How do you feel about longer school terms/days?

[SunshineJ]

I was reading Obama's latest on school reform and one thing he said really stuck with me. The level of education that he wants to raise this country to is ambitious (and would be wonderful!), but he commented that it could not be done in the current amount of time children spend in school - the phrase was "longer school days, school weeks and school years".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090310/...bama_education

Thoughts on this?

**Please note that this IS NOT intended to be a political discussion on the merits of President Obama or the actions of past presidental leaders, but rather a discussion on your opinion of the changes that are being proposed only.

[Ruthla]

I think kids spend too much time in school already, and kids need more time to be kids. Forcing more time in school, at the expense of recess and playtime, isn't the answer.

[Bekka]

NO.

If there were significant adjustments to schooldays, like a whole hour more per day, or something, we would look at alternatives, most likely home schooling.

Our children are provided with rich learning environment at home as well, most of all including music. They practice 45 to 90 minutes every day on their instruments (ages 8 and 10), and they need time to play, read, relax, and regroup. We are also active in church activities, and they are in an aikido class. Orchestra will also be added. They are busy, active kids, and when my 5th grader needs to stay up 30 min. late to finish homework and doesn't go to bed until 9:30 (and wake at 6 am) there is NO need for more time in school. I think they need less homework and more time to play!!!

[LiamnEmma]

I think we should be looking more closely at quality, not quantity. You can throw programs and interventions and all sorts of whatnot at kids, but if you don't have good people who are also good teachers teaching them, it matters not one bit.

[Heavenly]

Well, I'm in Canada, so thankfully what Obama thinks won't affect my children but I would probably homeschool again if the kids were in school longer and more days. My kids go to private school and there day is 9:00am-3:30pm. I would prefer only to 3:00pm but oh well. They had 17 days off for Christmas break, they will have 10 days off for March break and they have a long weekend every month either for a national holiday or a PD day. They finish school mid-June and they start again after Labour Day. The public schools actually have less breaks than we do. I think how it is right now is okay but longer is just not acceptable. I didn't have my children just to hand them over to someone else for most of their lives. I want to have a part in their lives as well.

[dbsam]

I do not want my children in school longer days or weeks. (They’re still in preschool so I cannot even imagine them in school every day!)

I am working with a group forming a charter school in our area. The charter school mgmt company we’ve contracted with feels longer days and school years are important and a necessary ingredient in their successful schools. I think the value of more time in school depends upon the child’s home life. For the school we are proposing, our group decided upon a longer day but a typical school year that follows the other public schools in our area.

If I could design my vision of a perfect school for my family, I think it would be a combination of home schooling (not necessarily teaching but playing, music lessons, etc.) and in-school learning with the children in school four-five hours/day, four days/week.

[SunshineJ]

I had a feeling the replies would be along those lines. I flat out told DH that if he gets this implemented I will do whatever it takes to homeschool my children. I'll be honest, that's not something I really have the burning desire to do like some parents, but with all the wasted time and sense of rush in my child's day right now (and he's in kindergarten!) I cannot fathom what longer days would do to him nor what more days would actually accomplish. Five years ago or so it was state law that children 5 and under (which included kindy by default) were required to be allowed a nap. Now my son gets 15 min in which he may go to the bathroom and lay his head down on his desk. His school has cut recess to one time per day, and he gets 20 min from the time he lines up in class to the time he lines up in the lunchroom to eat (real time for lunch = less than 15 min). They waste on average one hour a month for "fundraiser assemblies".

There is precious little family time available as it is, I can't see limiting that even further. Besides, I have to wonder when my children would be given the opportunity to be, you know, children!

K.

[Linda on the move]

what a stupid thing to say!!!

The length of the school day and the number of school days is set by each state. They aren't all the same. So to say that they should be "longer" is just stupid. Longer than what? Should the states with shorter school days be required to catch up with the states with longer days? Should everybody add an hour, regardless of how long their current school day is? Same thing with number of days in the school year.

Having lived all over (we move a lot for my DHs job) I find most global comments pretty silly. We still don't have national standards for what kids are supposed to be learning in each grade. The feds have never managed to say "this is what kids should learn in K, this is what they should learn in first," and so on. Because of that, everything just seems stupid to me. How can the federal government determine if the schools are getting the job done, when they have never defined what the job is.

[sarahr]

My DD hasn't started school yet, so take my comments for what they're worth.

I think a longer school day would probably be too much, although I would fully support a supervised (perhaps mandatory) study hall for older kids, so that kids with less supervision at home have a safe place to do their homework, plus a easy way to get whatever help they need.

A longer school year would definitely make sense. The current school year is based around the agriculture calendar, which doesn't apply to most students any more. Many families can't afford child care/camps/enrichment activities during the summer. Many students lose skills over the summer. It also increases the differences between more advantaged and less advantaged students.

All of us on MDC are committed involved parents with the resources to provide our children with a rich (I don't mean money) environment. But Obama has to make policies for everyone, especially those without those resources. I think extending the school day and year is the best thing for them.

[junipermuse]

Originally Posted by sarahr

My DD hasn't started school yet, so take my comments for what they're worth.

I think a longer school day would probably be too much, although I would fully support a supervised (perhaps mandatory) study hall for older kids, so that kids with less supervision at home have a safe place to do their homework, plus a easy way to get whatever help they need.

A longer school year would definitely make sense. The current school year is based around the agriculture calendar, which doesn't apply to most students any more. Many families can't afford child care/camps/enrichment activities during the summer. Many students lose skills over the summer. It also increases the differences between more advantaged and less advantaged students.

All of us on MDC are committed involved parents with the resources to provide our children with a rich (I don't mean money) environment. But Obama has to make policies for everyone, especially those without those resources. I think extending the school day and year is the best thing for them.

I disagree that we need to make policies for everyone that only serve some of the group rather than all children. If some families need child care in the summer than we need to provide summer child care for those families, not force all children to spend more time away from their families and enriching home environment. If loss of skills is the issue, than lets have year round school where children attend school the same number of days but the vacation is spread out throughout the year rather than in one large chunk. I honestly don't think children need to be in school more. I'd rather see the money spent on smaller classes or higher salaries for teachers or finding methods of teaching that are more effective and engaging. The only way I see more time at school as beneficial is if the extra time is spent on outdoor and indoor freeplay, more art and music, and other extra curricular stuff that is usually cut when our focus is "back to basics" education. But I don't see that as likely. I think creating a longer school day/year is going to force more families to homeschool, it's going to cause a greater rift in parent/child relationships for those that choose to stay in the school system and it's going to force children to spend longer hours in an institution that already fails to meet their needs.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by sarahr

I think a longer school day would probably be too much, although I would fully support a supervised (perhaps mandatory) study hall for older kids,

our school has after care and children can work on their homework, have a healthy snack, and play with others.

This shouldn't be mandatory. As it is, the kids miss recess if they don't get their work done. They spend 7 hours a day in school. That's enough time.

Many families can't afford child care/camps/enrichment activities during the summer. Many students lose skills over the summer. It also increases the differences between more advantaged and less advantaged students.

our school has summer programs that are free/cheap. Our community offers a variety of programs, and many of them have financial assistance. You are advocating children spending more time sitting in chairs and less time in pursuits which are interesting to them, be that sports, spending time in nature, enrichment through the junior college, reading good books, or just hanging out with their families and friends.

I think that your views are based on a lack of knowledge about what is already available.

But Obama has to make policies for everyone, especially those without those resources. I think extending the school day and year is the best thing for them.

It's one thing to make things available to people, it's quite another to force them down their throats. The school day where we live is 7 hours, and the summer break is 2 months. That's enough time in school.

[Porcelain Interior]

This is just like the "but we need more money" argument.

We spend oodles of money on our schools and it doesn't do a thing to raise scores.

I have a feeling extending "learning" hours would not do much either.

They need to get to the root of the issue, which I believe has nothing to do with money or the number of hours in the school day.

The schools are too big, and the system has turned into a factory. A very sad bland factory with poor results.

If I could change things I'd break the schools up into small pods, neighborhoods- similar to the one room school house style with intensive community involvement inside and outside the school, and a less alienated parent environment.

I realize most people/parents want the school to just "do their job" and not have to be involved, but I have to think half the problems we have today are caused by the big box effect in our schools, and our communities.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by Porcelain Interior

The schools are too big, and the system has turned into a factory. A very sad bland factory with poor results.

If I could change things I'd break the schools up into small pods, neighborhoods- similar to the one room school house style with intensive community involvement inside and outside the school, and a less alienated parent environment.

Interesting view point. Our school district would support your idea. Our whole district has 1 elementary school and 1 middle school. We don't even have a high school (the kids are divided between 2 different districts after middle school).

It makes it easy to make changes. A parent who can't be involved during the day, can go to a PTO meeting and say they want healthier lunches, and everyone can talk about what that means, and then we can just have a new policy. There aren't a zillion differen people who need to sign off on it.

[Evan&Anna's_Mom]

I deliberately chose a private school precisely because it had a longer day and more days/year. This means there is time for lots of recess, less-structured play time, sports every day, art, music, and other activities. All things that have been reduced or eliminated from the local public schools. More time at school can mean more options and wider breadth of learning, not necessarily more time just sitting at a desk doing worksheets.

I do think that more choices/options for schools would be good, so that no one felt like they were forced into something that didn't fit for their family. If you would rather provide these opportunities for your children, you should be able to find a school that will let you do that and provide the things that you can't/don't want to provide. And, of course, home schooling should always be an option for those who completely want to "do it themselves".

That said, I think many, perhaps most, children/families would benefit from more time in school. NOT at the expense of recess and playtime, but more hours/day so that there was both enough time for active play/lower structure play AND for more learning. I see the reality for many disadvantaged children/families each day because of my job. While many kids of MDC families may get summer enrichment, afterschool playtime, nurturing family time, I'm pretty convinced we make up the minority of families in the US public schools (the only ones that would be automatically impacted by Obama's plans). For many families, children don't go home and play with their parents after school. They go to daycare/aftercare or they go home to empty houses where they are instructed not to open the drapes or the door and not allowed to play outside until mom/dad/older sibling comes home. Summers aren't spent in enriching activities, they are spent sitting in front of the TV waiting for parents to come home from work. Or dreading the time when parent comes home because stressed parents means screaming/hitting/whatever. Or participating in even less savory activities. These are the kids who will only get art, music or sports if they are included in the public school curriculum, as they should be. They aren't going to get read to at night so we should make sure there is time in school. These are the kids that the schools need to serve better and that is going to take time at school, as well as money.

One of the reasons that schools can be such miserable places right now is because we are trying to cram so much learning into such a little amount of time each day/year. They would be more effective and more pleasant if there was more time to achieve what is needed plus the extras that contribute to a greater understanding of the world and better thinking skills.

[sarahr]

Originally Posted by Linda on the move

our school has summer programs that are free/cheap. Our community offers a variety of programs, and many of them have financial assistance. You are advocating children spending more time sitting in chairs and less time in pursuits which are interesting to them, be that sports, spending time in nature, enrichment through the junior college, reading good books, or just hanging out with their families and friends.

I think that your views are based on a lack of knowledge about what is already available.

I fully admit that, since my DD is only 2, there's a lot I don't know.

In terms of summer programs, are they as full-day as school? To my knowledge, that isn't true where I live.

I hope that more time in school doesn't just equal "more time in chairs." I hope it means more time thinking, more time engaged, more time being exposed to new things. That was certainly true of the school I went to and I hope it's true of the school my DD will go to, but maybe I'm naive.

One of the most successful programs that I've read about in terms of decreasing the difference between rich and poor, minority and non-minority is the KIPP program: http://www.kipp.org/ From what I know of it, I think that having every child have access to something like this would do a lot for our society.

And, I agree with whoever posted above about year-round programs -- as long as child care needs could be met during the shorter breaks, I think that would be a great idea (and maybe some of the add'l time could be spent doing the kinds of things that only more affluent kids get to do during their breaks, like time outside, learning in non-traditional ways).

[Bekka]

We have family on the other side of the country. My parents, not just random cousins. Having a long summer allowed us the opportunity to drive across the country, see them for a couple of weeks, and come back. If we only had 2 or 3 week intervals we would not have had that freedom. Lots of the families where we live have close family far away (India, Hungary) and need to go and visit for a long time to get "bang for the buck." We're going to plan a trip to Australia in a year or two to be able to see dh's extended family and where he was born, and guess what, we want to go for at least a month!

I heard that in Ontario they can get "time out" from school for enrichment such as private music lessons once or twice a week. I could see that working very well, and I would be less resistant to *slightly* longer days (like 30 min or less). But my kids already have 30 plus minutes of homework as well. Since when should 6 and 8 year olds be held to the same requirements as adults? An 8 hour day is a "standard workday." My kids are in school from 7:50 am until 2:40 pm with a 30 min lunch and 1 recess. It's long enough.

[Linda on the move]

Originally Posted by sarahr

I hope that more time in school doesn't just equal "more time in chairs."

recess time has been cut in many places, and some new elementary schools are being built without playgrounds.

You have a 2 year old. Trust me, when she is 8, you aren't going to think she needs an 8 hour work day, 11 months out of the year.

One of the most successful programs that I've read about in terms of decreasing the difference between rich and poor, minority and non-minority

you seem super concerned about differences (which is all well and good) but taking children out of lovely programs that their parents are more than happy to pay for does NOTHING to help poor children. Nothing. Provide nice programs for kids who couldn't otherwise have access, sure. But then it's gotta be optional. More money can be spent on programs for underserved kids when it's just serving those kids, and not the kids whose parents are happy to pay for horse camp or whatever.

And why shouldn't a child get to do whatever they want to if their parents can and are willing to spend the money on it? How does them not getting to do it help anyone?

BTW, the school that my DD attends is racial mixed (40% white, 40% african american, 20% other) and is economical diverse as well. One of the many great things about it is that they offer scholarship money to any child who attends the school to do something enriching outside of school. The child has to apply and write an essay, and there are limits as to how much each child can have per year. (we have a great tax base for the number of students).

[EFmom]

I love Obama, but I disagree with everything about his education proposals.

Kids are in school long enough. When they get home, they have mountains of homework. A longer school day wouldn't translate into more recess or arts. It certainly would not mean more play of any sort. It would mean more time drilling for standardized tests, more generally time wasting pseudo-psychology programs, and more filling in worksheets. More of the same isn't the answer.

[sunnmama]

I strongly disagree with Obama on this issue. School is great, but it is no subsitute for family and community.

[motheringmina]

I think kids are in school long enough. They are exhausted when they finish the day and have plenty of work to take home. Schools can not take the place of parents! I think that longer school year, day, week is a terrible idea and if this policy is implemented I will not be sending my daughter to this kind of school.

I'm wondering if private schools and charter schools would have to go along with this demands? Maybe that would be an option. Homeschooling would be my last choice though I would do it if I have to. I think a seven hour school day is too long and have really been thinking I'd like to find a part time school so that I could do a combination of school and homeschool. My child has much to learn from her parents at home and from her grandparents! I don't want that time taken away.

What critics of the American education fail to acknowledge is that unlike many other nations the US educates all of its citizens. Many other countries with whom we compare ourselves track students according to ability and performance. So it is like comparing apples and oranges in many respects. I'm not saying tracking is neccessarily wrong but I'm saying that our system is like no other. Also if you compare children who are educated in many other countries, you find that many students from around the world have trouble with creative activities, group work and situations where they have to make a choice. I believe that too much structured time in a child's life can be a negative thing. I want my daughter to flourish and learn from many different sources. She will spend enough years of her life sitting in a chair in a school.

I think they get our children long enough and they need to work with that they have and improve what is already in place. Not just add more demands and constraints.