Paying for grad school-- help me brainstorm talking to dp - Page 2

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by darien

I don't know anything about money management except "Don't spend more than you have." :

How much does it cost to talk with a financial planner?

Not sure, but maybe someone here has.

Where do I find out if his debts are legally mine?

Not sure on this either; maybe a Family Law attorney? perhaps Legal Aid?

How would getting my name on everything help me manage it better?

On second thought, I don't think it would and I'd ask a lawyer before making any changes.

[Emmeline II]

http://weblinks.westlaw.com/result/Default.aspx?cite=UUID(NF3807480F4-2911DBA77EF-615FDB1AD60)&db=1000869&findtype=VQ&fn=_top&ifm=No tSet&rlt=CLID_FQRLT58324364022163&rp=%2FSearch%2Fd efault.wl&rs=WEBL9.02&service=Find&spa=DCC-1000&sr=TC&vr=2.0

It seems to me that you ARE responsible for his debt:

(2) A person's spouse or domestic partner and the property of a person's spouse or domestic partner shall not be liable because of any contract or tort by that person in which the spouse or domestic partner has not directly or indirectly participated, except that both spouses or domestic partners shall be liable on any debt, contract, or engagement entered into by either of them during their marriage or the term of the domestic partnership for necessaries for either of them or for their dependent children.

...but you may want to seek clarification of "necessaries": http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/n042.htm:

The term necessaries is not confined merely to what is requisite barely to support life, but includes many of the conveniences of refined society. It is a relative term, which must be applied to the circumstances and conditions of the parties. Ornaments and superfluities of dress, such as are usually worn by the party's rank and situation in life, have been classed among necessaries.

You should pull your free credit report: https://www.annualcreditreport.com/cra/index.jsp

An consider paying for a FICO score: http://www.myfico.com/Default.aspx

[ginger_rodgers]

Emmeline, responsibility for spouses' debts varies tremendously by state. I don't know which code that Westlaw page pulls from (the link doesn't work) but it has nothing to do with the state code here. There are big differences between community-property and other states, and differences within each subgroup.

In my state, consumer debts are private, not marital. Medical debt, on the other hand, is marital. The OP will need to consult her state's laws and talk to a (good) divorce lawyer to see how the laws are interpreted in her jurisdiction. Keep in mind, of course, that's liability in case of divorce. If there's no divorce, then the debt belongs entirely to the person who took it on, so long as it's not a joint account and there's no co-signer.

Incidentally, even in case of divorce, darien, the credit card people can't come after you for debt held entirely in his name. The cc companies don't care about divorces. So don't worry about that. If you divorce and the judge says part of his debt is yours, the cc company will still go after him alone, and he's entitled to go after you.

Finally, darien, given all that's going on, I would suggest holding off on the talk with him. It's going to devolve into screaming and ranting. Go find out what you're liable for in your state if you divorce, and then decide what you will do, and then do that. A negotiation with him is not necessary, given the pattern of irresponsibility.

[Emmeline II]

Originally Posted by ginger_rodgers

Emmeline, responsibility for spouses' debts varies tremendously by state.

The quote and the link are to the District of Columbia Code; she appears to live in DC.

I agree with consulting a lawyer and judging by the number of MDC members that are saddled with "marital" debt in their name only after divorce she may be better off leaving debts in his name only in his name only. Though I still think checking her credit report is a good idea.

[darien]

Originally Posted by Emmeline II

The quote and the link are to the District of Columbia Code; she appears to live in DC.

Actually, I live just outside DC, in Maryland.

Thank you both for the links and advice!

I can't hold out on the talk too long-- I have to register for classes or ask to delay entrance within the next week or two.

I think part of my problem all along is that I'm not angry enough at him. We have enough $ to live on (which is better than in the past), so I have a hard time getting alarmed that he's blowing our "extra" money. It's so stupid, but part of me feels like I shouldn't get bent out of shape (while the other parts all know I'm a wussy who likes to live in a dream world).

[D_McG]

Originally Posted by darien

Actually, I live just outside DC, in Maryland.

Thank you both for the links and advice!

I can't hold out on the talk too long-- I have to register for classes or ask to delay entrance within the next week or two.

I think part of my problem all along is that I'm not angry enough at him. We have enough $ to live on (which is better than in the past), so I have a hard time getting alarmed that he's blowing our "extra" money. It's so stupid, but part of me feels like I shouldn't get bent out of shape (while the other parts all know I'm a wussy who likes to live in a dream world).

But you DON'T have enough to live on. Not if you are 20k in debt (presuming this is not old debt.. but current debt). If you are spending $20k on credit cards then that says that you do not have enough to make ends meet and are supplementing your lifestyle w/credit cards.

(unless I missed a post and that is old debt).

[darien]

Originally Posted by D_McG

But you DON'T have enough to live on. Not if you are 20k in debt (presuming this is not old debt.. but current debt). If you are spending $20k on credit cards then that says that you do not have enough to make ends meet and are supplementing your lifestyle w/credit cards.

(unless I missed a post and that is old debt).

It is current debt, that my dp racked up all on his own. I am not spending above my means, but dp is-- which means, of course, that as a family, we are in debt.

What I meant was, because I wake up in the morning in a nice warm house, with food in the cupboards, it's hard to get furious at dp for squandering the money that should have become an emergency fund, or college fund, or retirement savings. Despite what dp might think, I'm not very good at holding grudges.

When I found out that dp had opened half a dozen cc accounts, and owed thousands of dollars, I was FURIOUS, told him the kids and I would leave if he didn't get his spending under control. And he has toned down the spending-- at least he had. Over $200 in music and movie downloads last month says he's definitely off the wagon.

Also, I'm terrified to leave him and have all that debt come crashing down. Worst case scenario is, of course, that he doesn't pay any child support, or give me any $ whatsoever. I don't think he'd do this, but....

I've been "accidentally" enabling him all along, by not complaining about his spending, by being frugal and working hard myself. : The money he makes pays our mortgage, insurance, and utilities. I work to pay for groceries, gas, clothes, and just about anything relating to the kids (classes, activities, outings, toys). I often end up paying "surprise" expenses like car repairs. And, anything that's for me, I pay for.

[darien]

So, I had the talk with dp. Results were mixed.

I feel weary just thinking about it, but I guess if y'all were kind enough to advise me, I should say how it turned out.

We went through the bills dp handles each month, with dp telling me what they cost. He didn't ask me a single question about the expenses I cover.

There should be a few hundred left over each month, but there never is. I thought (hoped) that this was generally because dp was working at paying off his cc's. He admitted, however, that he pays only a little over the minimum on his cc's, and that the excess money goes to his "toys and treats."

I read him the riot act for spending what should be family money on himself all the time. Asked him how he could do this, when we have no savings, no college fund, etc. He said "I'm selfish. I'll stop."

I said self-pity and empty promises were of no use, and pointed out to him that in our discussion of how/if I could get enough $ for school, he hadn't suggested a single idea that had to do with him changing or making any kind of sacrifice. :

Then he said, "You're right; if I have it, I'll spend it. I'm going to give you a check at the beginning of the month, and you can save it, or use it for the kids' activities, or whatever."

I said "Fine. How much?" He said $250, which is the amount his pay has increased, monthly, this year.

I'm not exactly satisfied with this. For one thing, that still leaves him in control of more of the "excess" money than we really need to fritter away. For another, once again, it leaves me in the position of having to be the grownup and take care of things.

And finally, since we literally have no savings, the only way we can afford for me to go to school is for me to put the tuition on my credit card and then use my monthly $250 to pay it off, or-- to set up a payment plan with the school, and use the monthly $250 to pay it off.

Savings or kids' activities my a$$.

[kdabbler]

Darien, I haven't read through the entire thread. But had to wonder, do we share dh's? Although mine does not smoke. His vice is his Starbucks and buying lunch out habit. I bring my lunch and hardly ever buy coffee. If I don't make it at home, I brew it at work.

Hmmm. What he spends in a month on Starbucks would equal the gym membership that I would desperately love to have at work.

ETA: Saw your post #28. Yeah, similar conversations at my house. $250 is a start. Perhaps ask him for $xxx more to be his money manager to pay towards his credit cards?

Please don't try and put your grad degree on a credit card. Perhaps you can defer your enrollment a year, take that $250 and put it towards a savings plan to pay for it? Otherwise, I would be worried the whole house of credit cards would fall.

[ginger_rodgers]

Darien,

If your dh has several ccs that he opened secretly, $20K on them, and money vanishing through the cracks, he has a real problem. Which means that you do too, and you and the kids need to get clear of it. Frankly, if I were you I'd also be extremely suspicious of the "I spent it on movies and CDs" business.

About the responsibility for debt: I don't think it's yours. You're not in a community-property state, your name is not attached, and the worst that can happen here is that if you divorce, the court goes boilerplate on you, throws his debt into the general financial picture, and you walk away with less in assets than you ought to have. With a good lawyer you might be able to avoid that. If you really want to find out whether his debts are affecting you, go look at your credit report. I'm betting you'll find no mention unless he's also taken out cards in your name. (Emmeline: when you hear women talking about how their credit got hit because of their husband's debt, scratch the surface and find out whose names were on the accounts. You're almost always going to find that there are joint accounts involved somewhere along the line.)

In any case, the creditors will not come after you for the money if your name wasn't on the application.

All that said...you have a couple of separate problems.

One, you've got a guy with a big spending problem, a lying problem, and possibly more. If you let this go on, or stick around for it, I guarantee it will get you into real trouble. He won't be able to paper it over with a big income forever.

Two, your big choice isn't between kids activities and school. It's between the comfortable house of cards you have now and security you make yourself. Making that security will almost certainly mean an end to homeschooling. But I can tell you, that financial situation of yours won't last with your husband spending like that, and I rather suspect you're going to find out something else is going on in there that will make it hard to stay. So if I were you, I'd be getting ready to make decent money.

Defer for a year if you must and get your house in order. Don't try to control him and his behavior -- you can't, anyway. Save the $250/mo for a lawyer in an account in your own name. If at the end of the year he's cleaned up, terrific, and you have a start on some savings. If not, you have money to do something with.

[Magpie1972]

I don't have a lot to add becasue DH & I have always maintained one account which I pay everything out of and that is what works for us... but i wanted to add this:

If you are serious about seperating, it is easier for a single Mom to get help with school than a wife in financial captivity. Plus, you would be given a larger chunk of his pay for child support than $250 a month.

[mnt_mommy]

IT IS FREE TO TALK TO A FINANCIAL PLANNER

The catch: Sometimes. Talk to one that gets paid on comission if you purchase from them. The product may cost a little more (life ins, health ins, mutual funds, ect), but at this point, who's to say you're buying?
Just get in there and talk to someone. Be clear on the fact that the planner gets paid by the products they sell. Verify this.
Down the line, for higher net worth individuals, this can be problematic bc their advice is biased to whom has the best commision rates. But at this point, Mutual Fund Company A paying your financial planner a kickback rather than Life Insurance Company B is not the worst thing. You need to look at some numbers and start thinking about retirement, and what your kids would do if they lost you (life ins).
If the numbers seem hokey, get second opinions. And third.
Good products don't evaporate, and if they agent gives good advice, they're probably not the only one in town giving it.

[darien]

Originally Posted by ginger_rodgers

Frankly, if I were you I'd also be extremely suspicious of the "I spent it on movies and CDs" business.

What do you think he's really doing with it? I know he really is buying himself movies, video games, and music-- also computer stuff, which I think is the real $$.


All that said...you have a couple of separate problems.

One, you've got a guy with a big spending problem, a lying problem, and possibly more. If you let this go on, or stick around for it, I guarantee it will get you into real trouble. He won't be able to paper it over with a big income forever.

Two, your big choice isn't between kids activities and school. It's between the comfortable house of cards you have now and security you make yourself. Making that security will almost certainly mean an end to homeschooling. But I can tell you, that financial situation of yours won't last with your husband spending like that, and I rather suspect you're going to find out something else is going on in there that will make it hard to stay. So if I were you, I'd be getting ready to make decent money.

I was trying to get ready to make decent money by going to school, but that obviously wasn't such a good plan.


Defer for a year if you must and get your house in order. Don't try to control him and his behavior -- you can't, anyway. Save the $250/mo for a lawyer in an account in your own name. If at the end of the year he's cleaned up, terrific, and you have a start on some savings. If not, you have money to do something with.

I may have to go back to doing childcare for a year. Don't really want to.

[darien]

I'm going to post a new thread with some numbers to see if I can get a further reality check/some advice. Y'all have been so helpful-- thank you! I could still use some more wisdom, hint, hint.