with each meal and 1-3mg of molybdenum per day (for adults) and nutritional supps to promote bile flow like taurine, glycine, milk thistle and phosphatidylcholine, all with meals (I don't know if all of those are nursing compatible).
High Cu levels suggest possibility of gall bladder or biliary tract disease which should be explored.
A tendency to have high copper can run in families, it's good to check.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnambula
Oh, WOW. You have some serious lead. The first three dont' suprise me given your experience with foods, they can serious screw with detox pathways. In fact the first three, lead and mercury all use primarily the same pathway.
I would also seriously focus on liver support. Vitamin C will likely be quite helpful for you, but I wouldn't skimp on selenium either. N-acetyl cysteine will be a good idea along with the vitamin C. Milk thistle would help too.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TanyaLopez
I know this was addressed to sonnambula, but I figured I'd add some and she can add/revise as needed. FTR, I interpreted "mitigate further damage" to mean reduce absorption if there's a current exposure, and maybe help the balance a bit.
from before... dietary calcium levels strongly influence lead absorption (more calcium, less lead absorbed). Ca supps (not carbonate or hydroxyapatite) are effective at reducing lead absorption. These reduce lead absorption: mag, zinc, iron but vitsD and copper increase it. vitC and E decrease the toxic effects of lead, fluoride increases the toxic effects.
I'd get cal and mag supps (I use a multi-mineral combo sometimes with some extra separate mag, but separate would work, sonnambula prefers that), and I'd give you and the kids bowel tolerance vitC 3x/day (which should help a bit with your copper as well).
Zinc's on the list for lead as well as copper, but I don't know how high you can/should supp. And I just looked it up, Cutler doesn't have a suggestion in his book. I'd think 15 or 30mg wouldn't be too high, given that it helps with both the lead and the copper (at least a bit--I don't think it's going to solve the problem at this level). Your son's hair zinc was low, but I don't have a good reference point for how much zinc to give him (I give my kids fairly high amounts, so I don't know where the middle ground is). 10mg? I'm just putting a guess there so sonnambula can correct me.  Your son could use extra mag, too, that's easier to play with. My kids get capsules with 110mg, I give my daughter 2, I'm thinking she's still really low and I'm considering 3.
FYI, supp zinc separate from calcium, maybe zinc at breakfast and lunch and cal at dinner? And mag at bedtime? Just a suggestion, in order to maximize absorption.
Have any of you had your iron, esp your ferritin, checked lately? Probably good to know this one before supp-ing iron.
Hey, another gem from Cutler: low adrenal function causes copper accumulation. I wonder if getting the copper out will help your adrenals heal? Maybe the unknown (plus the lead, which seems like quite the stress on your body too) that, once addressed, will allow your adrenals to start healing? |
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonnambula
You got good suggestions. I would also add (or maybe it was said and I missed it) liver support.
In terms of the zinc I can't tell you what to do, but I would be doing between 30 and 40 mg a day. For kids without guidance I wouldn't go more than 10mg. I agree with the calcium and magnesium supplementation.
I know that high levels of copper change how you metabolize (you move pretty quickly from a fast oxidizer to a slow oxidizer which also changes the way you utilize nutrients. High copper also changes neurotransmitters pretty significantly (high dopamine, norepinephrine etc.)
This can be seen in the hair results. Oops...gotta run, I'm late! I'll be back.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chlobo
Ok. I ordered the book. I went back and reviewed this thread and the detox gone awry thread and this is what I have come up with for my "interim" plan:
For me, I should take:
Vit C - bowel tolerance
Calcium (not carbonate or hydroxyapatite) - can I use Cal/mag supp
Mag - natural calm at bed
zinc - 30-40mg (gammadyne won't work so what to use)
Vit E
Molybedenum - 1-3mg/day
Milk thistle - liquid? Ground seeds?
Selenium - is 2 brazil nuts enough?
N-acetyl cysteine
Phosphatidylcholine
taurine
glycine
Adrenal supp
***What about folate, b12, betaine, pantothenic acid, biotin, vit d, riboflavin, chlorophyl, clay????
For the kids:
Vit C - bowel tolerance over 3x/day
Zinc - 10mg
Mg - 110mg
Can anyone help with how much I should be taking?
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: thanks for that puzzle piece though!
I'm sorry you're feeling worse. Did I write out the part about copper messing with all sorts of neurotransmitters and chemicals in peoples' brains? It's not a shocker that you feel horrible, small comfort, I know, but with as much copper as you've got, it's possible you'll feel noticeably better in 4-6 months. I mean--this is a ton of pills to pop for 100+ days without the expectation of feeling better yet (maybe you will, but I wouldn't stop at that point, just do another hair test around the 3-month mark), but this works for people, and your level is higher than most.
