Christians, Muslims, Jews - same God or different gods? - Page 10

[TzippityDoulah]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

Now I took the "you" in that case to be singular, that is it applied specifically to her and not to all Samaritans. In any case, I thought that he was saying she didn't really understand the nature of the difference between Jews and Samaritans, that the differences in worship were not really what constituted that difference.

oooh interesting thought! I'm going to reread that story this afternoon.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

Now I took the "you" in that case to be singular, that is it applied specifically to her and not to all Samaritans. In any case, I thought that he was saying she didn't really understand the nature of the difference between Jews and Samaritans, that the differences in worship were not really what constituted that difference.

I do not think it can be intended that way. The woman says to Jesus, "Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem," which is when Jesus told her, "you worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews."

[Liquesce]

Originally Posted by Thao

Can you give me an example? Does Islam say this?

I can't remember if there are Christian scriptures that explicitly say this. I do remember studying it and being convinced that a literal reading of the New Testament demanded that one believe that non-Christians are going to Hell (the main reason why I am no longer a fundamentalist Christian) but I also spent several years in another denomination afterwards that interpreted those scriptures very differently.

If it is an explicit doctrine, not something based on scriptures that can be interpreted various ways, then I guess that's where my belief that all religions get some things wrong comes in.

Yeah, it occurred to me after I commented that with regard to specific doctrine I could only comment on that which I follow myself. Still, broadly, if it's interpretation ... then what? People who interpret the Christian view in a more exclusive way can not be said to speak for all Christians, but they certainly can be said to speak for their own Christianity. (I'm really interested in what the exclusive view is based upon, why, and whether or not the interpretations that lead to the view can be demonstrated to not just have alternatives but to be outright poor ones in and of themselves?)

Insofar as Islam is concerned ... there are certain things mentioned as illegitimate means of worship -- polytheism and idolatry, specifically. It is possible to believe in god and to also worship in illegitimate ways, but it is not possible to worship in illegitimate ways as a means to god. In the story of the golden calf, for example, as it is told in the Qur'an, it is pretty explicit that the people did not fully know they were wrong until after it was done, and that the error was in making an idol in the first place.

I suppose it would help to understand that Islam arose in a community of polytheistic idol-worshippers who the founders of Islam deemed to be unforgivably corrupt in the way of both beliefs and practices. Islam is heavily a rejection of the ways of the community. That said, the Qur'an is not really worded in any way that would support interpreting much of that rejection as relating only to that time and place -- as supporting the idea that perhaps those people were wrong, but if I worship idols here and now it might be a way to god which suits my own needs and personality. The Islamic view is that there is one way, and while divergence from that way does not equal "damned," divergences which contradict that way are flatly not of god.

[mammal_mama]

Originally Posted by Karenwith4

mammal_mama that was beautiful. Thanks for sharing.

Thank you, Karen!

[Bluegoat]

Originally Posted by mamabadger

I do not think it can be intended that way. The woman says to Jesus, "Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem," which is when Jesus told her, "you worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews."

Yes, I think you are right...

But it seems that the issue is still not really about the difference in the way they worship; it is about how God has decided to make the Jews his chosen people.

[mamabadger]

Originally Posted by Bluegoat

But it seems that the issue is still not really about the difference in the way they worship; it is about how God has decided to make the Jews his chosen people.

Yes, the Jews were chosen by God as His special people; but I would suggest that they were not chosen just as a kind of pet race that God decided, at random, to be especially nice to. They were chosen to receive the truth from the one true God, to be the people who worshipped God, were guided by His precepts, and to receive His Messiah. It is not as if they would remain God's chosen people if they had all decided to keep worshipping the golden calf or other idols; there are instances in Scripture of God correcting His people when they fell into idolatry. Also, outsiders sometimes converted and came to worship the God of Israel; there was Ruth, who was previously an idolator; and the Samaritains in the New Testament passage mentioned above, who were converted after hearing about Jesus. We assume that Ruth, who accepted the God of Israel, even though she was not a Hebrew by descent, became one of the chosen people by embracing the faith of the chosen people.

[TzippityDoulah]

:

I'm sitting this part out b/c I'm really taking it all in. I've enjoyed the back and forth as this is something my husband and i have been talking about recently...