or Connect
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Childhood and Beyond › Gentle Discipline › an epidemic of undiagnosed ND'ed children?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

an epidemic of undiagnosed ND'ed children? - Page 3

post #41 of 65
I really hope everyone who thinks that the only reason children ever behave like this is because of uninvolved parenting someday has a wonderful, amazing, intense, high-needs, sensory-seeking child. And then comes back to this thread and edits their posts.

~Loving my sweet, often-well behaved, dogpile-wrestling furniture-scaling excitedly-screaming hair-biting sword-fighting two year old, and his younger brother the Mellowest Baby Ever.
post #42 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by FullMetalMom View Post
I have to say that I exhibited many of those traits when I was a child, I believe not because I was nd'ed but because I was angry I did not have consistent caregiving from my parents for most of my childhood. I was in daycare from the time I was 1 year old to 13 and I was a very angry child. If parent who have their kids in daycare all week do not really step up during the off hours, a child can really feel abandoned and uncared for (no matter how good the dcp is). Some people underestimate how much a child REALLY needs to attach to someone and needs to be given a sense of worth. Just my :. My experience is one of the reasons I am dedicated to ap and have chosen to be a SAHM.
Right ON!

I just also wanted to make a comment to several of the posters who have sounded condescending toward the OP. I work with a group of underprivleged kids for 1 hour one night per week and I tell you it is HARD. These kids are ages 7-12 and exhibit ALL of the traits in the OP's list for the entire hour - yes even at age 10, climbing on furniture, screaming, etc.. They are normal kids for the most part, but just very needy and have not yet learned the skills or manners we expect from kids that age. If I had to deal with just 4 of them every day I would pack up and move to a deserted island. Raising kids right seems to be less and less common these days when it is easier to set them in front of a tv or video game. Or in the case I saw earlier this week at the park, let them fend for themselves - I saw an 18 month old boy wandering around the park alone - with both his parents sitting on the park bench watching from afar. He was the saddest most lonely little boy I had ever seen in my life - both parents present, but not really interacting with him at all. He was much too young to enjoy any of the park equipment safely and did not know how to go about it even if he could. This is more and more what I see and it saddens me deeply.
post #43 of 65
I just happened on this thread this morning. The behaviour you describe is how my daughter has been for the last week...and I've been trying so hard to figure out what is causing it. It started around the time (3 or 4 weeks ago) when I changed our childcare situation, and has been getting progressively worse. I have been trying to figure out if it's an emotional or physical thing...perhaps it's both. I am a sensitive person, and I'm thinking that maybe she's got some similar sensitivities, possibly to industrial cleaners they use, or food that she eats there. Or maybe she is modelling behaviour she sees there, in which case, she needs to stop going there.

In the last several days she has hit me a lot. She never hit anyone ever until about 2 weeks ago. She actually hit me 3 times yesterday morning before she even properly woke up. Bizarre, and totally unlike the child I know. Out of control. I'm going to try to change our arrangement back, and use supplements to help her get back to herself.

It's interesting to me that you frame it as neurologically damaged...the way I've thought about it is that kids today are much more sensitive, and it's part of our evolution.

Amy
post #44 of 65
IMO, these behaviors often occur when a child is stressed and in fear. They react this way because it is the best they can do. When a child is dis-regulated like that, the parent needs to focus on the child and their relationship and not the specific behavior. Find out what is the reason for the acting out and address that, rather. If your DD (you don't say how old she is) is in a new daycare she is likely afraid, missing you and her previous dcp, and is feeling abandoned in a strange place. However, these negative behaviors can also be brought on by food intolerances, and by artificial food additives, so I would also check out what the daycare has been feeding her.
post #45 of 65
Modern children are empowered, when compared to children of previous generations. "Speak only when spoken to" "Children should be seen and not heard", heck kids used to not be allowed to eat dinner untill the parents had finished. It is a different world, and we should expect our children to be different too.

Now, they are encouraged to speak, encouraged to make decisions, generally encouraged to seek independance early and often. Do you think people were hung up about "speech delays" when children were openly beaten if they spoke out of turn?

We ask a lot of our children (as a society), we expect them to be significantly more independant and socially resilient than previous generations did. And as a result... They are. And that is where the disconnect happens.

We can't ask them to make all of their own decisions AND obey us at the same time, that just isn't possible, and it isn't a reasonable expectation.

I do not find most of the traits listed to be negative ones, just inconvenient to someone who has priorities that are not in-line with those that were set by the child, who has been charged with the task of setting his own priorities.

I don't think necessarily that children have changed, I think that what we ask of them has changed, but what we expect of them has not, and I find that unrealistic.
post #46 of 65
I am sorry I disagree with you. Children that act that way are in distress -- I am not saying this caused by bad parenting (though it can be the case). Whatever the era, those behaviors are NOT "normal" behaviors for happy, non-stressed children.
post #47 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by uccomama View Post
I am sorry I disagree with you. Children that act that way are in distress -- I am not saying this caused by bad parenting (though it can be the case). Whatever the era, those behaviors are NOT "normal" behaviors for happy, non-stressed children.
Things on the list based on external perception, or preconcieved notions about how children should act. Many would neither be surprising nor unacceptable if an adult did them. I am saying that children are treated a lot more like adults in many respects than they once were, and they are acting like adults too (at least as far as they are capable), but our expectations of obedience, following, attentiveness to authority, apropriate behavior, etc have not changed nearly as much as their environment has.

If you wrote this list about teenagers would you think the teenagers must be damaged? What if you wrote it about 21 year-olds? 40 year-olds? What I am saying is these are not surprising behaviors, they are surprising strikes out at independance from beings who are not "supposed" to be like that.

Quote:
Children who often flat-out ignore adults and other children when spoken to.

Children who refuse to follow simple instructions.

Children who stare off into space as though the world around them is much too boring to take notice.

Children who, rather than use appropriately, stand on, jump on, roll their faces on and lick furniture (such as sofas, chairs, or coffee tables.)

Children who seem panicky and unhappy.

Children who scream and SCREECH at the top of their lungs when something doesn't exactly go their way. No compromising. Constant misery.

Children who are old enough to follow basic safety rules, but go out of their way to break them when adult eyes are not looking.
Bolded all the assumptions that are true for the beholder, not necessarily for the child, or are subjective.
post #48 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by uccomama View Post
Whatever the era, those behaviors are NOT "normal" behaviors for happy, non-stressed children.
Really?
It's not normal for happy children to play by 'wrestling, punching, kicking, yelling, hitting, pressing their bodies into the personal space of other children'?

Or to 'stand on, jump on, roll their faces on and lick furniture'?

Because those really seem like normal behaviors for exuberent, happy, physical children to me.
post #49 of 65
people often call my son one of the happiest children they have ever met, despite his sensory and social problems.And although he experiences stresses during times of frustration, that may occur more frequently because of his special needs, over all and at other times he is not stressed either.
post #50 of 65
I'm coming late to this thread, but I just wanted to say that I think "neurologically damaged" is a terrible term to appy to somebody's child, especially if you do not know the full medical history.

Medical science does not know the causes of autism or ADHD and there are probably multiple causes for these disorders. Vaccines or other environmental factors may play a role in the disorder for some children, but definately not for all.

My son was born with autism. He has special challenges and amazing gifts as a result. He has many of the behaviors listed in the OP. He is a very happy, attached, loving child. And he is certainly not "damaged".
post #51 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaggyDaddy View Post
Things on the list based on external perception, or preconcieved notions about how children should act. Many would neither be surprising nor unacceptable if an adult did them. I am saying that children are treated a lot more like adults in many respects than they once were, and they are acting like adults too (at least as far as they are capable), but our expectations of obedience, following, attentiveness to authority, apropriate behavior, etc have not changed nearly as much as their environment has.

If you wrote this list about teenagers would you think the teenagers must be damaged? What if you wrote it about 21 year-olds? 40 year-olds? What I am saying is these are not surprising behaviors, they are surprising strikes out at independance from beings who are not "supposed" to be like that. Bolded all the assumptions that are true for the beholder, not necessarily for the child, or are subjective.

First I didn't day they were damaged, I said they were dis-regulated, very different. A dis-regulated person is in stress, be it from neurological damage, fear, food intolerances etc. Any child (teen or adult for that matter) who acts "badly" will be dis-regulated however it occurred. It is all a matter of degree. Adults are not paragons of virtue, they display a great deal of so-called inappropriate behavior, lying, cheating, violence and on and on. But one thing I am almost certain, no truly happy (regulated) person acts in the above way. I actually think you should ignore the behavior as it is merely a symptom and work on building loving relationships so that children feel safe, then they probably don't need to exhibit some of these behaviors. If they do, give them a break, love them and ensure they know this above all else, they are not bad. I do not hold my children to a higher standard than I hold myself. I know without doubt I am far from perfection, so I certainly don't expect it of them. I realize I am lucky, my children are for the most part regulated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by prothyraia
Really?
It's not normal for happy children to play by 'wrestling, punching, kicking, yelling, hitting, pressing their bodies into the personal space of other children'?

Or to 'stand on, jump on, roll their faces on and lick furniture'?

Because those really seem like normal behaviors for exuberent, happy, physical children to me.
As I said above, it is all about degree. Wrestling, punching, kicking, yelling, hitting, pressing bodies into personal space of others is a sign of a dis-regulated child who probably needs some help, especially if the person he/she is doing this too doesn't want it. Standing on, jumping on, rolling faces on and licking furniture is the same thing. These actions are often done by a child to self-calm, ie they are dis-regulated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy
people often call my son one of the happiest children they have ever met, despite his sensory and social problems.And although he experiences stresses during times of frustration, that may occur more frequently because of his special needs, over all and at other times he is not stressed either.
When he acts out he is not in a regulated state of being, but that doesn't mean to say he isn't doing the best he can in the moment.
post #52 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by uccomama View Post
As I said above, it is all about degree. Wrestling, punching, kicking, yelling, hitting, pressing bodies into personal space of others is a sign of a dis-regulated child who probably needs some help, especially if the person he/she is doing this too doesn't want it. Standing on, jumping on, rolling faces on and licking furniture is the same thing. These actions are often done by a child to self-calm, ie they are dis-regulated.
I'm pretty sure my son does those things because they're fun, not to self-calm Jumping on the couch is fun. Wrestling is fun. Climbing on people and furniture is fun. Yelling at the top of your lungs is fun. He does these things when he is happy and excited- not when he's upset or angry of frustrated (well, the yelling he still does but it's a different yell :P).

He's obviously not allowed to play this way if the other person doesn't want to participate, but other than that, I don't see how being a very physically engaged child is a bad thing. Joyfully running over to your cousins and hugging them so hard you knock them over and everyone ends up in a squirming giggling pile on the floor with each child trying to get to wrestle their way to the top is not "disregulation", it's childhood.
post #53 of 65
regulated by *whose* standards? sometimes he does these things while he is in a good mood. I know the dr's want to say his body is "dis regulated" but that just really means his body doesn't work the way the next child does.

if you want to call it dis regulation though, that is fine. I have no problem with that, my only problem is with the assumption that the parents caused this dis regulation with bad parenting. But if its because of "bad parenting" then I guess my vaccinating him was bad parenting since what is what caused him to be this way. In my eyes, I do think I made a bad choice by vaccinating my child, but I don't see it as bad parenting in the sense of lack of discipline/structure/attachment that caused it.
post #54 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by prothyraia View Post
I'm pretty sure my son does those things because they're fun, not to self-calm Jumping on the couch is fun. Wrestling is fun. Climbing on people and furniture is fun. Yelling at the top of your lungs is fun. He does these things when he is happy and excited- not when he's upset or angry of frustrated (well, the yelling he still does but it's a different yell :P).

He's obviously not allowed to play this way if the other person doesn't want to participate, but other than that, I don't see how being a very physically engaged child is a bad thing. Joyfully running over to your cousins and hugging them so hard you knock them over and everyone ends up in a squirming giggling pile on the floor with each child trying to get to wrestle their way to the top is not "disregulation", it's childhood.
Okay, I realize many children do this, and they are all different. Can he stop when asked? If not think the issue would be impulse control. It can be dis-regulation. All dis-regulation is when they get to a state when they no long in control of their emotions. The thing is also, we all have our own agendas, and comfort zones, if you are cool with your child being very physical with others that's fine, personally, I would prefer my child not to to constantly wrestling, hitting, punching, hugging so hard that another child is knocked over, but then neither would he want that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by super Glue Mommy
regulated by *whose* standards? sometimes he does these things while he is in a good mood. I know the dr's want to say his body is "dis regulated" but that just really means his body doesn't work the way the next child does.

if you want to call it dis regulation though, that is fine. I have no problem with that, my only problem is with the assumption that the parents caused this dis regulation with bad parenting. But if its because of "bad parenting" then I guess my vaccinating him was bad parenting since what is what caused him to be this way. In my eyes, I do think I made a bad choice by vaccinating my child, but I don't see it as bad parenting in the sense of lack of discipline/structure/attachment that caused it.
I am using the term in the way Helen Forbes does in her books Beyond Consequences, Logic and Control and it really refers to the behaviors that the OP stated in her post. These are all behaviors indicative of a child that is emotionally dis-regulated. It doesn't have to be because of bad parenting, but can be obviously, ie a child that feels unloved, unworthy, abandoned, etc. This is obviously not the case with your child who was neurologically damaged by vaccines.
post #55 of 65
and so, it is also possible this is the case with some of the children mentioned in the original post. or some children we encounter in real life, that some of the members here apparently call "brats"

based on your question "can he stopped when asked" posed to proth, it seems we are not dealing with different agendas but different philospophies, which is a much harder bridge to gap the understanding.

It also does not mean one parent is okay with a child hitting/wrestling/punching etc (though some may be) or that because they are okay with that is why their agenda differes from yours.
post #56 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy View Post
and so, it is also possible this is the case with some of the children mentioned in the original post. or some children we encounter in real life, that some of the members here apparently call "brats"

based on your question "can he stopped when asked" posed to proth, it seems we are not dealing with different agendas but different philospophies, which is a much harder bridge to gap the understanding.

It also does not mean one parent is okay with a child hitting/wrestling/punching etc (though some may be) or that because they are okay with that is why their agenda differes from yours.
I am not making myself clear. I am never okay with my children hitting other children. But if they do, I wouldn't focus on the hitting, but on what is causing the hitting behavior within the child. And I wouldn't even try to address that immediately, my first task would be to calm myself and allow them the safe space to regulate their emotions. My only philosophy on parenting is ensuring my child knows they are loved above all and that they know that they are safe and their needs will always be met. That they are not bad, even though they may behave "badly" sometimes. As for the "agenda", we all have needs (or agendas), ie I need to get out of the house on time, I don't want my child to hurt or be violent towards another child, I want my child to do their homework, eat healthy food, etc but none of those needs (agendas) are my children's, they just want to play. I will never expect a child to take care of my needs (agendas) that is not their responsibility, at least not until they are over 25 and have fully functioning frontal lobes. Does that make it clearer?
post #57 of 65
I guess my dd is ND, stressed, and poorly parented. She at least sometimes meets everything on the list. Except for the safety rule thing. She's pretty good about that. I mean, she doesn't do the rest constantly, but she's a wild little girl and high needs and sensory seeking and full of energy. And she's also a drama queen, so although she really is a very happy girl when she's in her theatric mode, she might very well seem unhappy to outsiders. Until three seconds later when her attention shifts and she starts giggling again.
post #58 of 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by uccomama View Post
I am not making myself clear. I am never okay with my children hitting other children. But if they do, I wouldn't focus on the hitting, but on what is causing the hitting behavior within the child. And I wouldn't even try to address that immediately, my first task would be to calm myself and allow them the safe space to regulate their emotions. My only philosophy on parenting is ensuring my child knows they are loved above all and that they know that they are safe and their needs will always be met. That they are not bad, even though they may behave "badly" sometimes. As for the "agenda", we all have needs (or agendas), ie I need to get out of the house on time, I don't want my child to hurt or be violent towards another child, I want my child to do their homework, eat healthy food, etc but none of those needs (agendas) are my children's, they just want to play. I will never expect a child to take care of my needs (agendas) that is not their responsibility, at least not until they are over 25 and have fully functioning frontal lobes. Does that make it clearer?
I think you were clear the first time. I also am never okay with my children hitting other children. I also resolve it (same was as you do). and yes we all have needs and agendas - including our children. I just don't think that is the issue at hand. I am not speaking for proth, but I could have written her post, and had I written it it would not have meant I don't care if my children hurt others - it would just mean that I understand it doesn't mean there is something "wrong" with my child or that they are "parented poorly" or that they are "brats" (and not saying you said that either) but I think you were clear, perhaps I am the one who was not clear.
post #59 of 65
I certainly don't think children are brats, as I have said ad nauseam, they are doing the best they can with what they have.

Here is an example of a dis-regulated child and hitting. This happened at DS's school, which does not punish children, they are using the Beyond Consequences model. A 2nd grader hit another kid. She was in meltdown, so was given some time and space to cool down. A mother of another child, who happens to be a counselor/therapist who utilizes BC in her practice was there, so she sat with the child so that she wasn't alone and didn't feel punished or bad, she didn't try and calm her or engage her in conversation, let alone address the hitting. The child was crying, and shouting, then suddenly she blurted out, "I don't want to get a shot!". It turns out she was going in for a tetanus shot the next day and she was very, very scared about it (smart kid ), once she had let this out, she calmed quickly, returned to the classroom and had a great rest of the day.

And to those that think I am blaming parents, this couldn't be farther from the truth, because I think that parents do the best they can too. But I think we need to be honest here and own up to our less than stellar moments, and see it for what it is -- expecting our children to take care of our needs. I for one, hate that I lose my cool at my kids sometimes, that I allow myself to become dis-regulated. But I always admit it, and apologize for it.
post #60 of 65
i know you didnt say that I didn't find what you said nasty in any way by the way, in fact that was why I replied to it. I don''t think I could have replied nicely to some of the comments in this thread lol.

It's not that im in disagreement with what you are saying - actually so far there isnt anything in this thread that you have said that stands out to me that I directly disagree with. I'm sorry if it seemed that way by me corresponding with you here. I think the example you gave is great, thats how we would handle it, I dont use the term dis-regulated but I have that same overall understanding. It's just my experience, from having a child with special needs, that sometimes that is NOT the case. Of course, SPD is in a sense "dis-regulation", but in the context we are talking about here, about whether or not a child may have a special need, the reality is that yes, sometimes its special needs. it may still be disregulation - that disregulation can be caused by special needs, poor parenting, or just something going on in their life that is no ones fault - such as the example you gave above.

having ASD with a sensory processing disorder is not entirely the same as disregulation though, IMO. it's who the child is. Yes, the SPD is disregulation - but even when the child is "regulated" you still see some of these behaviors. Many parents of autistic children will tell you that it doesnt mean there is something "wrong" with their child. Their child is different - and in beautiful way they would not change for the world.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Gentle Discipline
Mothering › Mothering Forums › Childhood and Beyond › Gentle Discipline › an epidemic of undiagnosed ND'ed children?