My son's 7th grade class is debating the possible link between VAX and autism/autoimmune disease.

[mamaof5boys]

I just received the weekly email from my 7th grade son's teacher. I was shocked to find out that tomorrow they're going to be debating the possible link between VAXS and autism and autoimmune disease. We live in a very pro-vax city, so I'm sure the debate will be pretty biased toward pro-vax and a claim that there are no links, but I would love to arm my son with information that he could throw out there that would be anti-vax. I'm so crunched for time today, and it's not something he really needs to prepare for, but I would love any links you all might have that I could print information off for him to take to school. I have Inside Vaccines and the Pink Book I can look at. His teacher has two small children so it will be interesting to see what she has to say. It's such short notice, I wish I had more time to contact her to give some input. Thanks for the help!!

[Marnica]

Not something Id want my child debating at such a young age! UGH

I hope he can bring an alternative perspective! Good Luck..let us know how it goes

[ericswifey27]

How about PubMed? I just responded to the thread here in Vaccines about research showing salmon that are vaxxed are having (lupus like) autoimmune issues- that would be a good point to make- if its proven vaccines are causing these disorders in fish it's just a matter of time before its shown to be the same in humans. After all it took 50 years to prove in the courts that smoking was harmful...

Good luck

[shuttlt]

If you can do it in a way that your son feels comfortable with, go for it.

I'm the wrong person to advise you on what to argue, but if it was me..... I'd try to keep it simple, there's just too much material to argue anything but a tiny fraction. Pick something that stands on it's own. It seems to me that with the whole "does Hannah Poling have/not have autism?" question you can throw something together quite quickly and would introduce a new perspective without getting bogged down in detail that everybody contests anyway and without coming across too 'alternative'.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by ericswifey27

How about PubMed? I just responded to the thread here in Vaccines about research showing salmon that are vaxxed are having (lupus like) autoimmune issues- that would be a good point to make- if its proven vaccines are causing these disorders in fish it's just a matter of time before its shown to be the same in humans. After all it took 50 years to prove in the courts that smoking was harmful...

Good luck

Surely the question would then come back, is this additive in the vaccines given to humans? If it isn't, why would you expect the same effect to show up in humans? If you go down this route make sure that your son has an answer.

Equally, IF they haven't been specific that they are talking about human vaccination, then this might be quite a clever way to score an unexpected win for the underdogs.

[Ophelia]

I agree with ShuttIt, this is such a broad and deep and controversial subject that you may just want to pick one part of it and focus on that. Ideas:

-2 out of 5 recent cases in the special court indicated that vaccines did contribute to the child's autism

-mitochondrial dysfunction and its effects (Hannah Poling)

-the vaxed/unvaxed study by Generation Rescue

-the 2004 IOM study (the one all the docs quote as saying vaccines don't cause autism) was found to be flawed and the gov't/CDC admitted it

-the controversy about the numbers - are they really going up or is it just better reporting/diagnosis?

-specific studies

-pharma/gov't corruption (this one would be tough for that age group, though)

-population: where are autism rates highest? Lowest? (including other countries) for example: autism in Somalia is unheard of yet more and more Somali children in MN are getting autism. Why is that? What environmental factors are there?

-history: http://www.nakedauthors.com/2008/03/shot-in-dark.html

Studies that DO indicate a correlation: http://adventuresinautism.blogspot.c...-any-link.html

Let me know if you need more specifics on any of these, I have more bookmarks.

[WhiteHorse]

Originally Posted by Ophelia

I agree with ShuttIt, this is such a broad and deep and controversial subject that you may just want to pick one part of it and focus on that. Ideas:

-2 out of 5 recent cases in the special court indicated that vaccines did contribute to the child's autism

Where would I go to find these recent cases? Thanks!

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by WhiteHorse

Where would I go to find these recent cases? Thanks!

http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/opinio...cine/Published

this is the general website to do the search for all published cases

here is the Bailey Banks desicion http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/...S.02-0738V.pdf

and the Benjamin Zeller one http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/sites/...S.02-0738V.pdf

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by WhiteHorse

Where would I go to find these recent cases? Thanks!

Surely the judgements, agree with it or not, do not find that the children have autism? One had Acute Disseminated Encephalomyelitis and the others Microcephaly was found to have been agrivated by the MMR.

Where I think these cases are interesting to debate is in what sense they are/aren't autism. If they are then clearly there has been some kind of legal admission that vaccines might cause some rather unique instances of autism, if not, why not.

The cases that were rejected, as I understand it, are representative of the bulk of autism cases. The ones that were successful were specific and unique.

[Deborah]

They are cases that can be pulled out and called something else. After Hannah Poling's case was pulled out, the government started looking at the documents for the next child in the omnibus. This kid had all the same markers as Hannah for mito dysfunction. And someone did a quick study and found that a significant percentage of children diagnosed with autism have these same markers.

The pro-vax people like to call these cases unusual and unique. What was actually unusual and unique:

H.P. Her parents are medical people and did a great job of documenting what happened.

B.B. His doctors ran the right tests after he got ill, so his ADEM is documented. It could have occurred in hundreds of other cases in the omnibus, but the tests weren't run, so they don't have the evidence to proved ADEM. Doesn't mean it didn't happen in a significant proportion of the cases.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Deborah

They are cases that can be pulled out and called something else. After Hannah Poling's case was pulled out, the government started looking at the documents for the next child in the omnibus. This kid had all the same markers as Hannah for mito dysfunction. And someone did a quick study and found that a significant percentage of children diagnosed with autism have these same markers.

The pro-vax people like to call these cases unusual and unique. What was actually unusual and unique:

H.P. Her parents are medical people and did a great job of documenting what happened.

B.B. His doctors ran the right tests after he got ill, so his ADEM is documented. It could have occurred in hundreds of other cases in the omnibus, but the tests weren't run, so they don't have the evidence to proved ADEM. Doesn't mean it didn't happen in a significant proportion of the cases.

Well, good news for those parents then. If the vaccine court has already accepted this mechanism of harm I would imagine it would make it a lot easier for them to get compensation.

[runes]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

Well, good news for those parents then. If the vaccine court has already accepted this mechanism of harm I would imagine it would make it a lot easier for them to get compensation.

This is probably more relevant for children who are harmed from here on out. :

If your child has a developmental regression after receiving a vaccination, those conceded cases have shown the following things to be the determining factor in receiving compensation:

1. Avoid the A-word.
2. Use the HP and BB cases as a guide to get the right medical tests done.
3. Document, document, document.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by kidspiration

1. Avoid the A-word.

I thought the A-word was muddled up in the cases that were won. Wasn't the HP case originally an A-word test case? At least one of the judgements that were linked to a few posts ago had the A-word mentioned a number of times.

Originally Posted by kidspiration

2. Use the HP and BB cases as a guide to get the right medical tests done.

But presumably all of the existing cases who have not yet been to court should now be doing these tests. How expensive/invasive are they? If they aren't that expensive/invasive it might be an idea to do the tests in any case.

Originally Posted by kidspiration

3. Document, document, document.

For sure. Without documentation you only have the word of the complainent [is that the word?] as to the facts of the case.

[Deborah]

On the ADEM, if the tests aren't done within a few days it doesn't help. This is where vaccine damage denial by doctors messes things up. Parents could prove vaccine damage if doctors were willing to look for it. But doctors are heavily encouraged to assume that a)vaccines don't harm babies (with very rare exceptions) and b)vaccines are constantly being blamed for stuff that happens coincidentally. So "good" doctors will almost automatically deny the possibility of vaccine damage. Symptoms are all "normal".

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Deborah

On the ADEM, if the tests aren't done within a few days it doesn't help.

OK. That would explain it.

Originally Posted by Deborah

This is where vaccine damage denial by doctors messes things up. Parents could prove vaccine damage if doctors were willing to look for it.

Going by what you said before, then this is probably true of some of the cases. Are there any estimates of how many cases this would apply to? I would have thought some kind of ballpark estimate based on a bunch of assumptions should be possible.

[Deborah]

No idea. I did an informal survey once on this board. Out of 35 mothers who thought their kids had some degree of vaccine damage, 2 said that their doctors agreed and reported it to VAERS. I thought that was an unusually high rate of reporting. Here is an article which reviews how often one group of doctors reported reactions:

http://insidevaccines.com/wordpress/...dverse-events/

the concept that vaccine reactions are "normal" and therefore nothing to worry about prevents doctors from taking the usual steps. If a baby who has not been vaccinated comes in, acting like they have a brain injury (screaming, swollen fontanelle, etc.) the usual tests will be run. Unless the situation is extreme, these same steps will not be done if there was a vaccination recently.

Frankly, I think the entire set-up is criminal and doctors are suckers for going along with it.

[mamaof5boys]

Wow!!! Thank you SO much for the great information!!! I am always learning something new!!

So, my son came home yesterday and shared that his teacher gave them some information about vaxs. They talked about thimerisol, and she shared her story with them about how her daughter received 7 vaxs at her 6mo appointment and had a vax reaction!!! According to my son, the baby was hospitalized for two weeks! So of course my next question was- did she continue to vax, or vax her younger daughter? He thought she did vax, but spread them out.

So I felt like I was awake all night thinking how I could email this teacher, whom I don't know very well, and offer some websites for the kids to look at thinking she may actually learn something from them as well? Obviously not coming from an anti-vax stance, just giving info..... Should I even bother opening that can of worms?

[stik]

That sounds like a super-fun debate topic for parents. It's a bit intense for 7th graders though. The science involved is certainly well beyond what's covered in the 7th grade curriculum, and it can be very difficult to get NT children to understand the need for sensitivity in discussing other people's health problems during the middle school years.

How experienced is this teacher? I really think she may have bitten off more than she (or her students) can chew here. I'm glad that 7th graders are participating in debates, but there are a wide range of topics that would be much more appropriate for the middle school age group than this one. The research process that seems to be happening (i.e., "listen to the teacher tell a highly emotional personal story and then go home and ask your parents what they think") doesn't seem to me like it would set students up for success in learning how to participate in reasoned debates. As debating skills are pretty crucial to developing the ability to support a thesis through research and writing, I'm dismayed at this teacher's choices.

[Marnica]

Originally Posted by mamaof5boys

Wow!!! Thank you SO much for the great information!!! I am always learning something new!!

So, my son came home yesterday and shared that his teacher gave them some information about vaxs. They talked about thimerisol, and she shared her story with them about how her daughter received 7 vaxs at her 6mo appointment and had a vax reaction!!! According to my son, the baby was hospitalized for two weeks! So of course my next question was- did she continue to vax, or vax her younger daughter? He thought she did vax, but spread them out.

So I felt like I was awake all night thinking how I could email this teacher, whom I don't know very well, and offer some websites for the kids to look at thinking she may actually learn something from them as well? Obviously not coming from an anti-vax stance, just giving info..... Should I even bother opening that can of worms?

I wouldn't go there if I was you. I think you'd be opening a can of worms. You don't know this teacher well and your son is in her class.

[jennifercp8]

Originally Posted by stik

How experienced is this teacher? I really think she may have bitten off more than she (or her students) can chew here.

This. I don't know that I would have broached a topic like this in my classroom without clearing it through administration first. And I could safely bet $100 that my principal would rather we debate something like plastic vs. reusable bags instead of something like this.

And as a teacher who has had parents approach her about private matters - don't go there. It may not be as well received as you think it will, even if your intentions are positive. I have had students leave pamphlets and parents send me emails about topics that probably shouldn't be discussed - especially if there is no prior relationship.