How does HiB get in the bloodstream?

[Spectrolite]

So the bacteria goes through the nose and mouth and in most cases doesn't do much harm.

But what must happen, what kind of person must one be for the bacteria to get into places where it can cause havoc?

Please enlighten me.

[an_domhan]

Originally Posted by Spectrolite

So the bacteria goes through the nose and mouth and in most cases doesn't do much harm.

But what must happen, what kind of person must one be for the bacteria to get into places where it can cause havoc?

Please enlighten me.

As I understand it, almost all invasive disease involves encapsulated strains. The type b polysaccharide is not immunogenic in children (who are most at risk), and because of this, it sneaks in and then begins to invade certain parts of the body, and blood. The mechanism for which it does such, is poorly understood.

I'd suspect H. influenzae has evolved a bit... (genomic plasticity, altered receptors, etc...) Just a guess though.

[Peony]

My DD2 wasn't quite 1 yet when she was directly exposed to HiB. She had been sharing toys (of course at that age that means mouthing them) with a little boy the day before he fell ill. She had a history of chronic lung disease, spent 6 months on O2, etc... so I was just *slightly* concerned. Anyway, she never got it. The little boy lived, he apparently had a heart condition at birth that later turned out to be much more serious then thought, this wasn't discovered until he was life flighted away for the HiB to a children's hospital, so he did have considerable risk factors.

[Th1Th2]

That is through vaccination.

[mamakay]

Nobody really knows how it happens. Those bacteria usually live on mucosal surfaces, and exactly how they cross over into the bloodstream is a bit mysterious. It's often, if not usually, preceded by a viral infection, though.
Using antibiotics can cause it, too, weirdly enough.

[Scattershoot]

Originally Posted by mamakay

Nobody really knows how it happens. Those bacteria usually live on mucosal surfaces, and exactly how they cross over into the bloodstream is a bit mysterious. It's often, if not usually, preceded by a viral infection, though.
Using antibiotics can cause it, too, weirdly enough.

I'm glad someone started a thread about this. This question has been on my mind. So you are saying no one really knows how it enters outside of the usage of antibiotics and maybe some other mechanisms not really understood.

Th1Th2 says it is through vaccination as well.

I pretty much get all the other vaccines, as far as what they are assumed to do and the diseases they are supposed to address, but this Hib thing is just confusing to me.

Mamakay and anyone else who can help me. A child gets vaccinated for something other than Hib. The body responds negatively. Meningitis symptoms follow. IV antibiotics are given. Through this, Hib enters the bloodstream and makes it to the CSF. A lumbar puncture is done and a culture is taken. Hib shows up because they are specifically looking for it. . Hib is blamed for the meningitis, but in reality another vaccine started this whole ball rolling. Is this possible or even likely?

[an_domhan]

Originally Posted by Scattershoot

A child gets vaccinated for something other than Hib. The body responds negatively. Meningitis symptoms follow. IV antibiotics are given. Through this, Hib enters the bloodstream and makes it to the CSF. A lumbar puncture is done and a culture is taken. Hib shows up because they are specifically looking for it. . Hib is blamed for the meningitis, but in reality another vaccine started this whole ball rolling. Is this possible or even likely?

Abx do depress/suppress the immune system. A LOT of people carry Hib and it is certainly possible that the vaccine recipient already carried it, and the appropriate disruption caused it to become invasive. Is Hib disease defined by symptomology, or by the culture? Depends on how circular one needs to be I suppose.

[mamakay]

Mamakay and anyone else who can help me. A child gets vaccinated for something other than Hib. The body responds negatively. Meningitis symptoms follow. IV antibiotics are given. Through this, Hib enters the bloodstream and makes it to the CSF. A lumbar puncture is done and a culture is taken. Hib shows up because they are specifically looking for it. . Hib is blamed for the meningitis, but in reality another vaccine started this whole ball rolling. Is this possible or even likely?

It's not likely, because
1)vax reactions generally aren't going to mimic meningitis
2) if they're giving IV antibiotics, bacteria aren't going to be able to replicate in the bloodstream, so ABX in that situation aren't going to trigger bacteremia/meningitis. (that's the part that makes it not just unlikely, but impossible)

[an_domhan]

Originally Posted by mamakay

2) if they're giving IV antibiotics, bacteria aren't going to be able to replicate in the bloodstream, so ABX in that situation aren't going to trigger bacteremia/meningitis. (that's the part that makes it not just unlikely, but impossible)

Good point.

I'm not convinced Hib can survive in the environment, in any case.

I feel a bit twitchy in comparing the use of abx, and not adequately describing delivery, thanks for addressing that.

[Spectrolite]

Th1Th2, I knew you were going to say that.

There were plenty recorded cases of Hib in the prevaccine era..... how did the bacteria become invasive then, then?

[Th1Th2]

It's the vaccination that's causing all these imbalances in the NORMAL FLORA. Vaccines transform the body into a growth or culture medium for otherwise invasive microorganisms. Regardless whether the child is vaccinated with Hib or not, other vaccinations will provide a good place for Hib growth and other microorganisms like S. pneumoniae, N. menigitidis, E. coli etc. Their presence does not mean causality.

Hib is a fastidious organism to grow in cultures of tissue fluids. It grows well only in media enriched with sheep blood.

Vaccines contain washed sheep RBCs.

The child will deteriorate and even die because of toxicity as a result of poor health, previous vaccination, toxic drugs and other medical treatments that suppress symptoms.

[Th1Th2]

Originally Posted by an_domhan

Good point.

I'm not convinced Hib can survive in the environment, in any case.

I feel a bit twitchy in comparing the use of abx, and not adequately describing delivery, thanks for addressing that.

Antibiotics, just like vaccines, are notorious for transforming the body as a culture medium for other microorganisms. The reason we have 1st generation...2nd generation....3rd ....4th....and even 5th generation of broad spectrum antibiotics.

[Th1Th2]

Originally Posted by Spectrolite

Th1Th2, I knew you were going to say that.

There were plenty recorded cases of Hib in the prevaccine era..... how did the bacteria become invasive then, then?

It's all about the soil and not the seed that matters. Poor health is the underlying factor of mortality especially if the host becomes a patient in the hands of an allopathic doctor.

[ema-adama]

I asked this question elsewhere and I was told that if something interfers with the non-specific immune responses in the mucosa (I didn't ask if it was the mucosa exactly, but I am guessing it was), the Hib is able to sneak through.
I am guessing anything that weakens the immune system (the example given was being in a smokey environment) can creat the optimal environment in the nasopharynx for Hib to pass through.
I also know that breastfeeding protects against Hib, so I am guessing the breastmilk coats the mucosal linings of the throat, well the whole GI, and this offers a protective barrier preventing Hib from entering through into the blood stream.

Breastfeeding and not offering drugs has been my choice of preventative medicine. I know some people are more comfortable with the vaccine.

The interesting bit for me is that a vaccine was developed without trying to understand what was creating the conditions for invasive Hib and try to address those problems before injecting a series of vaccines. So we have a vaccine, and not much knowledge on how to prevent invasive Hib.
I also wonder what happens when there is no more Hib circulating. Do we need boosters from the environment like we do with chickenpox and measles? Will adults start needing boosters (vaccines) for Hib down the line?

[Scattershoot]

Originally Posted by mamakay

It's not likely, because
1)vax reactions generally aren't going to mimic meningitis
2) if they're giving IV antibiotics, bacteria aren't going to be able to replicate in the bloodstream, so ABX in that situation aren't going to trigger bacteremia/meningitis. (that's the part that makes it not just unlikely, but impossible)

Thanks.

Without the IV route is there more than an impossibility in your opinion?

[Scattershoot]

other vaccinations will provide a good place for Hib growth and other microorganisms like S. pneumoniae, N. menigitidis, E. coli etc. Their presence does not mean causality.

That's one of the main points I am trying to understand. Just because they find the Hib in the wrong places that doesn't mean it caused the symptoms? I mean they once thought Hib caused the flu.

So maybe a more likely scenerio is simply vaccination. Hib grows where it shouldn't as a result. The rare meningitis case arises. Hib is looked for, found and blamed, but in reality that may not be the case.

[Scattershoot]

Originally Posted by Th1Th2

Antibiotics, just like vaccines, are notorious for transforming the body as a culture medium for other microorganisms. The reason we have 1st generation...2nd generation....3rd ....4th....and even 5th generation of broad spectrum antibiotics.

I think this is a good point. Antiobiotics obviously don't always work and even create a situation where one can't get rid of harmless or not harmless bacteria.

Vaccines contain washed sheep RBCs.

So you're saying the Hib may have been introduced via vaccine (vaccine other than Hib) or perhaps the cultrue medium may have been involved since it is difficult to culture even in the best situations?

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by ema-adama

The interesting bit for me is that a vaccine was developed without trying to understand what was creating the conditions for invasive Hib and try to address those problems before injecting a series of vaccines.

Is this true?

[anewmama]

Originally Posted by Scattershoot

So maybe a more likely scenerio is simply vaccination. Hib grows where it shouldn't as a result. The rare meningitis case arises. Hib is looked for, found and blamed, but in reality that may not be the case.

but what about Hib where there is no Hib vaxes typically given? ie, that asia study I posted? or do you mean any and all vaxes?

[roxyrox]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

Is this true?

Yes, it's true for all "meningitis" vaccines. We don't really know what causes invasive disease. I think looking into this aspect would be of more benefit that developing more and more "meningitis" vaccines. (jmo)
I kinda think if you are vulnerable to meningitis, you could/would get it no matter what vaccines you have/haven't had. The total numbers of meningitis cases have not changed despite hib, pc and men c vaccines being added to the schedule(UK). The only thing that's changed is the "type".
Breastfeeding is protective, but only as long as you are breastfeeding(?)