Medela & the WHO code - Page 3

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by chfriend

I'm glad Mothering supports the WHO code. Bf'ing is absolutely the healthy way to go for everyone, mom, baby, rest of family and community.

But the Code and LLL might look at re-evaluating the way they characterize nursing mothers. Exposure to the picture of a bottle full of breastmilk just isn't the same as promoting formula. Given that, either the interpretation or the text of the Code should change.

I hear what you're saying and apologize if I wasn't clear. While MDC does support the WHO Code, we also want the Lactivism forum to be a safe place for looking critically at the Code from a Lactivist standpoint and see if it's doing what it's supposed to be doing. I hope everyone can feel safe here expressing their opinion.

I don't know that we can really lump LLL and the WHO Code together. They're two distinct groups, with two very different purposes. I do agree that LLL needs to come into the 21st century. FWIW, I think I'm seeing them try to do it. But change is hard. Maybe that's a separate thread?

[felix23]

Wow, I've been pronouncing Medela wrong all this time.

It doesn't really bother me if they advertise their bottles. I actually didn't know that you could just go buy the bottles seperatly. I've never seen them sold around here. I need some since my sister lost all but one bottle from the pump she gave me.

[chfriend]

I've seen the bottles and the pumps at Target. I wish it had been that easy to get them when dd1 was born.

[Hopesmommy]

Originally Posted by chfriend

More marketing and research on what bottles work best with breastmilk and which nipples work best and how long milk can sit out (a while since it's got live antibodies) etc. are just as supportive of long term bf as avoiding exposing mothers' tender eyes to bottles and pumps.

I'm glad Mothering supports the WHO code. Bf'ing is absolutely the healthy way to go for everyone, mom, baby, rest of family and community.

But the Code and LLL might look at re-evaluating the way they characterize nursing mothers. Exposure to the picture of a bottle full of breastmilk just isn't the same as promoting formula. Given that, either the interpretation or the text of the Code should change.

I agree.

[star thistle]

I think Medela is doing itself a disservice by violating the code, presumably in the name of commerce. IMO, it would behoove them to issue an apology and retract their statement if they were, in fact, in support of the WHO code and wanted to abide by its provisions.

Medela's commercial and give-away promotions are *clearly* violations of the code.

[annekka]

Another point, and maybe this is a bit OT, but the Medela bottles really suck (um, no pun intended ). I am a very loyal user of Medela pumps, but it seems they need to take some of their advertising money and put that into bottle R&D. The lids don't fit right after only a few uses, the measurement marks are inaccurate, and don't even think about using the heated drying cycle in the dishwasher, even top-rack. The glass Evenflow bottles are excellent quality, no plastic to worry about, and are still less than 1/2 the price.

Personally I have no problem with advertising a bottle to us pumping moms who need to decide how best to provide for our LOs when we're away. But IMO the real ethical problem here is that they are making a shoddy product, inflating the price, and relying on brand loyalty and advertising to boost sales. No a great service to the hardworking breastfeeding moms.

So I'll stick with Evenflow bottles, which work just fine with Medela pumps BTW.

[Bookworm?]

Originally Posted by annekka

Personally I have no problem with advertising a bottle to us pumping moms who need to decide how best to provide for our LOs when we're away. .

I think this is what a lot of the posters are saying. But the fact is they are not just advertising to those who are already pumping and in search of bottles. As many have said it's not so much about American moms but the effects worldwide.

I have respect for LLL and any other organization that is sticking to supporting the Code. How would we feel if LLL(or others) gave lip service to supporting the Code but in practice continued to endorce a company in violation of the Code. We can't have it both ways.

The Code cannot differentiate between companies who are mostly compliant, supportive of breastfeeding and those who are blatant violators. A violation is a violation.

For those of you who use Medela products this means nothing for you. You can still chose to use their products just as you can chose to supplement with a formula of your choice despite any violations of the Code the company may have committed.

It is unfortuante. Our group uses Medela handouts and rents Medela pumps. This will be affecting us greatly.

[Baby_Vol]

Wow. Didn't know this.

I will look into it more, but the way I feel right now LLL will no longer be getting support from THIS working Mom NOR will I be recommending LLL meetings to other Moms in my area.

I get talked down to enough for my choice to work outside of the home. Despite the ZERO support I have gotten from LLL in this choice, I STILL (on my own determination) was able to exclusively provide breatmilk for my two children. The first for over a year, and the second is 10 months and still going strong.

I would be flat broke if I had to buy a whole new pump every time I needed a new bottle.

I am saddened LLL has chosen to take this stance. An outdated policy by the WHO should be updated to included pumping mothers.

Sometimes I feel as if the world is against those who pump. To the very exteme BF community, we are outcast b/c we don't soley nurse. To the mainstream world, we are freaks for wanting to pump and work instead of just give "easy" formula.

This all makes me want to start my own community to support working and pumping Moms.

I'm VERY dissapointed in LLL. Shame on them for doing that to a company that has helped pumping Moms continue to provide breastmilk for many years!

I proudly take my PIS to work each day, and will continue to do so.

LLL, if you read this, you've lost a donation from me. I'm really tired of everyone being against working Moms, and this is just the final draw for me, personally. I can't take it anymore, and I sure won't support it with my money.

[songbh]

Attempting once again to stem the flow of misinformation:

Originally Posted by Baby_Vol

I would be flat broke if I had to buy a whole new pump every time I needed a new bottle.

Neither the Code nor LLL are doing anything at all to interfere with your ability to purchase bottles. The Code guidelines don't prohibit Medela from selling stand-alone bottles, just from advertising those bottles to the general public.

An outdated policy by the WHO should be updated to included pumping mothers.

There is nothing outdated about the enormous global public health crisis that is caused by lack of breastfeeding. While the Code was first written in 1981, it is very much relevant and needed today. Babies continue to die by the thousands every day b/c they aren't breastfed exclusively for the first six months with continued breastfeeding along with suitable complementary foods up to age 2. Unethical marketing of artificial baby milk and bottles and teats is a huge contributor to those deaths.

Sometimes I feel as if the world is against those who pump.

The world that you are speaking of and the world that the Code is concerned with are, for all intents and purposes, two completely different worlds. The whole "mommy wars" aspect of this debate in North America is beyond irrelevant to the needs, concerns, and realities experienced by the vast majority of mothers worldwide. The Code is not. about. you.

Are we really so self-centered and uncaring that we feel our right to view advertising for the products we buy trumps the right to life of a million babies a year? Please. Everyone. Think about it.

[PatioGardener]

Originally Posted by Baby_Vol

I would be flat broke if I had to buy a whole new pump every time I needed a new bottle.

I think there is still some misunderstanding here. The Code doesn't say that companies can't sell bottles or nipples or atificial milks... it just sets limits on how these things can be advertised to the public. These limits (developed in conjuction with these companies, as a PP pointed out) are to protect breastfeeding.

Medela could, if they wanted, abide by the Code when advertising their products, but they have chosen not to. The Code doesn't say that they can only sell bottles with pumps. You could still by a single bottle if Medela chose to follow the Code. Only their advertising would have to change.

[smanore]

<I'm VERY dissapointed in LLL. Shame on them for doing that to a company that has helped pumping Moms continue to provide breastmilk for many years!>

I'm sorry to read that you feel that way. LLL is really not doing anything to Medela. They are going to continue honoring the contract they have with Medela until the contract is fulfilled. What LLL is not going to do is accept any funding from Medela. Long before LLL had a working relationship with Medela they supported the WHO code for the marketing of infant formula.

Medela would be able to still sell breast pumps, bottles and teats, all while honoring the Code. When a company advertises their artificial infant milk, bottles or teats directly to the public they are not Code compliant. One thing to take into consideration, is that until just recently, Medela has been a company that was Code compliant. I feel that they are now putting profit before ethics.

I think women who pump so that they can continue to provide breastmilk to their babies while working outside of the home are awesome! LLL would have no problem with mothers purchasing Medela pumps, or any of their other products. This isn't about limiting mothers choices. It is about the company and their marketing/advertising.

[felix23]

I thought that they sold breastmilk bottles. At least that is what they are labeled on their site. I really have no problem with them advertising that they sell bottles to put your pumped breastmilk in. They make it pretty clear that the bottles are to be used for breastmilk not formula and go along with their pump.

I just view these bottles as a pump accessory, kind of like if they advertised that they sold extra tubing. I just don't see how advertising bottles to go with a breastpump is going to cause women to formula feed.

[songbh]

Originally Posted by felix23

I just don't see how advertising bottles to go with a breastpump is going to cause women to formula feed.

Like this (with apologies for repeating myself):

Originally Posted by songbh

Selling bottles and teats to mothers is one step towards disrupting their breastfeeding relationship and selling them artificial baby milk. How many of us here on the lactivist board would think it's a swell idea to give an expectant mother who intends to breastfeed a nice set of bottles, teats, and pacifiers at her baby shower? We know this is not supportive of breastfeeding and that just having them in the house makes it more likely that breastfeeding will fail.

Now imagine how much the risk to the baby's health is increased if that mother doesn't have access to clean water, electricity, or decent medical care. Even if it's breastmilk going in the bottles (which it likely would not be) [emphasis added the 2nd time around], if the bottles and nipples become contaminated with the fecal matter that is endemic in most of the world's water supply, what's going to happen to the baby who drinks from those bottles and teats? There's a greatly increased risk of that baby becoming seriously ill and dying -- directly due to the use of bottles and teats as a substitute for at-the-breast breastfeeding.

(snip)

Medela can sell its bottles and teats just fine without marketing them as stand-alone products in violation of the Code. They're not the victims here, and LLL is not the bad guy. Also, this is NOT about LLL or any other breastfeeding advocate pitting SAHMs against working-and-pumping mothers in North America. This is about babies dying unnecessarily in large numbers in most of the rest of the world.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by songbh

Like this (with apologies for repeating myself):

Well I agree that they shouldn't be advertising breastpumps and breastmilk bottles in places with no electricity or running water, but in places where that is not a problem, then IMO it is okay to advertise those things. Let's face it, people who are using breastpumps are going to use bottles, so I can see why breastpump maker is going to advertise that they also sell bottles that go with their breastpump.

[Kleine Hexe]

Originally Posted by Baby_Vol

Wow. Didn't know this.

I will look into it more, but the way I feel right now LLL will no longer be getting support from THIS working Mom NOR will I be recommending LLL meetings to other Moms in my area.

I get talked down to enough for my choice to work outside of the home. Despite the ZERO support I have gotten from LLL in this choice, I STILL (on my own determination) was able to exclusively provide breatmilk for my two children. The first for over a year, and the second is 10 months and still going strong.

I would be flat broke if I had to buy a whole new pump every time I needed a new bottle.

I am saddened LLL has chosen to take this stance. An outdated policy by the WHO should be updated to included pumping mothers.

Sometimes I feel as if the world is against those who pump. To the very exteme BF community, we are outcast b/c we don't soley nurse. To the mainstream world, we are freaks for wanting to pump and work instead of just give "easy" formula.

This all makes me want to start my own community to support working and pumping Moms.

I'm VERY dissapointed in LLL. Shame on them for doing that to a company that has helped pumping Moms continue to provide breastmilk for many years!

I proudly take my PIS to work each day, and will continue to do so.

LLL, if you read this, you've lost a donation from me. I'm really tired of everyone being against working Moms, and this is just the final draw for me, personally. I can't take it anymore, and I sure won't support it with my money.

I'm sorry you feel this way. I try very hard to avoid the "mommy wars" and assumptions. Keep in mind that your experience with LLL is not going to be the same across the board. I get frustrated when I hear this about LLL. I work very hard to welcome working moms to LLL. Every Leader I know feels the same as I do. Yet, women think that LLL is not for working moms. So you can go ahead and stop referring working moms to LLL, and I'll go ahead and work my butt off trying to change the image of LLL being against working moms. I'll continue to advertise, organize, and hold evening meetings specifically for working mothers. I'll continue to do so even though no one shows up. I'll continue to make myself available, taking time from my family, to help working moms...even though no one comes. I'll continue to try and make a difference in how working mothers think of LLL because working mothers need support.

It does feel like I'm fighting a losing battle though. So I'm very sorry you feel that LLL is against working mothers.

[Belle]

Originally Posted by annekka

Another point, and maybe this is a bit OT, but the Medela bottles really suck (um, no pun intended ). I am a very loyal user of Medela pumps, but it seems they need to take some of their advertising money and put that into bottle R&D. The lids don't fit right after only a few uses, the measurement marks are inaccurate, and don't even think about using the heated drying cycle in the dishwasher, even top-rack. The glass Evenflow bottles are excellent quality, no plastic to worry about, and are still less than 1/2 the price.

Personally I have no problem with advertising a bottle to us pumping moms who need to decide how best to provide for our LOs when we're away. But IMO the real ethical problem here is that they are making a shoddy product, inflating the price, and relying on brand loyalty and advertising to boost sales. No a great service to the hardworking breastfeeding moms.

So I'll stick with Evenflow bottles, which work just fine with Medela pumps BTW.

: I agree completely. I have to use other brand bottles for give my breastfed baby expressed milk because the Medela bottles suck so badly. They also only make bottles with the narrow mouth with tiny nipples. I have to use Avent, Playtex, or EvenFlo bottles because they have the nice wide nipples that I prefer to give to my baby. There are no bottles that are compatible with my Pump-in-style that are like this. I wish that Medela would put a little more into improving their bottles.

[star thistle]

Originally Posted by felix23

Well I agree that they shouldn't be advertising breastpumps and breastmilk bottles in places with no electricity or running water, but in places where that is not a problem, then IMO it is okay to advertise those things. Let's face it, people who are using breastpumps are going to use bottles, so I can see why breastpump maker is going to advertise that they also sell bottles that go with their breastpump.

The problem here is not where Medela is choosing to market their stand alone bottles and teats, but that they are marketing them period. This advertising is a violation of the WHO code.

My good friend in the Peace Corps lived in Mali for 3 years. She said Malian women idealized the American mother image. Even though they had limited access to running/clean water and no money to buy bottles or formula (much less a tv to watch commercials on), they assumed because the majority of American women bottle fed their babies with formula, it must be superior to breastfeeding. Imagine how catastrophic it would be for these Malian babies if a formula company were to give away their product and/or Medela were to give away their bottles to these women.

There is a very good reason the code exists.

[songbh]

Originally Posted by hucklebearie

The problem here is not where Medela is choosing to market their stand alone bottles and teats to, but simply that they are marketing them period. This advertising being a violation of the WHO code.

My good friend in the Peace Corps lived in Mali for 3 years. She said Malian women idealized the American mother image.

Yes, exactly. The Code does not permit piecemeal compliance for companies who claim to be Code-compliant, and this is for precisely the reason hucklebearie describes.

Corporations are transnational institutions, and images flow across the globe in seconds now. While the U.S. can't export its clean water and excellent medical care to developing countries, its images of the modern life show up everywhere and have a huge influence on cultures around the world.

At the heart of the Code guidelines is a recognition that breastfeeding lives and dies on cultural perceptions and assumptions. A corporation that is Code-compliant takes the stance that breastfeeding is normal and behaves accordingly, refusing to make profits by contributing to the culture of bottle-feeding that has spread around the world in the last half-century.

[CellarDoor]

First, I want to say THANK YOU to songbh (and others) for the great clarifications about the WHO code and why it's important to uphold.

Second, I'm really disheartened to hear about the bad experiences/perceptions that some have about LLL on this thread. I'm personally working hard to change the image of the organization (e.g., only for SAHMs) by how I work with mothers. I talk to pumping moms on almost a daily basis and I do the best job I can to help them meet their needs.

The Medela ad is really disturbing because of the blatant message that bottle feeding is better/nicer/easier/hipper than breastfeeding directly. It goes along with the current cultural perception that the benefits of breastfeeding are solely in the milk itself and have nothing to do with the mode of delivery.

I am also shocked by the apathy contained in this thread in terms of how Western marketing affects women in 3rd world countries: I DO care.

Medela makes great pumps and it's practically a household name at this point. How much money would they REALLY lose by becoming code-compliant? I see a letter in my future...

[felix23]

Originally Posted by hucklebearie

The problem here is not where Medela is choosing to market their stand alone bottles and teats, but that they are marketing them period. This advertising is a violation of the WHO code.

My good friend in the Peace Corps lived in Mali for 3 years. She said Malian women idealized the American mother image. Even though they had limited access to running/clean water and no money to buy bottles or formula (much less a tv to watch commercials on), they assumed because the majority of American women bottle fed their babies with formula, it must be superior to breastfeeding. Imagine how catastrophic it would be for these Malian babies if a formula company were to give away their product and/or Medela were to give away their bottles to these women.

There is a very good reason the code exists.

If Medela gives bottles to women in countries with no water or electricity, then I will be outraged at them. I thought the commercial was awful, but not because of the bottles, I hated the message. I think the WHO code needs to be less black and white. I hate all laws and rules that don't realize that life is full of shades of grey. Breastmilk bottles are not evil. Especially when they are advertised in a country like America. I wish they would advertise their pumps and bottles more, focusing mainly on showing the women pumping at work, the baby being bottlefed breastmilk by the caregiver. Most women I know who don't breastfeed do so because they have to go back to work and they don't even think about pumping. Or if they do, their jobs won't accomodate them. And it's not that uncommon for daycares to also give moms a hassle about dealing with breastmilk in bottles. I want that to change, that breastmilk in bottles is not assumed to be something gross to deal with.

Maybe having more commercials showing women pumping and advertising bottles as for breastmilk to be used with pumping might help make it easier for women to continue breastfeeding when they go back to work. If all jobs automatically assumed that all new moms were going to need a place and time to pump and store milk, then I really think the breastfeeding rates would go up. Women in America who pump are going to need bottles, and I have no issue with Medela advertising their breastmilk bottles to them.

When I think of my cousin who came home crying everyday because her job wouldn't give her the time to pump or the space to store her milk, that upsets me horrible. Eventually her supply dropped so much that she had to supplement during the day. I just can't get too upset about Medela advertising that they sell extra bottle to go along with their pumps.