Structure vs control - is this a good preschool? SCARY UPDATE!

[Tigerle]

Hi all! I am new to this sub-forum (relatively new overall to mdc, actually) and so impressed with the knowledge and support here.
We have been looking at a Montessori preschool for our son who will be three in October and who is very unhappy at daycare. His development is very asynchronous (way ahead in language and fine motor, behind in gross motor and possibly socially, but the last bit is something we’ll try to find out more about from the DCP tomorrow). Also he is very sensitive to noise, doesn’t like wild play and seems to thrive on structure and lots of intellectual stimulation. Perfect Montessori fit, right?
Problem is, the one Montessori school within reach (we both woh, so our range is small) seems to be a bit over-structured to me.
I have heard from several parents who pulled their kids out because they felt the atmosphere to be oppressive and overly controlling. One told me that she felt their kids weren’t criminals and shouldn’t be treated as such, that they needed room to play the monkey or run around, and only got quieter and quieter at preschool and it worried her. Another (this is from hearsay) is a Montessori teacher and felt the method was applied wrong and turned the kids into joyless workers. One hasn’t called me back yet…
I have observed for a morning and the kids do seem a bit joyless to me – and so do the teachers! They seem very distanced and cool, and while they pay the kids lots of attention, they lack, dunno, something like warm-heartedness. Also, they push the children around physically a lot – gently, but more than I was comfortable with (and more than my little one would be comfortable with, I think), leading them to their chairs, turning her head back to the work when a very little one got distracted, holding her arms to push the broom when cleaning up.
During the talk after, I asked the head about this and she explained it was her habit to do so just with the special needs kids who needed this (they have one integrative class with one non-verbal kid, some sensory issues kids and one on the spectrum). I said I’d observed it in the typical class too and she said she’d ask her teachers about it. Also I asked about the distanced manner of the teachers and she explained it was the Montessori way. She was very open about her school not being the right fit for every child and some being better off in play-based environments and encourages lots more contact and observation to make sure. Not all of the teachers are qualified, by the way, just two or three out of seven, and the head is a Montessori lecturer herself.
Funny, I loved everything else about the school and I know my child likes structure, peace and quiet, but there IS something that doesn’t feel right to me. Am I biased from listening to others? Should I send my husband to do a observation and see what he thinks? Find more parents to talk to? Ask whether I can bring my child for an afternoon to see how he seems to feel? Observe in another Montessori further away that’s out of our range, just to get a better feel for whats Montessori and what isn’t? We only have until the end of march to decide (they might have a spot in May, otherwise it’s September) and I’m very conflicted.
Thoughts? I should add, by the way, we live in Europe, so US associations are no good to me as a source of information.

[BCFD]

Funny, I loved everything else about the school and I know my child likes structure, peace and quiet, but there IS something that doesn’t feel right to me. Am I biased from listening to others? Should I send my husband to do a observation and see what he thinks? Find more parents to talk to? Ask whether I can bring my child for an afternoon to see how he seems to feel? Observe in another Montessori further away that’s out of our range, just to get a better feel for whats Montessori and what isn’t? We only have until the end of march to decide (they might have a spot in May, otherwise it’s September) and I’m very conflicted.

Regardless of the type of school (Montessori, Waldorf, play based, home based, co-op, Sudbury, play based, etc.) you should FIRST listen to your gut instinct. When I started looking at M schools in our area (and we have a TON to choose from) I toured them all even if I knew I wouldn't drive that far, wait that long on a list, pay that much for tuition..... I found some schools very cold and unfriendly, some that were mediocre, and then the last school that I toured was perfect for my kids. I do think you should send DH for his impressions and absolutely take your children for a test run at each school.

One of the teachers will know more about this, but affiliations are probably the same all over the world. Maybe?

[Lillianna]

Originally Posted by Tigerle

Should I send my husband to do a observation and see what he thinks? Find more parents to talk to? Ask whether I can bring my child for an afternoon to see how he seems to feel? Observe in another Montessori further away that’s out of our range, just to get a better feel for whats Montessori and what isn’t?

I think these are all great ideas so you can get a better feel for the school. Your son does seem like a perfect fit for Montessori.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Tigerle

turning her head back to the work when a very little one got distracted,

This part really sounds unMontessori to me, and just generally bothersome. I'd keep looking.

Your DS does sound like Montessori would be perfect for him, but it needs to be a good Montessori.

[Tigerle]

Thank you for your thoughts!
I had two interesting conversations just yesterday - one with our DCP, one with a friend who'd pulled her child out.
The DCP sat down with us for a long talk about our little one's challenges. While they love having him because it is such a novel experience for them to have a child in the 0-3's classroom they can actually have lengthy discussions with, they have a hard time meeting his social and emotional needs - he loves doing artwork and participating in teacher-led activities, but as soon as free play starts and things get a little wilder, he complains about the noise and tries to talk them into letting him go into the bedroom or into the hall to be by himself. They do try to integrate him and get him to participate (and so do the other children; she said he's a kind child and the others do like him and want him to play, which is a relief) but he will be overwhelmed very soon. Also, he cannot cope with having one of the teachers leave his side and will have a meltdown - it's worse when he's been home sick for a time, so we're all hoping for spring... Sample conversation: Why are you going away? Teacher: I need to go to the bathroom. DS: Don't go! I don't want you to go away. Teacher: But I need to go pee. DS: But you don't have to go away for that. You could pee in your pants right here!
They are confident it'll get better again (it WAS better in fall, sickness does throw him back a lot, I've noticed) but she's said flat out she can't imagine him coping in their 3-6 classrooms by fall, which have 25 kids with 2 teachers, are play-based and are very noisy, and strongly recommends Montessori (well, really she recommended leaving him in their classroom till 3.5or so, but agreed he might need a lot more academic stimulation soon which they could not provide).
That kind of crossed out most possibilities for us really, because play-based, 25 kids, 2 teachers is basically every other program around. We have the big problem that we live in a small town right at (the equivalent of) a state line, and regulations prevent us from sending our child across the line to the public Montessori schools in the city, which are the only alternatives within acceptable distance (there is one more class across town but I hear it's oversubscribed, and they must give priority to their own district. I'll find out more). So while I'll ask if they'll let me observe anyway and whether there is any room for exceptions I really think this is it:.
In the afternoon, I talked to a neighbour I'm friendly with and who'd pulled her kid out. She feels the atmosphere in the school is due to the personality of the directress, who is extremely knowledgeable and committed to her school and genuinely loves children, but has a hard time showing it, and has a hard time letting other teachers show it too, as she imposes her personality on the rest of the team. That said, she felt her own daughter did thrive there initially and problems started only in the second year; possibly because this teacher cannot let kids' personalities grow so well either. She actually recommended trying it out for a year and just watching our little one very closely, and also recommended trying the IB Early Years program either later or right away, which has only 15 kids to a class, but a big emphasis on independent work and child-led academic stimulation. She said it's noisier than Motessori and initially her daughter had a hard time adjusting, but loved it soon.
Guess I'll need to talk to my husband now and talk him into observing (he really likes me to do the research by myself first) but I want his input - also he'll be the one doing the school run next year, so if we're looking at somwhere a lot further away he'll have to square that with his working hours.
Thank you for your attention for what was really a lengthy rant now! Any more thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
I'll sort of cross post this in the Gifted forum, too.

[Aufilia]

Originally Posted by Tigerle

Thank you for your thoughts!
I had two interesting conversations just yesterday - one with our DCP, one with a friend who'd pulled her child out.
The DCP sat down with us for a long talk about our little one's challenges. While they love having him because it is such a novel experience for them to have a child in the 0-3's classroom they can actually have lengthy discussions with, they have a hard time meeting his social and emotional needs - he loves doing artwork and participating in teacher-led activities, but as soon as free play starts and things get a little wilder, he complains about the noise and tries to talk them into letting him go into the bedroom or into the hall to be by himself.

Your DS sounds a bit like my DD. She's behind in gross motor (like 9 months behind) but on track in fine motor and very far ahead in language (she was evaluated at the 99th% for her age). She also has some sensory processing issues and cannot handle loud, busy areas. During outdoor play at school she typically stands with the teacher or plays in the sandbox, but doesn't run around with the other kids. She is afraid of being bumped or pushed, as well.

Anyhow, she had a terrible time in play-based preschool but has done quite well in Montessori. She entered her school last fall and at first she had a really tough time with the "circle time" activities, but after 5 or 6 months is doing much better. She loves the quiet working time, and the independence encouraged in Montessori is just right for her.

The school you're describing sounds kind of iffy. DD, for one, would NOT like teachers physically touching her--it would set off her sensory issues big time. Unfriendly teachers would be a big 'no' for me, too.

I agree with the PP's that you might observe a few other Montessori schools so you have something to compare with. Keep in mind that any school can call itself "Montessori" even if it doesn't really follow the method, so the name doesn't guarantee it's a good school.

[Tigerle]

A friend put me in touch with the Montessori-trained elementary teacher who'd pulled her child out after a year. I started out the phone call with "hi you don't know me I'm the friend of x and she suggested..." and we ended up talking for three hours, only finishing up reluctantly when we realized it was past 11 pm. I want to meet her!
She told me some more stories about the Montessori school which clinched the issue.

They left a child who wouldn't finish lunch sitting in front of their plate till 4. They left her little boy sitting in front of pearls someone else had spilled for 2.5. hours because he wouldn't pick them up.
Children would hide under tables, behind bushes, in the toilet to escape the relentless observation. She said she knows of some who are in therapy after spending time in this school.
Her little boy, who is a chatty child, would spend hours at the snack table because it was the only place where he was allowed to talk. (She asked him "but you couldn't be eating all this time?" He replied: I only took tiny little bites, mama!" I told her her little boy would go far!)
She said none of these incidents or concerns are in anyway secret or in dispute, they have been discussed at PTA meetings, with teachers, with the head. The head defended them as the Montessori way. The teachers would complain about her dominance, but defend themselves with the job market (one admitted to hiding leftover food from the head so children wouldn't get punished). People at the local Montessori association would just shrug. The parents would moan and complain but not pull their children out - to this day she is in disbelief about this! She thinks (like the other friend) that very young children seemed to cope better and that the head was very kind as long as they weren't testing limits, which lulls parents at first. Also, she has this amazing depth of theoretical knowledge and commitment which comes across very well when dealing with grown-ups - we agreed that her enthusiasm for her own program seems real - and lulls parents by telling them that their children are gifted if they can cope with the program and should leave if they cannot. Also, there is almost a cult-like situation going on with those parents who defend her whole-heartedly - and she's got the minister of the parish (it's a Lutheran school) behind her as well, so she doesn't have to face up to criticism.

She felt guilty about not noticing sooner (the mother I was talking to I mean) - but after all she is not alone. We agreed that the head had serious control issues going on, that the situation was sick but that, as all the responsible people seems to be perfectly aware of the situation, as long as people sent their children nothing would change.

I'm not really so good with my gut (my head works much better) but boy am I glad it tipped me off here. It was the look on one mother's face as she told me about her daughter that made me keep researching this, I realize now. Having written all this down it's been keeping me occupied all morning now just how scary the situation is for the kids who ended up in this school. I really feel horrible for them all and I am wondering whether there is any authority left to tip off, if the Montessori association and the church don’t seem to care.

Thank you for listening! I feel sad because the only other school with a Montessori class is just to far away, so I will have to research play-based options now and bow out of the Montessori forum for the time being - maybe I will be back for first grade, as the Montessori elementary has a much better reputation!