Quiverfull/Fund. Christians- Questions About This Book

[holyhelianthus]

There is a thread in Books right now about Quiverfull: Inside the Christian Patriarchy Movement and I had started to type a post with questions I had steaming from it's description and thought I'd be better off asking here

So here's what I was going to post...


I am reading the description on Amazon and I am already seeing what I think are flaws. It seems that they aren't looking into it as a whole but rather the extreme side of it. Granted I am no authority but I find the quiverfull and fundamentalist Christian mom blogs to have really great homemaking advise so I read quite a few. Not only that but here on MDC we have more than a couple QF moms and I often lurk their threads and the wifely submission ones as well . So again no expert but this has me

Christian Right movement in which women put their fertility in the service of a patriarchal culture war

<snip>

They eschew all contraception in favor of the philosophy of letting God give them as many children as possible-families of twelve or more children that will, they hope, enable them to win the religion and culture wars through demographic means: by reproducing more than other social groups.

I was always under the impression this was exclusively about what they felt God has asked of women and men?

It doesn't seem like Joyce is giving an unbiased look at these people. But I could be way off here (and I am only reading the description after all).

Quiverfull moms and those within this movement please weigh in!

And just out of pure curiosity can I be enlightened about this part...

She doesn't speak in church

The first thing that popped into my head was that women don't speak at all as in are silent. I'd love some insight!

[zinemama]

Maggie, the issues you raise are related to things I wondered about, too. Granted, I don't know a whole lot about QF families other than the concept and that I see some with that in their sigs in the submissive wives threads I read with fascination.

I guess my question is, is the portrait drawn in this book typical of the QF movement as a whole? Just from lurking on MDC I didn't form the impression that it was a "movement," or that there were whole churches of people living this way. I took it to be more of an individual choice made by individual Fundamentalist Christians.

FWIW, the review I read was in Bitch Magazine (not what you'd expect to be well-disposed toward the QF concept!) and the reviewer said

"It would be easy to reduce the members of the Christian Patriarchy movement to a fringe group of hard-right kooks and poke fun at them; Joyce stays respectful...she portrays her interviewees as intelligent, patient and kind."

[Multimomma]

Yeah, I only have kids to outpopulate others ideologically. Gd forbid I should enjoy having kids and trusting the Lord for how many.

I haven't read the book myself, but as a QF mom, and sister to several others, I'm We were born in it, we weren't RAISED as QF, but we did marry into it. By choice even. And I even talk in church.

[zinemama]

Multimomma, so are you saying that the claim about outpopulating others idealogically is completely made up? That it's just an outsider's take on things?

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by zinemama

Multimomma, so are you saying that the claim about outpopulating others idealogically is completely made up? That it's just an outsider's take on things?

I'm not Mulitmomma but since posting the OP I went on and googled the author. She writes for The Nation regarding this and blogs at Talk 2 Action dot org and her articles/blog posts suggest to me that she is connecting the QF and Fund Christian movement with the Religious Right. It seems she's not seeing a separation of them at all- it's all one big political movement.

So though of course people who are QF (etc) are a part of the political part they aren't all. The book seems to be more about the Religious Right then a look at the Quiverfull to me.

[zech13_9_goforgold]

Aren't there QF people without large families? Aren't there QFers who aren't fund. Christians? I had gotten the impression from the QF forum that there were some. It's weird.

[TzippityDoulah]

oh my!!!

yes, I do think people like that exist... but no I promise all "QF" families are NOT like that.

I surely am not. I have no desire for "armies"... we just feel it's God's decision to decide who he does and does not send to be born into our family. period. no secret missions here we don't try to get pregnant anymore than we try not to. we just welcome who comes.


(then again I'm nost protestant, I am anabapist if anything... so we don't believe in worldy wars anyhow...)

[zonapellucida]

Hellooooooooooooooo I am QF I believe God knows what I can handle I think it is 9 so I would like to hang with the other moms with many Lots of love

[zinemama]

Thanks for that clarification, Hennyenny. So you QF mamas see it more as an individual thing you are doing because God calls you to? I got the impression from the review that it was about entire churches who live this way (she describes how one woman is shunned by her church for seeking to divorce an abusive husband).

Maybe it's both? Some people are QF because of personal beliefs and others are part of entire QF churches?

[Multimomma]

Originally Posted by zinemama

Multimomma, so are you saying that the claim about outpopulating others idealogically is completely made up? That it's just an outsider's take on things?

While I think it might be true for SOME, to generalize and say that it is true for all QF families is patently impossible. We're Episcopalian, for pete's sake

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by Multimomma

While I think it might be true for SOME, to generalize and say that it is true for all QF families is patently impossible. We're Episcopalian, for pete's sake

Sorry, this really tickled me.

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by zinemama

Thanks for that clarification, Hennyenny. So you QF mamas see it more as an individual thing you are doing because God calls you to? I got the impression from the review that it was about entire churches who live this way (she describes how one woman is shunned by her church for seeking to divorce an abusive husband).

Maybe it's both? Some people are QF because of personal beliefs and others are part of entire QF churches?

I am sure there are churches out there whose goal is to make some kinda mega christian right wing army or something heh... but not us. that to me is an extra biblical ideal. My husband and I believe through much seeking and study that it is clear God intends to be the author of life and we are not to try to control who is meant to be born. I understand not everyone feels his way, and some even have reason to believe we are very wrong. but it is our duty to honor what we feel god has lead us to do... and so we do. and we don't take it lightly and pregnancy for me has been very very hard every single time... so it's not exactly an easy "calling" for us...

like I said, there is no secret mission here just trying to live life as we feel god wants us to. and to be quite honest, though I fully trust God to know best, I'm not exactly giddy about the idea of having 10 or 12 kids. I'd be fully content with 3, if that is what he chose to give us. (I'm pregnant with our third). But I also realize with each kid comes more lessons, and he gives us the ways to prepare and provides the needs for those kids... so we're open to more. His plans always seem to work out so much better than our own

we don't go to a church that all agrees on this. we do this because we feel it is what God desires...

[Smokering]

Actually I do know of one QF woman - Mary Pride, who writes/wrote Big Happy Family and Practical Homeschooling - who wrote in one of her books that Christians having children was one way to outnumber the non-Christians (a few generations down the road, obviously). She even had the math on it, I believe. It wasn't her primary reason for being QF, but she certainly seemed keen on the idea.

I hasten to say I know plenty of other QF folks who don't have this philosophy.

[cappuccinosmom]

Christian Right movement in which women put their fertility in the service of a patriarchal culture war

<snip>

They eschew all contraception in favor of the philosophy of letting God give them as many children as possible-families of twelve or more children that will, they hope, enable them to win the religion and culture wars through demographic means: by reproducing more than other social groups.

There are some who feel that "outreproducing the bad guys" in the culture wars is an important reason to have big families. I have that on my facebook page. Just to be annoying. To me, it's not a main reason, but an unintended side effect of being QF. Mostly, I have heard it talked about in larger general terms. IE: "It is sad that so many Christians are limiting their families and thus limiting the number of Christians going into the next generation". Personally, I don't really go for the whole "Church militant" thing that orgs like Vision Forum promote.

I do not eschew contraception in order to have a large family so that the next generation will have more conservative voters. It may happen that way simply because the other side does tend to push the smaller family or ZPG philosophy. <shrug> I'll be dead and gone by the time it makes any difference anyway. And it's certainly not a race thing. My children are distinctly brown and half-African, so I'm not intent on building up a *white* "army of God".

I am QF because I believe children are blessings (to their parents and to society) and because I believe the size of my family is best left to God's authority, not mine. And that is the primary philosophy of most every QF family I know.

[cappuccinosmom]

Just from lurking on MDC I didn't form the impression that it was a "movement," or that there were whole churches of people living this way. I took it to be more of an individual choice made by individual Fundamentalist Christians.

I think you're right. I have seen people talking about a "movement" and I'm like "Where!? Where!? Point me in that direction!!!!!". As a QF family, we are *soooo* lonely in our church and in our area. I have *one* real life friend who is QF. I would love to be able to connect with a whole bunch of QF families, just once in a while. To be with people who don't despise me or think I'm an idiot for having 3 children and wanting more.

And from my online aquaintances with QFers, that seems to be the overwhelmingly most common experience.

[Tradd]

For the "movement"/"let's outnumber 'em" aspect of QF, check out these websites:

http://www.visionforum.com

http://www.visionforum.org

http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.org

[cappuccinosmom]

Yep. Know of them but VF and LAF are by far not representative of all QF.

There are even QF people who are vigorously, vehemently, and vocally opposed to both organizations as cultish/patriarchal/scary.

[holyhelianthus]

Originally Posted by cappuccinosmom

Yep. Know of them but VF and LAF are by far not representative of all QF.

There are even QF people who are vigorously, vehemently, and vocally opposed to both organizations as cultish/patriarchal/scary.

Which is my point. This book isn't about Quiverfull-ness (yes I made that up ) or even the Fund. Christians but rather about the Religious Right's movement borrowing from those ideologies. I think the problem is so many people lump all of it together.

[JesiLynne]

I think something most ppl do not keep in mind is that QF does not equal having tons of kids. Most of the ppl in my church are QF, and like one family I know, they are QF and God only gave them 2 children, a set of fraternal twin girls. QF is about trusting in God for the number of children you have. Some have lots, some don't.

BTW I talk in church too.

[cappuccinosmom]

Very true, JessiLynne. We have been married nearly 7 years and have only 3 children.

We know QF families who had unexplained infertility for several years or many years or their whole lives. I recently met an older lady who'd desperately wanted children, never used birth control, and never could find out why they couldn't have kids. Another had 4 kids within a few years, but no more, and never used birth control at all.

If QF is a "movement", it's one of the most diverse movements out there. Certainly not monolithic, whether in terms of family size, style of dress, style of worship, denomination, or any other particular.