*Update* My health memoirs, please help edit for happy ending: - Page 2

[chlobo]

That's so weird about the amalgams. I don't have any cavities. never have. Can he inherit that stuff from his father? He had lots of mercury fillings which he had replaced unsafely a while back.

[tanyalynn]

I don't think he can, so the tin and silver don't seem amalgam related, do they? And cool on never having any cavities! I'm hoping my kids can do that (since I clearly haven't).

I got a quick break from dinner, while I was thinking about you the entire time.

My vote for a plan of action:
--get blood tests for you and your son, maybe your daughter too, to see if the lead is due to current exposure or past (share the test results with your doc if you think they'd be open, otherwise the kid of the lady 3 houses down just got really high lead results and they don't know where it came from, and with your digestive issues, now you're really concerned, yadda yadda yadda)
--learn about lead, after the kids go to bed I can share everything from Cutler's book, I think the nutritional things are high doses of vitamin C and lots of calcium to let your body replace the lead with calcium
--I'm sure there's more lead stuff to know, but I'd start there. I'll share the symptoms of lead toxicity too, so you can see how well what you're dealing with fits

And I'll go through for the minerals with the assumption that mercury's not an issue.

[chlobo]

-get blood tests for you and your son, maybe your daughter too, to see if the lead is due to current exposure or past

Is this the usual lead test that the doctor does or is it something special? Would a regular doc order it or would I need to see an alternative doc?

Both kids got lead tests that were normal in the last 6 or so months from the ped. Would this test be different from that one?

[KimPM]

RE: super low vitamin D levels...what did you supplement with? I used D2 for the longest time with no effect. When I tried fish-based D (with A) and added vitamin B5 at the same time it really helped.

As another option, you can instead try transdermal vitamin D - just get one of the liquid forms and put a drop on your skin. You only need a small amount that way, since 500 IU transdermally is equivalent to something like 2000 IU orally. And you don't have to worry about how much you absorb thru the GI tract. Transdermal application takes effect quickly, I can really feel it when I do it that way.

[chlobo]

Originally Posted by KimPM

RE: super low vitamin D levels...what did you supplement with? I used D2 for the longest time with no effect. When I tried fish-based D (with A) and added vitamin B5 at the same time it really helped.

As another option, you can instead try transdermal vitamin D - just get one of the liquid forms and put a drop on your skin. You only need a small amount that way, since 500 IU transdermally is equivalent to something like 2000 IU orally. And you don't have to worry about how much you absorb thru the GI tract. Transdermal application takes effect quickly, I can really feel it when I do it that way.

Well I had been doing CLO but haven't been good about it lately. So I've been doing liquid D3 orally. Maybe I'll try some transdermally. I'm also going to start up the CLO again.

[tanyalynn]

Lead stuff from Cutler's HTI book... I'm typing way more than probably applies, but I want to include it so you can see how much fits your situation.

High hair lead is a problem. in adults, may cause nerve damage (muscles to hands, fingers and arms), not in kids. dietary calcium levels strongly influence lead absorption (more calcium, less lead absorbed). Ca supps (not carbonate or hydroxyapatite) are effective at reducing lead absorption. These reduce lead absorption: mag, zinc, iron but vitsD and copper increase it. vitC and E decrease the toxic effects of lead, fluoride increases the toxic effects. lead is stored in bones and comes out only slowly, so long-term treatment is needed.

mildly toxic adults will show: irritability, depression, fatigue, abdominal discomforrt, poor sleep or reduced libido.

mildly toxic adults will have relatively few health complaints but significant neurological issues like reduced intelligence, learning disabilities, developmental disorders like adhd, autism or pervasive developmental disorder. children often have headaches, stomachaches and constipation early on in exposure.

at higher levels of exposure, kids can have delirium, clumsiness, seizures, stupor or coma.

the classic picture of an adult with long-standing lead problems is someone who's somewhat overweight, tanned with a dumb look on their face, modestly attention deficit and a lot of abdominal cramping and digestive disturbances who likes to get up early in the morning, can't stay up late and who may have lazy eye or a history of rough or violent behavior.

lead causes neurotransmitter imbalances, lots of problems with brain function. can cause impairment of long-term memory (vs short term for mercury), and problems with abstract thinking. eye-hand coordination is impaired, reaction time slowed. becomes progressively worse as lead levels rise.

can cause mood disorders, apathy, depression, fatigue, confusion, irritability, sleep disturbances, difficulty controlling anger.

can cause subtle hearing loss and subtle vision problems that are brain rather than eye related. can cause dizziness and poor balance. and can cause high blood pressure.

high levels of lead cause anemia, it involves reduced MCV and MCH (I don't know what that means, but if you have old bloodwork, maybe it'll be on there).

acute and chronic lead are associated with constipation usually, but sometimes diarrhea instead.

lead impairs regulation of thyroid and adrenal function by the hypothalamus and pituitary, leading to reduced levels of both thyroid hormone and cortisol, enough to be miserable even if you're in the normal range. TSH is a bad marker in this case because the problem is elsewhere, and lead may reduce conversion of T4 to T3.

can lead to difficulty conceiving and increased rate of miscarriages.

Lead is an element where yellow range results may well correspond to significant cognitive or health impairment and red range results are quite likely to.

I vote you've got your problem identified!

What you do next is trickier. DMSA is Cutler's choice of chelator for lead, but apparently it's becoming harder to get (and you couldn't take it while nursing anyway). I don't know if sonnambula would have more ideas on lead, what I've typed above is most of what I know (and I only know it cause I typed as I read the book).

[tanyalynn]

re: the rest of your results (stuff that's high or low)...

mom:
aluminum: accurate for body burden (mostly can be reduced by reducing exposure, I need to find a better link than my previous one with lists of sources)
beryllium: hair results in yellow or red means exposure should be identified and ended if not essential for employment; if you have sarcoidosis or related autoimmunity and yellow/red hair beryllium, it's likely the Be, removal from source is the best approach
lead: already discussed
uranium: not high enough to worry about til it's well into the red

sodium: not indicative of intake or body stores
copper: whoa! I totally missed this at first , holy sh!t, copper toxicity is very similar in symptoms to mercury--you feel like death warmed over, don't you? I will look up more on this in a minute...
zinc: mentioning since copper looks like an issue, and hey, you are probably okay on zinc (quite high or low usually means take more, but you're in the green)

Beryllium sources: specialized aerospace, semiconductor and nuclear apps; cutting or grinding the gemstone beryl can cause problems, just having a beryl stone will not; most likely exposure is the few percent of beryllium added to many copper alloys used for electrical purposes (wow, that's all very vague, isn't it?)

Not sure what to do about the copper given that you wouldn't want to go really high with zinc supps, vitC helps with copper though. I'll look up more. For now, I'd cut out food sources high in copper, nuts, liver. Pumpkin seeds aren't high in copper, probably other nut/seed-like things too.

eta--in the longer copper section, he talks about bile being the main way copper is excreted, so liver issues really can cause buildup of copper, so that's why the liver support is helpful. i think liver panels (bloodwork, i mean) is pretty slow to show real liver problems, but it may be helpful if you haven't done it in the past couple years.

[tanyalynn]

You know, maybe you should look into what your pipes are made of. With things like tin and silver being a bit high-ish in your son, and copper WAY high for you, I wonder if there's some solder somewhere that could be causing problems. May be worth testing your water.

Okay, back to Cutler...

He says people with mixed copper plus another metal toxicity respond fastest by addressing the copper first instead of the other metal.

Now, he recommends: zinc with each meal and 1-3mg of molybdenum per day (for adults) and nutritional supps to promote bile flow like taurine, glycine, milk thistle and phosphatidylcholine, all with meals (I don't know if all of those are nursing compatible). But with such normal zinc, I don't know if that approach is good.

High Cu levels suggest possibility of gall bladder or biliary tract disease which should be explored.

A tendency to have high copper can run in families, it's good to check.

[tanyalynn]

your son...

In general, a couple things into the yellow (except lead) are probably not worrisome. I wouldn't worry about most of these (I just listed them cause they were in the yellow and thought you may be interested) but maybe the antimony, to think about possible exposures. And the silver or tin for problem-solving, if related to the copper.

aluminum: ditto earlier
antimony: hair is a good measure, kids pajamas use it as a flame-retardant, there are other sources too but that's a biggie typically
arsenic: hair is a good measure
lead: already discussed
silver: hair is a good measure,
tin: hair is a good measure

--magnesium: usually moves opposite to body stores, so that suggests plenty of mag
--zinc: low hair zinc correlates well with low red blood cell zinc and low total body zinc
--lithium: accurate, varies a lot geographically, it's calming and mood stabilizing and can be supplemented at low levels (vs high doses sometimes given to people with bipolar) but I'd want to know a lot more before doing it with a kid
--strontium: accurate, low levels correlate with tooth decay, soft bones and heart disease, supplemental strontium in modest quantities is known to improve bone density and strength, generally low toxicity but kids are more susceptible than adults and low dietary calcium means strontium has more potential to be toxic

That's probably more than you wanted, given the copper and lead results, but it's interesting for me to learn.

So, whaddya think? Does it seem like the lead and copper answers are fitting your view of the problem?

[chlobo]

Wow Tanya. Thanks. That's a lot to digest.

I grew up in a 200 year old house. I'm sure it had pipe issues. Plus I was on municipal water so I'm sure that didn't help.

IN our current house we also have copper pipes with lead solder. My DH reminded me last night that we have a slight PH problem with our water making it acidic. So that would likely promote destruction of the solder & perhaps copper. We have an RO filter now that gets rid of that stuff and if we run the water for a while it isn't a problem but I've drank plenty of water that's sat around in the pipes collecting crap.

I'd love to hear what FF/PB/S has to say about fixing hte problem.

ETA: Hey, maybe the lead issues are what keep me from retaining this information. And I've *always* had a horrible long term memory. So maybe this all started in childhood.

[momofmine]

HOW do you check your pipes and know this? I think this could be an issue for us too, 100 year old house. We just got an Aquasana whole house filter last year, would that filter out the metals? I think I'd still like to have the water tested, because I know the pipes are old. If we can replace some of the pipes, what do they replace them with? Plastic? Is that any better? Aack, so many things to figure out to try to avoid chemicals/metals in our environment today. Gosh, I just want to go back to living outside and getting my water straight from the spring!

Related to water filters, I keep asking this in different places, but do either of you know if the Flair air filters are safe? We have one, and it seems to really help, especially because we have issues of a damp, dirt basement (moldy/musty smell), and when we keep it on, we get sick less. But, some people say those kind of air filters aren't good for you, because they produce ozone. BUT the people who make the Flair say they are fine, and that it is a low amount, like being outside.

[chlobo]

Originally Posted by momofmine

HOW do you check your pipes and know this? I think this could be an issue for us too, 100 year old house. We just got an Aquasana whole house filter last year, would that filter out the metals? I think I'd still like to have the water tested, because I know the pipes are old. If we can replace some of the pipes, what do they replace them with? Plastic? Is that any better? Aack, so many things to figure out to try to avoid chemicals/metals in our environment today. Gosh, I just want to go back to living outside and getting my water straight from the spring!

Related to water filters, I keep asking this in different places, but do either of you know if the Flair air filters are safe? We have one, and it seems to really help, especially because we have issues of a damp, dirt basement (moldy/musty smell), and when we keep it on, we get sick less. But, some people say those kind of air filters aren't good for you, because they produce ozone. BUT the people who make the Flair say they are fine, and that it is a low amount, like being outside.

I'm just speculating about the house I grew up in. Old pipes have to be trouble. They just didn't know a lot back then. Who knows what their standards were.

You can tell if they are copper by looking at them. They are copper colored. My DH told me about the solder (sp?) being lead. We have well water so we have our water tested regularly. So we know that the water, after its run a while, doesn't have heavy metals (according to the tests). DH said the reverse osmosis filter gets the metals. I don't know that for sure. I'm just taking his word for that one. Not sure what you would replace them with. I'm not sure plastic would be good either.

I have no idea about the air filters. We run 2 and I'm choosing not to worry about that right now.

[kjbrown92]

We have copper pipes (built 1993), and hard water. And I had super high copper on my hair toxic elements test. I haven't had the water tested though. If you're washing your hair in the water, how do you know how much of the copper is built up in your body vs. how much your hair just absorbs from the water -- know what I mean? I'm the only one who drinks water all day. Everybody else drinks other things, or is out of the house half the day. We have well water. I should get it tested. We have a sediment filter on it but that's it. It "tastes" really good. During the summer, our lake water is highly filtered (those are copper pipes as well). And I was surprised that I didn't have a lead issue, growing up there during the summers with lead paint everywhere (it's been painted over everywhere for the kids' rooms).

[chlobo]

Originally Posted by kjbrown92

We have copper pipes (built 1993), and hard water. And I had super high copper on my hair toxic elements test. I haven't had the water tested though. If you're washing your hair in the water, how do you know how much of the copper is built up in your body vs. how much your hair just absorbs from the water -- know what I mean?

I hadn't thought of this but my husband says that once the water runs for a while all the leached copper goes out of the pipes until more water sits in it and more copper leaches out. Since we always run the water before showering (poor water heat) I just assumed it was from drinking. When we have tested the well water after it has been running for a while the copper levels are normal and not high at all. That's why I thought DHs story made sense.

I'm the only one who drinks water all day. Everybody else drinks other things, or is out of the house half the day. We have well water. I should get it tested. We have a sediment filter on it but that's it. It "tastes" really good. During the summer, our lake water is highly filtered (those are copper pipes as well). And I was surprised that I didn't have a lead issue, growing up there during the summers with lead paint everywhere (it's been painted over everywhere for the kids' rooms).

So has anyone reviewed your hair tests? Did they comment on the copper? How is your lead?

[sonnambula]

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez

I'll say up-front that since I had a lot of similar stuff (minus the digestive issues), I have a bias in what approach I prefer. I think since mom is already gfcf and probably eats a lot better than most people out there, if she feels this bad, a lot more support is needed--the problem is more significant than just food can address (like I said, I have a bias).

Agreed.

First--when did you do the hair test for you and your son? How old was he, were the tests at the same time? Were the tests the Hair Elements tests, or the Toxic Hair Profile, or one of each (re-reading, it looks like the Hair Elements, right?)? Your lead is really high, and 2.2 seems like it could be pretty darn high for your son as well (easier to see with a pic). But it's multiple toxic metals into the red for both of you. Sonnambula would be really good about linking an underlying reason (beyond exposure, though I think everyone gets poisoned by lead if there's enough around, so I think that's different than the amalgam situation) to it, but for me, addressing the metals was important. I want to look at the essential elements and see how they look--my daughter's failed Andy's counting rules nicely, which was a nice clue that there were other metals (maybe just mercury if I'm lucky) that weren't showing up yet, but were still an issue.
Environmental issues are key here. With lead I think you DO want to assess your environment, house, plates, silverware, etc. I would actually call and see if you can get testing for your house based on these results. If lead is found then you may be eligible for remediation grants. Yes, I think that looking at underlying reasons is important, but this *could* be as simple as too much in your life as opposed to detox issues.

Small things that helped me: melatonin to fall asleep, high-protein snack (something substantial, not as big as dinner though) right before bed (to prevent blood sugar issues in the middle of the night), mid-morning and mid-afternoon snacks containing protein.

This may sound strange, but I think you should jump to head of the line, priority-wise.
ABSOLUTELY. This is rarely NOT true. Even if kids are in dire straits mama still needs fixin'. There are times when I think kiddos can be addressed first (and yours is actually one where I wouldnt' argue that) but I think for actual results as opposed to simply arresting a snowballing situation you both need treatment-but you know that.

I had to prioritize us, I couldn't work on everyone at once, my brain couldn't handle it, and I decided I had to be first. I think you may be in a similar situation. You heard back from your homeopath, I'd try the lower dose, more frequently approach with your son,
A good idea IMHO when metals are present.

but I'd make an appointment for you next. I've seen real improvements in the kids since I started feeling better. A friend just recently pointed out that my son was friendlier and more comfortable with her than ever before, and I realized that there were other situations (not just her) where that was the case. I just missed it, but it's changed since my outlook has improved and my stress level has gone down.

Indeed. I'm glad you have seen changes, Chlobo you'll get there too. I'm still missing information, but I'm trying to piece things together. Off to read more.

[sonnambula]

Oh, WOW. You have some serious lead. The first three dont' suprise me given your experience with foods, they can serious screw with detox pathways. In fact the first three, lead and mercury all use primarily the same pathway.

In terms of chelating, I vote for isopathy. Plumbum in low doses, pretty frequently, but you'd want to be under someone's care. I would also use a protocol similar to mine, though lead wasn't a biggie for us. Still it's about moving metals once they are in the bloodstream OUT so they dont' continue to recirculate.

I would also seriously focus on liver support. Vitamin C will likely be quite helpful for you, but I wouldn't skimp on selenium either. N-acetyl cysteine will be a good idea along with the vitamin C. Milk thistle would help too.

STOP drinking the water in your house for now, reduce the burden. Stop cooking with it too. At least that's what I would do.

Enviroment with these two specifically are kinda important. You have heard me say before that there is an individual susceptibility and it's not just about the environment. Based on your test results that isnt' what we are seeing here or your ds's load would be worse than yours IMO. There is something in your environment that needs to be addressed while your body is supported. Homeopathy will be amazing, but can't compete with daily exposure to those levels of toxins. Yes, you will manage them better during treatment, but that's not a reason to not address them.

[chlobo]

Originally Posted by sonnambula

Oh, WOW. You have some serious lead. The first three dont' suprise me given your experience with foods, they can serious screw with detox pathways. In fact the first three, lead and mercury all use primarily the same pathway.

Is it possible that it's old lead and not new lead? Is there a way to tell? Also, if its this high in the hair would it show up in the blood? Both kids had negative finds on the blood test for lead

In terms of chelating, I vote for isopathy. Plumbum in low doses, pretty frequently, but you'd want to be under someone's care. I would also use a protocol similar to mine, though lead wasn't a biggie for us. Still it's about moving metals once they are in the bloodstream OUT so they dont' continue to recirculate.

What kind of practitioner does isopathy? Also, what is your protocol? Don't worry, I'm not going to run out and do it by myself.

I would also seriously focus on liver support. Vitamin C will likely be quite helpful for you, but I wouldn't skimp on selenium either. N-acetyl cysteine will be a good idea along with the vitamin C. Milk thistle would help too.

STOP drinking the water in your house for now, reduce the burden. Stop cooking with it too. At least that's what I would do.

Well, from what my husband says, as long as we use the filtered water there isn't an issue. I wasn't drinking the filtered water before because the filter was broken. I am now.

Enviroment with these two specifically are kinda important. You have heard me say before that there is an individual susceptibility and it's not just about the environment. Based on your test results that isnt' what we are seeing here or your ds's load would be worse than yours IMO. There is something in your environment that needs to be addressed while your body is supported. Homeopathy will be amazing, but can't compete with daily exposure to those levels of toxins. Yes, you will manage them better during treatment, but that's not a reason to not address them.

Are there people who can come in and test our environment to figure out where the lead is coming from? We just had an extensive water quality test done and there was no or very low lead present. There was also low copper. What does that mean?

Huh. So you think this is mostly a recent exposure issue? I've kind of always had these problems at lower levels. They've just increased since having kids. What kind of person do I call to check this out for us? Is it possible the lead could be high b/c of washing hair with water that might have lead?

[tanyalynn]

Originally Posted by sonnambula

Oh, WOW. You have some serious lead. The first three dont' suprise me given your experience with foods, they can serious screw with detox pathways. In fact the first three, lead and mercury all use primarily the same pathway.

In terms of chelating, I vote for isopathy. Plumbum in low doses, pretty frequently, but you'd want to be under someone's care. I would also use a protocol similar to mine, though lead wasn't a biggie for us. Still it's about moving metals once they are in the bloodstream OUT so they dont' continue to recirculate.

I would also seriously focus on liver support. Vitamin C will likely be quite helpful for you, but I wouldn't skimp on selenium either. N-acetyl cysteine will be a good idea along with the vitamin C. Milk thistle would help too.

STOP drinking the water in your house for now, reduce the burden. Stop cooking with it too. At least that's what I would do.

Enviroment with these two specifically are kinda important. You have heard me say before that there is an individual susceptibility and it's not just about the environment. Based on your test results that isnt' what we are seeing here or your ds's load would be worse than yours IMO. There is something in your environment that needs to be addressed while your body is supported. Homeopathy will be amazing, but can't compete with daily exposure to those levels of toxins. Yes, you will manage them better during treatment, but that's not a reason to not address them.

Chlobo, you said your kids' blood tests for lead, 6 months ago, were normal, right? Maybe double-check that normal is truly low, but ....

Sonnambula, these hair results aren't consistent with current exposure that yields normal blood test results, are they? Or are there accuracy/repeatability issues I don't know about?

And the copper (Chlobo's, I mean)--Cutler says treating copper first makes people feel better faster... ah, that's what the liver support is for, right? Or am I missing something? And to clarify... how much can be done for the lead for Chlobo now, given that she's nursing? I haven't a clue how isopathy works (and I'd bet ideas on how to find a homeopath who does isopathy would be helpful, I know I'd be lost), but would isopathy just help with clearance of circulating lead, or would it mobilize extra, and how does that play into the NAC etc that you mentioned?

And thanks for coming over!

[chlobo]

Originally Posted by TanyaLopez

Chlobo, you said your kids' blood tests for lead, 6 months ago, were normal, right? Maybe double-check that normal is truly low, but ....

Ok. Isabella's last test was Nov 07 & her level was 2 ug/dl (RR 0-5.0). Adam's test was August 08. His level was 2 ug/dl (RR 0-5.0). So waht does this all mean? Is 2 really high? Could it produce high hair results?

Sonnambula, these hair results aren't consistent with current exposure that yields normal blood test results, are they? Or are there accuracy/repeatability issues I don't know about?

Could washing hair in the leady water cause a problem with the test? Is there a "confirmatory" test we can take? I just looked at Isabella's hair test results and hers were high as well.

And the copper (Chlobo's, I mean)--Cutler says treating copper first makes people feel better faster... ah, that's what the liver support is for, right? Or am I missing something? And to clarify... how much can be done for the lead for Chlobo now, given that she's nursing? I haven't a clue how isopathy works (and I'd bet ideas on how to find a homeopath who does isopathy would be helpful, I know I'd be lost), but would isopathy just help with clearance of circulating lead, or would it mobilize extra, and how does that play into the NAC etc that you mentioned?

And thanks for coming over!

I just rechecked the water quality test results.

Lead: <.001 mg/L (EPA Max .015)
Copper: <.02 (EPA Max 1.3)

[sonnambula]

no, it doesnt' look like recent exposure, but given that she's sequestering that much I'd be concerned with long term low level exposures....does that make sense? She already has a heavy burden so she's not going to be able to tolerate everyday stuff as much as someone with a lower burden would.

It's a concern if the pipes are copper with lead soldering with that exposure level. I would personally (and this is just me) want it checked. If it was a current exposure it would show up in the blood (it doesn't matter how high of a burden your body has in it's tissues it's not generally going to spill into the blood. What's in the blood is what you are currently being exposed to.) I would like to know what the numbers were on the blood test...they just recently again lowered the bar on what's safe. It was 10, it's now 7 as far as I know.

*I* would want a retest for blood personally....but it's not necessary. As I said lead (any metal) really only circulates for 24-48 hours and is either excreted or sequestered. So...a blood test is a snapshot. Given your results I would want to be certain. I would think your ped (even though they don't like hair tests) would comply.

Yes, I would deal with copper with zinc supplementation (even though she's not showing that she's low) and liver support.

A naturopath that specializes in environmental medicine would be a good choice here. Someone that works extensively with metal issues and environmental contaminants. They tend to go hand in hand.

Isopathy allows the body to release the metals gently and in it's own time. It's not going to be as fast as DMSA or ALA, but it's effective (in my reading, understanding and experience) and has no real risks. It is just a bit at a time. You just need to make sure you have things in place to bind the metals once they are released. And the NAC...that's to clear the way and protect the breastmilk. We've talked about this in the past....I also have asked a few doc's about it since my understanding isn't consistent with Cutler's stance on glutathione. Apparently there is old research that says to use it, newer research that says it's not effective (and by a few accounts this may be what he was using when he wrote the book? I dunno.) and then the newest research which shows it absolutely is effective. From what I've read and been taught I fall into the "it's absolutely affective" camp. the biochemistry seems to support it so I use it.

So yeah...based on the fact that mom and baby's stores are that high even if it's NOT new I would be extra cautious. I would personally want to make certain it's not current as well.