Paying for grad school-- help me brainstorm talking to dp

[darien]

This is kind of a mess, so forgive me if my explanation wanders.

For the past few years, I've been a WAHM and homeschooling mom. I've been mainly doing home childcare, but I'm burned out on it. I wanted something new that would 1) provide $$, 2) get me some adult interaction, and 3) let us keep homeschooling.

Dp repeatedly suggested I get an MLIS (Master of Library and Information Science). I was hesitant, but after much consideration, I applied and was accepted to start this Summer.

The problem is-- I've received my financial aid report, and the amount I'm expected to pay= the whole yearly tuition! In other words, the government judges that I don't need aid.

I'm still waiting to hear from the university, so I may still be offered something (like a work study job, or a teaching assistantship). Or, I may not.

In theory, we could afford the tuition, but only with MAJOR belt tightening and priority re-evaluating. Here's the very heart of the problem-- almost all the "frivolous" spending is done by dp. Therefore, it would be largely HIM that would need to change. And he's not big on change, especially if it involves him buying himself less stuff.

I thought that I would be offered student loans, and that I'd deal with them on my own, after I graduated. Oops.

Dp is defensive and secretive about how much he spends. : Just to give a couple of examples of what I'm dealing with, here-- dp spends $200/month on cigarettes. Last month he spent $240 on downloaded movies and music. He bought himself other things, too.

Last month I spent maybe $5 on myself. I'm not extravagant with the kids, either. Most of what I buy them is from the thrift store.

How do I bring up to dp that I need him to "give" me so much money, that he's used to spending on himself?

[Azuralea]

That's tough. It sounds to me like you've got almost two separate problems here: a) the cost of school and whether it is worth it and b) your partner's discretionary spending.

For the first, personally I'd think extremely carefully before investing in any higher education at this point. Will you make enough money from the MLIS to make it worth the cost? I am not somebody who thinks education should only be about your future salary, but in a plunging economy, I think it's critical to seriously think about the cost of the education as opposed to what you get out of it. That having been said, as I understand it MLIS jobs do pay relatively well, and you might like the creative aspects a lot.

For the second, your partner's secretiveness about what he spends raises some red flags for me. You're his financial partner and you should know about your budget. You are equally entitled to the money and equally entitled to have a say in how it is spent. If he's overspending, it will negatively impact you and your kids, and it's not right for him to hide it. Nearly $500/month of discretionary spending seems like a lot to me, given how little you spend on yourself and the kids.

Will he consider writing out a budget? Moving to a cash system for a few months? Maybe that will help him see where the money goes?

[Think of Winter]

I guess you don't really want to talk to him about the cost and a budget? Talking about money is not easy, but you really need to learn how to do it if you're going to make good decisions for your family.

I can understand you being uncomfortable. He makes the money, he should get to spend it, right? But you are a team. You both work hard for your family, it just happens that his salary is bigger. The money that he brings home is yours as a family, and that's how you should spend it. He may completely agree.

I'd start by getting a good estimate of what school is going to cost, and sit down with him to look at your budget. It may be a blessing in disguise that you didn't get the loans you hoped for. It really just puts the problem off until later. He may be completely amenable to giving up some of his spending (At least the music and movies. Smoking is a lot harder.)

[Adamsmama]

I don't know how much your schooling will cost -- but I'm might search around for other programs that would cost less. Mostly online schools...but that might be the whole reason you are going back to school (interaction with other adults?)

I think your DH's problem is a separate problem (although it does effect your schooling, too). I'm not sure how to deal with that...

[ginger_rodgers]

Well, hang on, here.

First, it's good that you're not getting loans. Student loans become an albatross in a roaring hurry.

Second, if your dp is that inflexible and wound up, what are you going to do when you graduate? Will he be willing to move if you can't find employment locally?

Third, I don't see $240-350/mo on personal expenditures to be out of line, though if it's mostly music and movies I have to wonder how much time he actually has to spend with you guys, and why he's so engaged with the screen instead of family. But I think it's a good idea for any spouse, man or woman, to have some money each month that's his or hers alone, and none of the other spouse's business what it's spent on.

Fourth, I agree with a pp -- this is a setup that would scare me. Essentially you, a capable, grown woman, are saying, "Help me convince him to let me go to school."

As for the school costs, it's late for this year, but look into scholarships for women reentering the workforce; also speak with the program head or main assistant and let them know that you can't go, or can't go fulltime, unless there's some aid. Do keep in mind though that this is an extraordinarily tough year for all universities. Most have hiring freezes on and are cutting programs and support to the bone. Masters' programs get cut first, unless they're high-prestige.

Also, consider what your life will be like if you do get a TAship. I really don't see how you're going to have time to homeschool -- you'll probably have a 2/1 courseload, plus your own classes, and you won't be able to control the scheduling. I'd also ask you to consider how your dp is likely to react when graduate school turns out to be extremely timeconsuming and intense. Is he willing to step in, cook, do chores? (Are the kids old enough to take on some of this work?) Will he grumble and moan and be a passive-aggressive drag about it, and try to make it seem like it's your fault for being a bad person and selfishly going to grad school? Or will he really support you? Has he got any examples of a man supporting a woman this way in his life?

I don't say this to try to dissuade you, but to try to lay out the obstacles a little more plainly, both in your marriage and in this grad-school career. I'm all for more independence, but I think you're going to have a hell of a time going after it without shaking up the established order pretty hard.

Finally, if you must, there are still private loans you can get if your credit is good. But I definitely would not do that without discussing it with your dp, esp. if you're in a community property state.

[darien]

Thanks for the thoughtful responses.

Dp and I have been in marriage counseling-- though we're not going right now, as the counselor thought things were now going ok. Proof positive that we need a new counselor, right there!

Part of the reason I wanted to go to grad school was to have marketable skills that don't involve classroom teaching or child care (How can I hs my kids if I'm teaching second grade all day?). Also, I figured with an MLIS, moving for a job wouldn't be an issue, because we live in the land of library jobs.

I do realize how much work it is to have kids and be in school-- I've done it before. I don't think dp realizes, though, not really. He's pledged to arrange his schedule to watch our 4 yo when I'm at class. I know he's expecting me to use a sitter a lot, though. I belong to a babysitting co-op, and have been sitting tons, racking up hours to get "free" babysitting for my son.

Dp and I have both been in school after having kids, but before we were dirt poor. We got loans and work-study. I got merit scholarships. He's going to freak when I tell him it's got to be out of pocket.

Dp encouraged me to go, so that's not the issue. The thing is, we both expected me (with the help of our good friend Student Loan) to pay for it.

I do want us to budget. I want us to be able to trust each other, and share finances. This has been a recurring issue, for years.

Sigh. I don't know how to talk to him about this, because there's too much bad blood between us about his spending habits. FTR, he didn't JUST spend $450 last month-- it's just what he spent on cigs, music and movies. He spent more money on himself, believe me. :

Also, dp owes over $20,000 on his personal credit cards-- again, mostly buying stuff for himself.

I'm sunk, right? There's no way I can afford school now. I'm not sure I can ever afford it, with Mr. Spendy around.

[Denvergirlie]

You are in a tough spot.

The $20K in credit card debt... belongs to the both of you, not just him. Or it does if you are both supposed to be a team.

Lay it all out on the table.

Time spent dropping off/ picking up kids from babysitter, communting to school, actual time in class, time spent studying, any work study stuff you will need to do above actual class time and studying.

Then factor in additional costs of returning to school, lunch, gas, wear and tear on car, parking fees/ metro fare, any new clothing needed?

Now factor in the fact that you might eat out/ get delivery food more because you're worn down from all this running around plus the time to decompress for a few minutes upon arriving home. Maybe 30 minutes before you start to cook dinner/ homeschool activites.

There are a lot more to take into consideration than just the actual cost of school itself.

If he wants you to go to school as much as you want to go to school, you are going to have to work together as a team. All for one, and one for all.

You're going to need to get on a budget and have a combined goal to stay on it.

Can you both just sit down with all the monthly bills, debts and a list of all the above costs? No blaming each other, you are both in this together.

best of luck to you

[ginger_rodgers]

Originally Posted by Denvergirlie

You are in a tough spot.

The $20K in credit card debt... belongs to the both of you, not just him. Or it does if you are both supposed to be a team.

Oh my goodness, no. If Mr. Spendy racked it up himself on things that he just felt like buying, and it wasn't for, say, groceries and medical and kids' programs and roofing -- family stuff -- then that's all his. Being a good team member doesn't mean you're forever knocking yourself out making up for your teammate's thoughtlessness & irresponsibility.

OP, it does sound like you have a real financial problem here, as well as a shaky marriage. It looks to me like the basic problem is that you're financially dependent on a man you can't trust with money, and whom you feel puts himself far ahead of you and the family. (Actually I thought the expectation that you personally take on all the costs of this endeavor was kind of strange -- after all, isn't the income going to benefit the entire family? Usually this is a family affair.)

I know of only one way to change this, and that's to get yourself financially independent, without waiting for him to get less interested in his cigs and movies and whatever else it is he distracts himself with. Then you can deal with him from a position of strength, and your relationship will not be about power struggles over money. So in that regard I do think the MLIS is a good idea. (Though keep in mind that there are no job guarantees in your area. The last 15 years have been a freakazoid, credit-fueled bonanza for libraries.)

I hear that you're dedicated to HSing (though frankly I still don't see where you'll get the time for it while TAing and going to grad school; that's more than a fulltime job. Grad school is generally much more time-intensive than undergraduate studies are, and most programs sort the wheat from the chaff pretty fast). But, realistically, I think you may have to choose between fulltime HSing and getting a master's degree.

Also, once you're working, you're going to be working during the day, no? I know libraries are open weekends and evening, but all the professional staff I see in public, university, college, and medical libraries around here work 8-5.

I guess in your position I'd look first to making sure I was employable at a good wage should the marriage deteriorate -- and that argues for the MLIS. Next priority: Marriage and financial counseling. Next priority: Homeschooling.


good luck -

[SleeplessMommy]

Originally Posted by darien

...
Also, dp owes over $20,000 on his personal credit cards--

You need to have "the budget talk" ... even if you don't go to grad school. Are you guys married? Is your name on those cc accounts? 'cause that is a huge amount of debt to be carrying right now.

I think there are 2 MLIS programs in DC? That is 2 chances at an assistantship. I expect there to be competition in the current market. The other option is to get a library job (overnight shift?) which would pay tuition for a few classes year.

You can open a 529 plan in your name - to start saving for grad school. If you don't use the funds, your kids can later :-)

[lolar2]

Talk to the department head and to the financial aid office. Sometimes you can appeal these decisions.

[Azuralea]

Originally Posted by ginger_rodgers

Oh my goodness, no. If Mr. Spendy racked it up himself on things that he just felt like buying, and it wasn't for, say, groceries and medical and kids' programs and roofing -- family stuff -- then that's all his. Being a good team member doesn't mean you're forever knocking yourself out making up for your teammate's thoughtlessness & irresponsibility.

I thought your post was really good, but if she is married to DP (not sure), then whether she likes it or not, by default the $20,000 is her debt as well, even if he racked it all up on ciggies and toys. Edit: What I mean is that unless the credit card is solely in DP's name and always has been (which doesn't seem to be common in a lot of married couples), she's responsible even if she's never used it.

[Denvergirlie]

Originally Posted by Azuralea

I thought your post was really good, but if she is married to DP (not sure), then whether she likes it or not, by default the $20,000 is her debt as well, even if he racked it all up on ciggies and toys. Edit: What I mean is that unless the credit card is solely in DP's name and always has been (which doesn't seem to be common in a lot of married couples), she's responsible even if she's never used it.

Even if it is in his name only, and they are married, if a divorce ever enters into the picture, the other spouse can be made to pay this... ask me how I know.... Thus my orginal statement that this debt is also hers (if they are married and depending on the judge...).

[darien]

Originally Posted by Denvergirlie

Even if it is in his name only, and they are married, if a divorce ever enters into the picture, the other spouse can be made to pay this... ask me how I know.... Thus my orginal statement that this debt is also hers (if they are married and depending on the judge...).

We are married. The cc's are entirely in his name-- in fact, he opened them without my knowledge. Honestly, I don't even remember if our state is a community property state. I'm afraid to know how screwed I am.

There are 2 library schools here, but one is much pricier and doesn't focus on what I'm looking for. I may still get some aid from the school, but it's iffy.

I told dp last night that we needed to talk about money, and he put me off, saying "we" don't have time until next week. :

I looked at his last bank statement again (without his knowledge). Divided loosely into categories, dp spent about 2/3 of his net income on "family" bills and work related purchases (Work purchases he chooses to make, and does not get reimbursed for). Around 15% I wasn't sure whether or not to call "family" or "personal." This includes cash withdrawals and his credit card payments. Another 15% was purely personal spending.

That left only about 5% of his net earnings in the bank!

[Azuralea]

Originally Posted by Denvergirlie

Even if it is in his name only, and they are married, if a divorce ever enters into the picture, the other spouse can be made to pay this... ask me how I know.... Thus my orginal statement that this debt is also hers (if they are married and depending on the judge...).

Oh, yes, you're right about that, too. Basically, at this point I'd assume that the 20k of debt belongs to both of them, and view it as a nice surprise at some point if that turns out not to be true.

Originally Posted by darien

I looked at his last bank statement again (without his knowledge). Divided loosely into categories, dp spent about 2/3 of his net income on "family" bills and work related purchases (Work purchases he chooses to make, and does not get reimbursed for). Around 15% I wasn't sure whether or not to call "family" or "personal." This includes cash withdrawals and his credit card payments. Another 15% was purely personal spending.

That left only about 5% of his net earnings in the bank!

Why on earth are these his bank statements? You are partners and the money belongs to both of you. The bank statements are as much yours as they are his, no matter what he says. You should not have to sneak around and look at family bank statements -- you should be able to read them in front of him.

I think putting yourself in a stronger financial position is important here, given what you've said. He doesn't treat you as an equal partner and doesn't respect your financial concerns. It's not right.

It may be that putting yourself in a stronger financial position means the MLIS, but I don't think your DP, from what you've said, is going to be very supportive. :

[Think of Winter]

Originally Posted by darien

Dp and I have been in marriage counseling-- though we're not going right now, as the counselor thought things were now going ok. Proof positive that we need a new counselor, right there!

I'd make this a first priority, myself. You really can't tackle this by yourself. You and your dp need to work together.

Originally Posted by darien

Also, dp owes over $20,000 on his personal credit cards-- again, mostly buying stuff for himself.

I don't know if you saw my post about my Capital One rate rising 10%. I'm not one to make predictions, but it seems very likely that your rates, if not already sky high, will be going up. An increase of 10% for you would be another $170/month in interest alone.

Originally Posted by darien

There's no way I can afford school now. I'm not sure I can ever afford it, with Mr. Spendy around.

I think you're probably right. You could contact the school and ask if you could defer your acceptance.

[SuzyLee]

Honestly, in your position, I think it might be worth getting student loans if that is the only way to go to school. I say that from the perspective of getting your degree and then divorcing him ASAP, which in my shoes, I would do. Everything you post makes me think so more strongly.

Of course, one thing I do think you need to address is that you won't be able to FT homeschool with a career, pretty much any career. And given that, perhaps you are best off returning to teaching NOW and getting OUT of this toxic relationship (or at least getting the financial power to have that option, which gives you a lot more negotiating power with him).

[lmonter]

Originally Posted by Denvergirlie

The $20K in credit card debt... belongs to the both of you, not just him.

Yup. MIL divorced FIL a few years ago. And is still paying off her student loans and FIL's maxed out credit cards. Oh, and you may want to check your own credit report just in case... if he opened up a credit card in his name without you knowing... Again, the IL's did screwy financial crud... And it's all community property if you're married.

[darien]

Originally Posted by SuzyLee

Honestly, in your position, I think it might be worth getting student loans if that is the only way to go to school. I say that from the perspective of getting your degree and then divorcing him ASAP, which in my shoes, I would do. Everything you post makes me think so more strongly.

Of course, one thing I do think you need to address is that you won't be able to FT homeschool with a career, pretty much any career. And given that, perhaps you are best off returning to teaching NOW and getting OUT of this toxic relationship (or at least getting the financial power to have that option, which gives you a lot more negotiating power with him).

I've definitely been considering the school then divorce option, for a few reasons.

I really love homeschooling, though, and so do my kids-- so that's high on my priorities. I wouldn't mind going back to teaching so much if I could have my kids there (I did this when my ds12 was young, and got free tuition for him ). My ds12 would get eaten alive at a public middle school, and my ds4 is the type of kid who would be asked to leave soon enough. : I wouldn't say homeschooling is a necessity for us, but it is a sanity saver!

[Emmeline II]

Perhaps you could try a financial planner; it may help to hear an evaluation of your finances from a third party.

I'd also find out what your legal obligation is to his debt and then get your name on everything so you can help manage it better .

[darien]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

Perhaps you could try a financial planner; it may help to hear an evaluation of your finances from a third party.

I'd also find out what your legal obligation is to his debt and then get your name on everything so you can help manage it better .

I don't know anything about money management except "Don't spend more than you have." :

How much does it cost to talk with a financial planner?

Where do I find out if his debts are legally mine?

How would getting my name on everything help me manage it better?

I'm planning on hashing out the finances with dp tomorrow night. It definitely won't be pretty, but I'm not sure how to make the conversation effective. Tips?