Article in Atlantic - Page 3

[Swan3]

Originally Posted by spughy

I just don't get the whole "scientific rationale" debate. Do you really NEED some scientist to tell you to do what every other mammal on the planet does by instinct???

In the end, I think common sense and past history would dictate that faith in evolution (or God, whatever) should trump faith in human ingenuity, especially when even formula manufacturers don't even pretend to have closely duplicated breastmilk, and we don't exactly have the best track record of being able to do stuff better than nature. Arguments against breastfeeding all come down to cultural factors - "I have to work" or "I don't want to bf in public" or whatever. These *aren't* arguments against breastfeeding, they're evidence that our culture forces us to live in unnatural, damaging and anti-feminine ways. Dragging science into the mess only obfuscates the real issues.

I'm always amazed by how as humans we think we can outsmart or circumvent nature...and that we've built this society we now must conform to, a world that does not value mothering or parenting or family in general.

[dewi]

Changed my mind

[Leta]

Originally Posted by spughy

Breastfeeding science is essentially nutritional science - most of it - and it tends to be either epidemiological, correlational, or reductionist "how many fun molecules can we find in this stuff?" Science works best when all the variables can be isolated and tested independently, but that is impossible when it comes to feeding humans.

Arguments against breastfeeding all come down to cultural factors - "I have to work" or "I don't want to bf in public" or whatever. These *aren't* arguments against breastfeeding, they're evidence that our culture forces us to live in unnatural, damaging and anti-feminine ways. Dragging science into the mess only obfuscates the real issues.

Yes, yes, and exactly. Well said.

And another thing: if BFing or FFing is a choice based on societal factors, what about the environmental impact of FFing? Which, we can all agree, is much greater (in that negative way) than BFing. So maybe all those playground moms were thinking, "Oh, great more stuffed landfills for my kid," yk? If you are going to FF just to fit in to some societal model, it's just like anything else in that you have to take the good with the bad.

[siobhang]

Originally Posted by laneysprout

i think the real problem - which she fails to address, at all - is that breastfeeding in a contemporary context alters the relationship between bodies and public space. The workplace (in most companies, for most mothers) simply does not accommodate the kind of parenting we are discussing here. If more companies offered breastfeeding lounges, or on-site daycare, or flex-time, or longer paid parental leave, or allowed mothers to bring their not-yet-mobile babies to work with them, then we wouldn't be talking about this.

The author's beef is not with science, or breastfeeding or other mothers. It's with a society that doesn't recognize or support mothers as full participants in the public sphere.

yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[PiesandAbrosmama]

[QUOTE=EviesMom;13362725]

I nurse because I am a woman, I bore children, and this is how mammals feed our young. I like nursing. I enjoy nursing. IThat's it.[/QUOTE]

Amen!!!

[PiesandAbrosmama]

and Amen!

Originally Posted by Swan3

I'm always amazed by how as humans we think we can outsmart or circumvent nature...and that we've built this society we now must conform to, a world that does not value mothering or parenting or family in general.

[Soxfan Mom]

I'm so glad someone linked to this article. I have simmered about it since the issue came in the door.

I work as an editor. I can tell you I would have bounced this article right back to the author because it strikes me as a 5,000-word whine. In a supposedly scholarly publication, she fails to bring up two practical reasons to breastfeed:

1) The expense. In this economy, how can the cost of formula be overlooked vs. what is free? How much would our government save if every woman on public assistance breastfed instead of using formula?

2) The safety. President Obama expressed concern about the safety of the food supply system today. Has the news cycle passed this author by so quickly that she forgot the tainted formula in China that killed children? She is borderline negligent to submit this screed without even touching that subject.

The Atlantic welcomes letters that are longer in length than other publications. I encourage others here to join me in writing them.

I think The Atlantic knew about her omissions -- what editor would miss that? -- but elected to stir the pot with this author's dubious approach.

And by the way, I have worked on deadline plenty of times in the busiest department in a newspaper, and I found time to pump during the night. It's not that difficult. I get her point about how it's harder for women who work in waitressing, etc., but I had to laugh about her using being a reporter as an example.

[Lizbiz]

"The author's beef is not with science, or breastfeeding or other mothers. It's with a society that doesn't recognize or support mothers as full participants in the public sphere."

I totally agree with this! Although I think she also has a few other beefs - like another beef with God for the differences between men and women and the undue burden that places on her as the Mother. And I'd also like to add that.... although, like many of you, I have major problems with her article, tone, research, etc...

...I can relate to her points. Kind of. After getting past her tone, I do see her point. BF'ing is 'more difficult' in some ways. I WANT to breastfeed my children - and I WANT to spend lots of time with them. I also have many other goals, but in my mind, I have made a choice: I will sacrifice some measure of success in the public sphere in order to be a good mother (and wife). I also believe my husband has made a similar choice as a father - he has already and will continue to make sacrifices to be a good father (and husband). We have made some peace with this reality. I will not be working 60 hour work weeks anymore. Can't do it and be present to my family. At the end of the day, I'd rather look back and see that I was there for my husband and children than see that I worked some quantity of hours at whatever job, no matter how great the job. That's not to say I don't really enjoy working and value my education/career.. I do, very much indeed.

BUT, if that's what she wants - to have the same measure of success in the public sphere as if she didn't have any children or a husband, then I can empathize. That must be very difficult to HAVE to make the sacrifice grudgingly. I'm not so sure breastfeeding is her main issue, at the end of the day - it seems like BF'ing was made to be the whipping boy in this article. She's saying it's tough to be a mother (no denials there - I totally agree) and if the fatigue she's feeling as a mom of 3 is also compounded by her frustration at not being able to achieve her goals in the way she'd like (sans children) - then I kind of get it.

But in my mind, she been sold a pack of lies. By the feminists who'd like us to believe we should be able to have it all - and if we "Choose" to have children, then we should STILL be able to have it all and do it all well. And if we fail, the blame is on us. For breastfeeding, for not working enough, for not managing our time well, whatever... And crushed by that pressure, she's lashing out at the nearest enemy (well said, previous poster) - those who would daresay breast is best. Well, it is best. That's really all there is to it.

All that said, I still feel her pain. We've got a long way to go before our workplaces make room for the fact that women are also the mothers, and that is a unique role. I will say I have had to make more direct and immediate sacrifices than my husband thus far - I have no regrets, but that's reality. He got to go to Tibet in January - I stayed home with Leo. He went on tour last summer with an orchestra - I stayed home with Leo. There are moments when I also wish I had the freedom to do those things as well. But I remind myself that time will come, and I only have this time with Leo as a little guy. I believe my true freedom at this point is living out my motherhood to its fullest.

I DID laugh at the part about the moms all in their fashion clothes comparing organic snacks and ratios of wooden toys. I'm in China, so I don't really experience this part of mothering, but it struck a chord because I've lived on the East Coast and I can relate to that craziness.

I hope she found this experience cathartic and I also hope many MDC mommas write in and blast her faulty article to pieces! Be kind though - I do think she has some valid concerns underneath it all.

[mommyto3girls]

modesty, independence, career, sanity—on the minus side

Modesty- Use a nursing shirt, a "hooter hider", wear a tank top under your shirt, or use breastfeeding as a time to embrace your body and its power.

Independence- Umm, hello? You are a mother. You have chosen to bring three lives into this world, you should not need independence from them so soon in their lives. And if you really need a break, pack your pump and take a few hours for yourself.

Career- I returned to work when my babies were 11 weeks and 12 weeks old. I teach full time and everyday I would pack up my pump and head to work. I did stop pumping at work when they were 12 months, yet my oldest weaned at age 2 and my youngest at 3 1/2! The female body is amazing, milk works on supply and demand and it will adjust to the demands of your child!

Sanity- I can not imagine a better way to relax and unwind after a long day at work. To come home and have that adorable little body fold into yours and relax against you, nothing beats that feeling for me.

[loraxc]

I was thinking about this article this morning, and I want to come at this as the parent of a kid with chronic health issues.

I wonder if this woman would ever have written this article if her third child ended up having chronic ear infections, or asthma, or allergies to formula, or God forbid leukemia or life-threatening gastrointestinal issues or one of the other health issues that can potentially be linked to FFing. I don't think she would have. Wouldn't have fit very well with the message, would it?

I think there is this semi-blind desire/will to believe that one's own child is not at risk, when one is educated/into nutrition/giving all the other advantages, etc. If you've had a first who is healthy, I think this tendency is even greater. It's "It-Won't-Happen-to-Meism," and it's very seductive. I sense this delight, almost, on the part of the author—"Look! I got away with it!! I didn't fully BF and SEE, nothing happened! Wheee!!"

But you know what—no one is immune. Some people are lucky and some people are unlucky, that's all.

I come at this from the perspective of "Could I live with myself if…" I have lived the reality of having a kid with chronic, expensive, stressful health issues, and it freaking sucks. So, knowing what I know, living what we've lived, could I live with myself if I didn't do everything I reasonably could to keep my second child healthy? I could not.

For me the article is written from a place of unacknowledged privilege—the privilege of random health, of happening to not be the statistic.

[PatioGardener]

Originally Posted by loraxc

For me the article is written from a place of unacknowledged privilege—the privilege of random health, of happening to not be the statistic.

Thank you for this. I feel like I have been looking for a way to express this sentiment for ages but never found a succinct and elegant way to do. Your words are very powerful - I'll remember them.

[ursimama]

Lost issue of maternity leave

Rosin's article never mentions the issue that much of the burden she and other breastfeeding mothers experience would be lifted almost entirely by a guaranteed maternity leave for a year, with options for extending that year. We live in a terribly family and child unfriendly country. Her perspective is very limited in that she does not discuss European policies on maternity leave. While I think that breastfeeding can be difficult and draining for different moms in different ways, I really wonder her tone is so smug and so disdainful toward women who have tried to make breastfeeding work for them. I feel that any woman who breastfeeds should be supported.

[loraxc]

PatioGardener, glad it spoke to you.

[SleeplessMommy]

Originally Posted by ursimama

Rosin's article never mentions the issue that much of the burden she and other breastfeeding mothers experience would be lifted almost entirely by a guaranteed maternity leave for a year, with options for extending that year. ...

I agree totally about the maternity leave.

Letters to the editor submission form for Atlantic Monthly can be found here: http://www.theatlantic.com/a/submissions.mhtml

And my response:

Enough about whether or not breastfeeding is good for the baby.

Moms should start out breastfeeding because it is good for the Mom. Breastfeeding (versus purchased formula) saves Mom about $3000 a year. Breastfeeding helps Mom loose weight faster. And breastfeeding reduces the future risk of breast cancer.

[smeisnotapirate]

My letter to the editor:

"The Case Against Breastfeeding" was such defensive hogwash. I'm disappointed that the Atlantic doesn't have editors that require their reporters to do actual research - I wonder, will you continue to print any unsubstantiated rant a woman writes, in the name of "feminism?"

Ms. Rosin, with all due respect, I really don't think those mothers at the playground were ostracising you for your breastfeeding choices - I think they had a problem with your defensive tone. Your misguided notion that to be equal with men means to be the same as them smacks of reverse feminism. I am equal to my husband because I am intrinsically equal - because I can breastfeed my child and give birth - not because I continue to do it working full-time. Your article was particularly offensive to mothers who choose to raise their children from home - are we to think that you believe the only way to be "productive" is to work outside the home? That's hardly a feminist thought.

Ms. Rosin, please consider that you write from a place of luxury. You have children who have NOT been part of the statistics of the dangers of formula feeding, and you are from an economic strata that can afford the material costs of formula.

I would encourage everyone to remember that breastfeeding is normal - it is NOT best. Formula feeding is inferior. It is up to science to prove that formula feeding equals breastfeeding, not that breastfeeding is superior. Since no legitimate scientific study has done so, I continue to nurse my son.

By the way - this letter was written in 5 minutes, while I was nursing my son at the computer. It's amazing how productive one can be without having to mix bottles all day...

[PiesandAbrosmama]

go mama that was a hot letter! But good points

[*MamaJen*]

Originally Posted by Soxfan Mom

And by the way, I have worked on deadline plenty of times in the busiest department in a newspaper, and I found time to pump during the night. It's not that difficult. I get her point about how it's harder for women who work in waitressing, etc., but I had to laugh about her using being a reporter as an example.

I'm a reporter, and I find it quite easy to breastfeed my 14 month old.
I will say that my progressive lefty office makes a conscious effort to be family friendly. I took my babe to work with me for the first five or six months, I work from home one day a week, I flex out one afternoon a week, and I eat at my desk and use my lunch break three days a week to go nurse him. I was able to negotiate all that pretty easily.
Now, a waitress might have a harder time of it, but having done my time in food service, I'd say it's still possible.

[PiePie]

I just wanted to say that discussion of this article has crystallized and exposed rifts I have with other mamas (not on MDC), so I am so glad I can come here.

[jeanine123]

Originally Posted by Lizbiz

And crushed by that pressure, she's lashing out at the nearest enemy (well said, previous poster) - those who would daresay breast is best. Well, it is best. That's really all there is to it.

I think that this is a large part of what leads to rants like this article. Breast is NOT best, it never was, it never will be. It is the standard for our species, for any mammal. I think that placing it up on a pedestal by saying that it's the best way to feed your child, to nourish your child, places a huge target on it and makes it even more subject to the type of lashing out that is exhibited in this article. It is the standard to which everything else has to be compared, including formula. Not the other way around. We have spent many, many years trying to prove that breastmilk and BFing is better than formula when it should be the other way around. Formula needs to prove itself, it needs to prove itself to be an equal to breastmilk or pretty darned close to it. Breastmilk has already proved itself many, many times over IMO. If it hadn't then we would no longer exist as a species. Why did something that has been around for about the last 100 years suddenly become the standard instead of the substance that humans and all mammals have lived on for millions of years?

[MaryJaneLouise]

Originally Posted by loraxc

For me the article is written from a place of unacknowledged privilege—the privilege of random health, of happening to not be the statistic.

That's a good point.

And a disclaimer -- I'm not meaning this as an anti-FFer rant, truly.

But you know what I have found with some anti-BFing folks is, sometimes their kids DO have major health problems. And they STILL do not see the connections. It's quite frustrating, especially when discussing in venues other than IRL. When discussing BFing, they will loudly proclaim their kids the smartest, healthiest, most well adjusted kids on the planet and are JUST FINE THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

Then later, the will about having to put in ear tubes, or about their kid's asthma, or chronic diarrhea, or something. I think it's some level of denial going here, truly.