I am just at a loss. - Page 6

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

It may have worked - but being patient may have worked as well. Most adults eventually act like adults - and do so because they want to - and many do it without being dealt with in a tough love sort of way.

Perhaps that's why we have different responses to the OP. I've known far too many 20-somethings and 30-somethings who don't act like adults, and never have - and never needed to.

[Theoretica]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

Snort. Really now yourself.

I will say it plainly: there is a possibility that if the OP's son owes oodles of money to her - it might be too disheartenning and add to his lack of desire to get a job.

Moreover, I think him seeing that working= spending money (and he won't have to beg or bug mom for his WoW) could be very empowering for the OP's son.

I think the way to help him get and keep a job is to lay off the debt repayments for awhile, or go at it gently.

PS. The fact that familes can survive on meager wages is irrelevant. The 19 year old does not have children to support - does he? Apples to oranges.

I don't think disrespecting your mother's expectations when you are 19 and capable of self sufficiency is acceptable. AND he's lazing around while she's stuck paying for karate he doesn't go to. AND he's contributing around the house only if he's paid. Why is it that HER feelings and boundaries and expecations are nullified in lieu of HIS supposed right to be a lazy bum? I'm not saying she should do anything punitive, but it is absolutely ok for her to set a clear boundary and enforce it immediately. He's taking advantage of her quite a bit. This has been going on for a YEAR. Not a few weeks...and she's made it abundantly clear what her expectations are.

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Perhaps that's why we have different responses to the OP. I've known far too many 20-somethings and 30-somethings who don't act like adults, and never have - and never needed to.

Yes. Exactly.

[~PurityLake~]

Originally Posted by Theoretica

In fact, at $7 an hour for only 30 hours a week he'd be making 200 a week, or 800 a month. That's a few hundred left over after rent to catch up on bills and have some spending money. Make it 40 a week and he'd bring in another 320 a month.

You forgot to subtract taxes.

[choli]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

It may have worked - but being patient may have worked as well. Most adults eventually act like adults - and do so because they want to - and many do it without being dealt with in a tough love sort of way.

Spend a little time reading in Parents as Partners - it will quickly disabuse you of that notion.

[Theoretica]

Originally Posted by ~Purity♥Lake~

You forgot to subtract taxes.

Well, I rounded down from 210 a week because of that, but chances are he'd end up with a refund anyways, especially since his parents can clearly claim him as a dependent.

[Theoretica]

Originally Posted by choli

Spend a little time reading in Parents as Partners - it will quickly disabuse you of that notion.

Very true...VERY true.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Perhaps that's why we have different responses to the OP. I've known far too many 20-somethings and 30-somethings who don't act like adults, and never have - and never needed to.

I think you might have hit the nail on the head.

Most people I know do eventually act like adults - in that they are responsible for their own finances and choices.

The only part I disagree with is the last words...."needed to". I don't think a person has to "need to" become an adult to be one. I think it is a natural progression, and most people want to be an adult. I would still stand by my earlier assertion that wht the OP's son needs is time - being 19 and coasting is not at all abnormal in my opinion. If it turns out he is one of those people who "needs" ultimatiums, etc, well - that isn't something to be determined at 19 when there is an excellent chance he will come out of it on his. I would certainly state my (reasonable and achievable) boundaries: "you live here - you get to contribute financially and do some chores" - but I would not go all militant on him.

I am not completely anti-tough love. I tried to look up tough love to get some stats on how effective it was and got nowhere. What I did notice what that almost all references to tough love were in relation to drug addiction or serious (criminal) behavioural issues - none of which the OP's son has displayed.

Peace,

kathy

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

Most people I know do eventually act like adults - in that they are responsible for their own finances and choices.

The only part I disagree with is the last words...."needed to". I don't think a person has to "need to" become an adult to be one. I think it is a natural progression, and most people want to be an adult.

I know all kinds of people who have no desire to be adults at all, unless they get the rights and privileges, but not the responsibilities. While I realize that "people I know" is hardly a representative sample, I don't believe that "most" people want the responsibilities of adulthood. Heck - a lot of the time I don't want them, but I do understand that they're the flipside of having the rights. And, fwiw, of the people whose background I know, none of the ones who weren't expected to behave like adults behave like adults - none of them.

I would still stand by my earlier assertion that wht the OP's son needs is time - being 19 and coasting is not at all abnormal in my opinion.

Again, I guess we just disagree. I think a 19 year old coasting, especially to the extent describe in the OP is seriously abnormal. In fact, I've only ever known two who did. And, while I'm not saying this is how the OP's son will end up, one of them is now a completely broke SAHM (her ex has been generous with child support, but he has no work right now - both industries he has experience in have dried up to a great extent, at least around here), whose approach to childrearing would have to be seen to be believed (at least her teenage son probably won't be like her, as he's already taking on a fair whack of responsibilities that should be on her shoulders). The other one is my ex - and he's crackhead, who has lived on the streets and gone into detox when he thinks he might die, and gone back out on the streets, etc. multiple times over the last 8 years...and occasionally robbed a house or two when he can't afford his crack. He's clean, at least for now, and still can't be bothered to so much as call his son (that might be hard)...and still feels that he was treated unfairly when he got fired from his last job (the one where he embezzled a couple grand on the company credit card, and disappeared for three days with a truck full of a customer's furniture).

I'm very, very nervous when I hear about people who are coasting...and I very rarely hear of one who is coasting to this extent. Even I wasn't this bad...and I was bad.

I would certainly state my (reasonable and achievable) boundaries: "you live here - you get to contribute financially and do some chores" - but I would not go all militant on him.

I guess I'm just wondering what you'd do when the boundaries are ignored. I'm not clear from the OP's posts - maybe she's been okay with this - but it doesn't seem like being expected to pay rent has made any impact. I just don't see how boundaries mean anything if they're not being enforced, or how you think the boundaries should be enforced.

What I did notice what that almost all references to tough love were in relation to drug addiction or serious (criminal) behavioural issues - none of which the OP's son has displayed.

If WoW is as big an issue here as it appears to be, the question of whether drug addiction is at play or not is almost irrelevant. True videogame addiction is pretty close to being equally psychologically damaging, even if it avoids the physical impact of drugs.

[choli]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

If WoW is as big an issue here as it appears to be, the question of whether drug addiction is at play or not is almost irrelevant. True videogame addiction is pretty close to being equally psychologically damaging, even if it avoids the physical impact of drugs.

This is probably very true. What happens if a videogame addict is forced to go "cold turkey"? Does anyone here have any experience of that?

[~PurityLake~]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

If WoW is as big an issue here as it appears to be, the question of whether drug addiction is at play or not is almost irrelevant. True videogame addiction is pretty close to being equally psychologically damaging, even if it avoids the physical impact of drugs.

:

Originally Posted by choli

This is probably very true. What happens if a video game addict is forced to go "cold turkey"? Does anyone here have any experience of that?

Depression, anger, lack of direction, lethargy or replacing it with another addiction.

[ananas]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

He doesn't sound that bad:

Seriously - he is not addicted to drugs, hanging out with criminals or being abusive. He is simply coasting a bit. He is 19, not 35. Coasting is OK.


I think early adulthood can be difficult for some people. There is a lot of pressure to get a job, go to school, do something - and it can be hard on people who do not know what they want (or - they do know what they want (WOW), but it is not acceptable to those who love them). My youngest sister struggled with coasting during early adulthood - she did come out of it - but not until she was about 23.

I would probably pay for the next batch of WOW. After that I would ask him to come up with half the cost, and then, perhaps, the whole thing. I think it is often easier (and perhaps healthier) for children and young adults to be slowly weaned of financial "help". I say this as someone who's mommy did pay for her Cable TV at 19 - and yet I have been completely financially independant for many years now.

I agree with this entire post. Everyone needs transition time to become well-adjusted adults.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

If WoW is as big an issue here as it appears to be, the question of whether drug addiction is at play or not is almost irrelevant. True videogame addiction is pretty close to being equally psychologically damaging, even if it avoids the physical impact of drugs.

I think it is different from drug addiction - as drug addiction is physically dangerous and can get one in trouble with the law.

I am not downplaying Wow addiction - I hear that it is affecting marriages on this forum. Were this a man with children - I would be :heck yeah, he needs an intervention. He is not upholding his end of his reposnsibilites due to gaming. But the thing is.....he does not have children he is neglecting. I tend to think people are entitled to their addictions, even if they are not good for them, as long as there are no kids involved.

This does not mean the Op shouldn't communicate her concerns, nor does it mean she shouldn't impose boundaries ("I am not paying for it") -but it does mean, to me at least, that drastic actions (or "tough love" - gad, don't like the term but I cannot think of a better one) are not appropriate.

Kathy

[jeevee3]

I am new here and have been reading lots of posts in lots of different forums. I am surprised at how passionately people offer advice who no experience or anything even close to experience in the situation that's being described. Those of you who are arguing most for "this or that" dont even have teenagers?!?
My 15 year old is still a child, yes, but fully capable of understanding what is expected of him. When he doesn't follow through with something, it is because he chose to not follow through, not becaue he is still too young or immature to fully understand what I said. And for those of you that are planning on letting your 19 year old "loaf around" for a year once they get out of high school cause you think they need time to think, or "find themselves" .... good luck with that. Seems to be that's only teaching a person that its ok to not have a plan, or it's ok to expect the whole world to just cater to them while they "find themselves" Geez, people, 19 is not the same as 9!

To the person that posted the problem...
I think that if he's that stuck into the game world, he's being kept from living his REAL life to the fullest. Lots of people can easily get sucked into that, whether it's gaming or just spending all day on online posting forums. I say get rid of the WoW and he'll find he suddenly has lots of free time that he will just naturally fill with other more productive activities.
But there's nothing wrong with letting him know you're there for him. You just have to be more clear about how you are there for him, and how much you are willing to spend in order to be there for him.

[~PurityLake~]

Originally Posted by jeevee3

I am new here and have been reading lots of posts in lots of different forums.

Welcome to MDC!

Originally Posted by jeevee3

I am surprised at how passionately people offer advice who no experience or anything even close to experience in the situation that's being described. Those of you who are arguing most for "this or that do not even have teenagers?!?

Keep in mind that we were all teenagers and remember what did or did not work for us.

Also, I've been pretty passionate about a lot of things in my life, even before the experience.

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

I think it is different from drug addiction - as drug addiction is physically dangerous and can get one in trouble with the law.

I am not downplaying Wow addiction - I hear that it is affecting marriages on this forum. Were this a man with children - I would be :heck yeah, he needs an intervention. He is not upholding his end of his reposnsibilites due to gaming. But the thing is.....he does not have children he is neglecting. I tend to think people are entitled to their addictions, even if they are not good for them, as long as there are no kids involved.

I absolutely disagree. If he were living on his own, and prepared to deal with not eating, because he was too busy WoWing to cook, or living in a pit, because he was too busy WoWing to clean, or becoming homeless, because he was too busy WoWing to earn any money, that's one thing. In that case, he's the one dealing with the consequences of the addiction he's "entitled" to. In this case, he's not - his mom is. Being "entitled to one's addictions" in this situation means being entitled to use his family has unpaid servants, and I don't believe that anyone is entitled to do that.

This does not mean the Op shouldn't communicate her concerns, nor does it mean she shouldn't impose boundaries ("I am not paying for it") -but it does mean, to me at least, that drastic actions (or "tough love" - gad, don't like the term but I cannot think of a better one) are not appropriate.

Okay - so she can impose a "I'm not paying for that" boundary about WoW. I think we're all agreed on that. What I'm not understanding is what other boundaries she can impose. Can she say she's not going to let him live there rent-free? Sure - but unless she's actually prepared to kick him out if he doesn't pay (eg. "tough love"), then there is no boundary. She's already stated that he "has" to pay rent, but he's not doing it. Where's the boundary?

[BedHead]

As far as I'm concerned, the consequence of not paying his rent now will be that when he DOES start working he'll owe every cent he makes to me till he's caught up. I think kicking him out would be tantamount to telling him I think he's not worth my time and that I don't really love him unconditionally. I honestly cannot think of any circumstances under which I would ever kick a kid of mine out onto the street with nowhere to live, unless they were putting the rest of the family in danger somehow. That is far, far from the case here. I don't see it as tough love, I see it as insulting and degrading.

He knows he has to get a job, he does want to, he just lacks the motivation. I want to help him get the motivation, I don't want to destroy my relationship with him.

[Shenjall]

Make sure you let him know that, in those exact words, "I dont want this to ruin our relationship". It will go a long way. Its a tricky road to navigate with them at this age, isnt it? Its a fine line parenting but at the same letting them go. Respecting who they are as a *person* yet still wanting to take care of them. Gosh, I just want to scream with you out of frustration.

And its a fine line for them too - wanting to be on their own, making their own choices, yet still wanting mum and dad to lean on. And thats okay, as long as everyones needs are respected.

I dont know if you read my suggestion earlier, but do you know someone who's hiring? A friend of a friend?

I think the key is sticking with whatever you decide. The back rent, the cutting off WoW, etc. You can do it!

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by BedHead

As far as I'm concerned, the consequence of not paying his rent now will be that when he DOES start working he'll owe every cent he makes to me till he's caught up. I think kicking him out would be tantamount to telling him I think he's not worth my time and that I don't really love him unconditionally. I honestly cannot think of any circumstances under which I would ever kick a kid of mine out onto the street with nowhere to live, unless they were putting the rest of the family in danger somehow. That is far, far from the case here. I don't see it as tough love, I see it as insulting and degrading.

He knows he has to get a job, he does want to, he just lacks the motivation. I want to help him get the motivation, I don't want to destroy my relationship with him.

Fair enough. I wasn't really addressing your problem, anymore - just arguing with another poster, which is really counterproductive. I wish you all the best and hope it works out okay.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

Fair enough. I wasn't really addressing your problem, anymore - just arguing with another poster, which is really counterproductive. I wish you all the best and hope it works out okay.

Same here.

good luck, Bedhead.... I think all posters, regardless of stance, want the best for you and your son.

kathy

[Labbemama]

Originally Posted by choli

This is probably very true. What happens if a videogame addict is forced to go "cold turkey"? Does anyone here have any experience of that?

It gets very ugly.

I call myself a WOW widow. My dh has substituted one addiction, quitting smoking, for another. Well, actually I think it was having to go outside in the snow and put his WOW campaigns on hold that finally made him kick nicotine. Seriously. He's been trying for years but he can't be away from WOW long enough to smoke or go to the restroom. It's like that episode of South Park.

From what I can tell WOW is a retreat from stress, can serve a powerful social function from the guilds that serve as substitute "Families" and avoidance of unpleasant things (Such as RESPONSIBILITY) like chores, work, a nagging wife like me. LOL. He also gets a sense of achievement from it. Like making level 80 and getting rewards. Finding a rare spirit beast.

But yeah, my advice is cut the internet service access to him off. Password your server so you can still use it.

I had a brother who was along for a free ride and I insisted he have a job and/or go to school to live here and gave him a deadline and the assistance he needed to get both. He did get a job. It's harder now though to find a job. but ANY job is better than no job. Volunteer, I don't care. Anything but WOW.

I have kicked him out 3 x. He's making some decisions that could go either way, but it was a GIRL that finally got him really moving. Unfortunately that girl who was really good for him--also kicked him out once she saw how sloth-like he was. But it was good for US when he got mad at us and decided to mooch off her for awhile. She'd take half his check and made him pay half the bills.

We were dumb and let him move BACK in.
Once they are out don't let them come back!!!

So- he's got another girlfriend--that he was bringing back HERE. (Which overnight guests was against the house rules) He got her pregnant. I told him they couldn't be having sex here /having sleepovers here--especially not with my kids home and this girl being sooooo Loud everyone knew. We tried to have an adult conversation. They got all mad and moved out in a huff. Poor girl ended up having a mc. I thought they would get their "house" in order, save up, get jobs with insurance...finish school..but no.

The whole time he lived with us he would sometimes go out all night drinking and partying with his guy friends. I couldn't say anything about that. He is still doing that now. This girl is kind of a party girl too.

It seems that the girl is now pregnant (Planned. )And she plans to stay home too after it's born and my db is going to support all 3 of them on Walmart wages when they can't afford their bills now before a baby and
it could be worse...They could all be living here. LOL, but I have my limits and I will only support ppl until their 21st bday.

From this I have learned to enforce house rules and to make sure the kids know 21 is it.

My oldest can't wait to move out. Everyday I'm thinking how can I make sure she is ready for that?