I am just at a loss. - Page 2

[karina5]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

They are not even allowed to drink in the USA until they are 21.

So I guess the law does not see them as complete adults.

Kathy

You know what's funny? Is if it was that her son (or hypothetical daughter) was going to be a parent then there would be lots of support that a teenage kid/adult can be a great parent, they are capable, and so forth.

But suggest that that same teenage kid/adult stop laying around all day while mom/dad supports a kid lazing around for months non-stop then they are being mean...? Actually, I'm not sure what it is that a parent that would have higher expectations for their teenage kid/adult would be.

So...is it mean to have higher expectations? What is the objection?

[purslaine]

This is MDC, home of gentle discipline and attachment parenting. I do not think these things abruptly end simply because a child (young adult) has hit a certain age. I think we should wean our children from our financial support in much they same way we wean them from others things.

I do not think freeloading at 19 = being a freeloader for life. What is with the black and white thinking??????

If you are anti coasting, I do not think nagging or micromanaging will work. A person has to want it for themselves - you cannot organise them into it - and pushing may only make them dig in their heels. I know this from personal experience. Both my DH and Ds are much more likely to do something if I lay off

I am not sure what will work. My advice is patience for a little while longer. I know the OP is angst ridden and some posters seem to be too, but he will become motivated on his own scheduel - not yours. I think most people naturally want to do things (work, travel, relationships, etc) and he will want to as well - it just isn't today. I think tough love (which is what seems to be advocated by some) has too high a cost. I love my mom - but I do not think we would have such a great relationship if she had kicked me out or became all "tough love".

I am not anti making him pay for his own stuff - WoW -just give him enough notice and leave it at that.


Kathy

[~PurityLake~]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

They are not even allowed to drink in the USA until they are 21.

So I guess the law does not see them as complete adults.

Kathy

Well, I think any age with the word teen in it means they're still teenagers.

You can drive at 16, or earlier, vote at 18, and drink at 21. I think the laws are a bit mixed up and if I was queen of the world... well, anyway...

My point is that I think being a teenager, young adult (early 20's) is a time of transition from childhood to adulthood and everyone develops at a different rate. I wouldn't call a 19 year old an adult (although legally they have adult rights, but then don't get me started on rights... ) and yes, many people are capable of raising children at that age or younger but I don't see how that is relevant to the OP.

I remember how stressed I was at 18-19 and lost and confused and had no idea what I wanted to be when I grew up (I still don't) and how much pressure I felt, real or imagined, to figure it all out NOW. Then again, there was no internet when I was 18-19, yet I still found other outlets for procrastinating, delaying my education, not picking out my life goals and career choices in a timely manner, and all that. So are so many times throughout my adult life that I've said to myself, 'If only my parents hadn't put so many dang controls and rules on me and allowed me the time to figure myself out, and encouraged me to explore all possibilities other than the one path they thought I should take, then my life would be so different now....

So, I come from that perspective. I think it may be a good idea to sit down and discuss the amount of time he spends playing WoW because it truly can be an addiction, but I don't think his slump is cause to kick him out.

[karina5]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

This is MDC, home of gentle discipline and attachment parenting. I do not think these things abruptly end simply because a child (young adult) has hit a certain age. I think we should wean our children from our financial support in much they same way we wean them from others things.

I do not think freeloading at 19 = being a freeloader for life. What is with the black and white thinking??????

If you are anti coasting, I do not think nagging or micromanaging will work. A person has to want it for themselves - you cannot organise them into it - and pushing may only make them dig in their heels. I know this from personal experience. Both my DH and Ds are much more likely to do something if I lay off

I am not sure what will work. My advice is patience for a little while longer. I know the OP is angst ridden and some posters seem to be too, but he will become motivated on his own scheduel - not yours. I think most people naturally want to do things (work, travel, relationships, etc) and he will want to as well - it just isn't today. I think tough love (which is what seems to be advocated by some) has too high a cost. I love my mom - but I do not think we would have such a great relationship if she had kicked me out or became all "tough love".

I am not anti making him pay for his own stuff - WoW -just give him enough notice and leave it at that.


Kathy

I never suggested *not* giving him notice. And I don't see how it is black/white to cut off JUST WoW and have a higher expectation from a capable adult child. I practice AP and gentle discipline. I don't see how having (some actually small) expectations goes against that.

He very likely may not be a freeloader for life. : But it has been a year and to many people (who also practice GD and AP) that is long enough to be concerning.

ETA: In case I wasn't 100% clear, I do NOT advocate for kicking him out. And as mentioned, I am pretty much anti- tough-love in most situations as well. Just want to be clear! :-)

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by ~Purity♥Lake~

Well, I think any age with the word teen in it means they're still teenagers.

You can drive at 16, or earlier, vote at 18, and drink at 21. I think the laws are a bit mixed up and if I was queen of the world... well, anyway...

My point is that I think being a teenager, young adult (early 20's) is a time of transition from childhood to adulthood and everyone develops at a different rate. I wouldn't call a 19 year old an adult (although legally they have adult rights, but then don't get me started on rights... ) and yes, many people are capable of raising children at that age or younger but I don't see how that is relevant to the OP.

I remember how stressed I was at 18-19 and lost and confused and had no idea what I wanted to be when I grew up (I still don't) and how much pressure I felt, real or imagined, to figure it all out NOW. Then again, there was no internet when I was 18-19, yet I still found other outlets for procrastinating making my life goals and career choices. So many times I've said to myself, 'If only my parents hadn't put so many dang controls and rules on me and allowed me the time to figure myself out, and encouraged me to explore all possibilities other than the one path they thought I should take, then my life would be so different now....

So, I come from that perspective. I think it may be a good idea to sit down and discuss the amount of time he spends playing WoW because it truly can be an addiction, but I don't think his slump is cause to kick him out.

Nice post!

I probably should not have made the "drinking at 21" crack - the argument demon simply spewed out of me, lol

I do think it is a transitional age and some of us take longer to transition than others. It is about honouring their process (while not letting our boundaries be stepped on).

OP: are you in Canada? I seem to remember you are... If so there are some fantastic programs for youth he might enjoy (katimavik comes to mind but there are others). If he is Canadian and you think he may be interested in such things, let me know and I will get you some links....

Kathy

OP:

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by karina5

<snip>and have a higher expectation from a capable adult child.


<snip>
ETA: In case I wasn't 100% clear, I do NOT advocate for kicking him out. And as mentioned, I am pretty much anti- tough-love in most situations as well. Just want to be clear! :-)

The easy one first - I totally hear you on the last paragraph! You are clear.

The trickier one second - and I am thinking and writing at the same time, so this is not a fully formed hypothesis.....

I am not sure we should have expectations of adult children. I do not have expectations of my adult sister for example. I do not have expectations of my mother. I do have expectations of my husband - but that is because we both enterred into joint responsibilites (kids, house, pets, cars, etc)

I think it is reasonable to have boundaries. If the OP feels her boundaries are being crossed - then she should state them clearly, and fairly. I do think his age should be taken into account - what is freeloading in a 30 year old is not freeloading in a 19 year old. None-the-less that is my take. The OP has to figure out her own.

[~PurityLake~]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

Nice post!

Thanks

I think that's the first time anyone ever said that about one of my posts in the 4 years I've been a member here.

probably because I do this a lot:

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

and I am thinking and writing at the same time, so this is not a fully formed hypothesis

[karina5]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

The easy one first - I totally hear you on the last paragraph! You are clear.

The trickier one second - and I am thinking and writing at the same time, so this is not a fully formed hypothesis.....

I am not sure we should have expectations of adult children. I do not have expectations of my adult sister for example. I do not have expectations of my mother. I do have expectations of my husband - but that is because we both enterred into joint responsibilites (kids, house, pets, cars, etc)

I think it is reasonable to have boundaries. If the OP feels her boundaries are being crossed - then she should state them clearly, and fairly. I do think his age should be taken into account - what is freeloading in a 30 year old is not freeloading in a 19 year old. None-the-less that is my take. The OP has to figure out her own.

Well that is the thing. And maybe that is where you and I are also just different. I do have expectations from most adults in my life. Including my siblings, my parents, my spouse, and even friends. They may not be complicated expectations, but they are expectations nonetheless. I'm not sure how it is bad....?

But even if expectations are not the way it should be...I do think the OP is looking for validation that she can have a boundary.

Nobody ever said, "don't communicate clearly with your son." (Not that I saw). I agree that an immediate kicking him out would be over-the-top but I imagine that even people that feel that way would expect a parent to continue stating their boundaries clearly and fairly.

And, yes, we should keep in mind that he is 19, and not 30. But again, it has been a YEAR. If it had been a month or even a few months...I would feel as if you do. But a year is a bit much.

[Ruthla]

Has he actually been paying rent since Feb? How is he paying it if he doesn't have a job?

Either he does have some sort of income (or perhaps a bank account he's been tapping into?) or you've been letting the rent slide for the past couple of months. (Wait. It's March. He's only had to pay rent twice.)

I think you need to set some boundaries and let him know what they are ahead of time. I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect him to pay for his own WoW.

[~PurityLake~]

Originally Posted by karina5

I do think the OP is looking for validation that she can have a boundary.

Yes. I agree. Validating the need for boundaries is really important, in all relationships.

I also think he may need a little help getting out of his WoW addiction.

The parent/child relationship changes as well, and it's really difficult to change from parent/child to parent/adultish child, different rules, different boundaries for both. It can just get a bit confusing sometimes. The OP clearly wants to help motivate her son, but on the other hand, she doesn't want to feel used.

[veganone]

I think it's one thing to let a kid coast a bit, and enjoy young adulthood. I did that for a few years. BUT, I was certainly not permitted to not work or go to school and my parents certainly didn't fund any addictions (smoking and WoW would qualify IMO).

I have a BIL who is now 29 and is still exactly like the OP's son. You do need to set some boundaries and I agree that the longer you wait the harder it is for them to change. There is nothing wrong with BIL other than parents who have no expectations of him. It's really very sad to watch him throw his life away.

[NikonMama]

Minus the WoW, that sounds like me when I was 19. I slept all day, and spent all night on the computer. It is how I get when I'm depressed, much like right now, and I'm doing the same thing. My parents put up with it for a while, but finally my dad stormed into my room one day while I was sleeping and told me that I needed to get a job within a week or I would have to find somewhere else to live.

[purslaine]

Originally Posted by karina5

Well that is the thing. And maybe that is where you and I are also just different. I do have expectations from most adults in my life. Including my siblings, my parents, my spouse, and even friends. They may not be complicated expectations, but they are expectations nonetheless. I'm not sure how it is bad....?



And, yes, we should keep in mind that he is 19, and not 30. But again, it has been a YEAR. If it had been a month or even a few months...I would feel as if you do. But a year is a bit much.

Maybe my idea of expectations are different from yours.

For example, if I go visit my mom I will drive her around, she will be gratefull and happy I drove her, but it is not an expectation. I don't have to and she would not lay that on me.

We are adults and free to live our own lives. I think there is pressure that can come with trying to live up to anothers expectations that is not always healthy.

I wish I could multi quote!

Veganone - I would disagree with the line:

"there is nothing wrong with BIL other than parents who have no expectations of him"

Your BIL is 29! He is responsible for his own fate - his parents are not to blame (even if they enable) for his life. It is his life.

[purslaine]

One last thought and then I am off to bed! (I may not have a Wow addiction, I do have an MDC one, lol)

There is an idea in US (or deschooling - more precisely) that it takes an average of one month of deschooling per year in school to regain oneself. I am sure not all of you are USers, but the OP is, so it might be worth her consideration.

This young man has probably been in school for 12 years. It is going to take a good while before he becomes self motivated.

Kathy

[IlluminatedAttic]

These are my thoughts from a BTDT perspective.

Does he have any goals for the future? A career he wants to pursue? First thing I would do is help him with this. Find a place to get him career counseling if necessary. Once a goal is established help him plan a pathway to achieving it. Perhaps it will be college or vocational training. Perhaps it is an apprenticeship. Whatever the path needs to be help him figure this out. Set a time frame for all of the above research to happen. If he truly has no idea what career he is interested in then perhaps find some service organizations that he can be involved with several hours a week. I know several people for whom volunteer service was a catalyst for their passion in career change/choice.

Next, decide how much you and dh want to invest financially in this goal/path. Perhaps you are willing to pay for a portion of his school tuition, but also think about books and supplies, room and board, everything. Perhaps you have already paid for schooling in the past that did not work out and you are not willing to contribute any more. Whatever might be needed, try to quantify what you are willing to bear.

Then, with these decisions in mind, sit down with your ds and come up with a contract. Financial contributions from you will be contingent upon certain actions on his part. Examples might be; Your % of any tuition payments is dependent on him maintaining a B average. Or, tenancy in the house is allowed only by payment of a set amount of rent PLUS putting a certain amount into savings. (So he can eventually afford to move out.) and set a date by which he will find other housing. Whatever the path match it to the requirements. Put time frames on everything but make them reasonable and comfortable.

Now the hardest part - STICK TO IT. I agree with the pps who said that you have tried your best to raise him to be a successful man and need to stop enabling his efforts to undo this dream.

I know all of this is difficult. We went thru a similar experience with my dss. This type of 'tough love' can be heart wrenching. But we knew that his biggest issue was inertia and we made sure to tell him continuously that we had faith in him and knew that he could be successful. We had lots of conversations. We put in place every possible support, did nothing abruptly, were willing to adapt to changes in the situation, but we were consistent in our requirement that he always be striving for a goal. It did not happen overnight, but he's doing very well now, very successful in the career he finally chose.

Good Luck!

[karina5]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

Maybe my idea of expectations are different from yours.

For example, if I go visit my mom I will drive her around, she will be gratefull and happy I drove her, but it is not an expectation. I don't have to and she would not lay that on me.

We are adults and free to live our own lives. I think there is pressure that can come with trying to live up to anothers expectations that is not always healthy.

I wish I could multi quote!

Veganone - I would disagree with the line:

"there is nothing wrong with BIL other than parents who have no expectations of him"

Your BIL is 29! He is responsible for his own fate - his parents are not to blame (even if they enable) for his life. It is his life.

I think a parent having some expectations of an older teenage/adult child is a good thing and pretty much apples and oranges to compare to driving someone around, which I find an odd comparison.

Their son lives with them. From what the OP said, he pretty much does nothing but sleep and play WoW. He only does things for $ to get tobacco. You talk about boundaries being okay, and as mentioned, Mom is feeling uncomfortable with the situation and would like validation that putting up a boundary is okay.

It is not having lofty expectations at this point to expect the kid to do more than he is doing. Yes...have conversations...find out WHAT and WHY. Set boundaries and clear expectations. Listen to your child. Nobody is saying that Mom should not do any of those things.

But just b/c someone has been unschooled and is raised GD/AP does not mean that there would be an expectation of some sort that the child contribute to the household.

At what point does a parent say "this is enough. We need for you to contribute to our house as you are a member of our house." You think that one year of doing nothing but playing WoW and sleeping is fine. Many people (including ones that have BTDT - which I think is VERY relevant) think it is too long and a good time to work on making changes before these habits set in even more.

So after how many years should a parent come to have a higher expectation from a member of a household?

[Shenjall]

Bedhead, you have every right to set some boundaries and expectations. BTDT

I would start with the WoW. Tell him that the renewal is coming up and unless he has the $$ to pay for it, (on his own, not paid chores from you) it wont be renewed. Its not up for discussion, its just the way it is. Even put it in writing so he cant argue that you never told him or argue the date. Now heres the important part: stick to your guns. You can do this!

Babysteps. You dont have to figure it all out right away, just start with one thing and go from there.

I know it can be hard, my ds is almost 19 and we went thru a rough patch too. And we still are transitioning.

Hang in there!

[purslaine]

Karina5 - I think you are being argumentative, and I am not sure why

All I think is that patience is in order. You disagree - that is fine.

I also have several BTDT - I can think of 3 members of my family who "loafed" around in early, early adulthood. All 3 are working now and not sponging off of anyone. One of them does play Wow, but he pays for it himself, lol.

For the record, I am not against the OP paying for his own Wow. I think him paying for non-essentials is a great introduction to finance management.

[karina5]

Originally Posted by kathymuggle

Karina5 - I think you are being argumentative, and I am not sure why

All I think is that patience is in order. You disagree - that is fine.

I also have several BTDT - I can think of 3 members of my family who "loafed" around in early, early adulthood. All 3 are working now and not sponging off of anyone. One of them does play Wow, but he pays for it himself, lol.

For the record, I am not against the OP paying for his own Wow. I think him paying for non-essentials is a great introduction to finance management.

A few things. I only have a second....

1. I'm not being argumentative, just trying to understand your position. And disagreeing with you on some things, but so are many people on this thread.

2. You said patience should be in order. I actually don't disagree with that. I don't think kicking him out is "patient" and I have said several times that I don't think that would be the right thing to do.

My question for you was how long should a parent be okay with this? I'm genuinely curious about your opinion! :-)

3. Having relatives/knowing people who have BTDT is not the same as actually BTDT - like the son. That is all I meant. I think we all *know* people who have BTDT. I have. Most of them are working now, some have struggled. But actually living the situation is different than knowing someone who has done that.

Again...not being argumentative. It seems we both have some strong opinions on this, and I am just stating mine and trying to understand yours, and I am doing so respectfully.

[karina5]

Ooops, I thought I was done but I'm not, !

Veganone said:

I have a BIL who is now 29 and is still exactly like the OP's son. You do need to set some boundaries and I agree that the longer you wait the harder it is for them to change.

Her point, as was mine, is that these habits can become very ingrained, not that he is now 29 years old.