is it possible to never punish--really never? - Page 2

[Dar]

I think, when I saw my child eating all that chocolate, I might say something like, "Sometimes when people eat a huge bar of chocolate all at once, their tummies feel kind of sick afterwards." Personal stories have always worked really well for me as a way of sharing information, so if you remember a time when you ate too much candy and urped, share it in a non-judgemental way. Rain has always loved stories about when I was a kid, about mistakes and hard time I had, and how I felt. I am careful not to imply that she will feel the same way, or have the same reactions - some people can eat a huge candy bar and feel fine afterwards - but there is a suggestion that she might, and it's normal and natural if she does. I even admit to embroidering the truth on a few stories, when I needed a very gentle, low-key way to discuss something she was sensitive about.

I think it's natural to overdo when something is new. When we first got our laptop we were both on it all the time, Rain playing games and me surfing at the speed of light, while cozied up on the couch. It was wonderful! But after a day or two I had a headache from staring at the screen all day, and after a week or two of staying up until all hours with The Sims Rain decided to start going to bed earlier. And we'd had desktops since she was 2, so it wasn't like computers were new to us.

Chocolate has always been around, so it's not such a big thing, although there are days when one of us Really Wants Chocolate in a big way (for me, a day or 2 before my period starts), so we may eat Ben & Jerry's for dinner with a side of Ghiradelli.

I have talked with about t effects of sugar on a body, especally refined sugars, and about the importance of protein. She was really succeptible to low blood sugar issues when she was smaller; she's better today. So a huge candy bar wouldn't make her tummy hurt, but it would make her really crabby a half hour or an hour later. We talked about this, and I would encourage some protein with sugary stuff, a glass of milk or piece of cheese (cheese and cake is a Yorkshire thinbg, and it's actually good!). It was about helping her have what she wanted without making herself sick, anmd since she wanted that, too, she was generally pretty agreeable.

If, OTOH, I waited until after her blood sugar had sipped and then tried to get protein into her, it didn't work so well, so being proactive was really important.

Dar

[captain optimism]

Thank you all for your excellent responses so far! I shared them with my dh and he had some great things to say. First it gave him a lot of insight into his own childhood behavior, which was interesting. He said that his mom did try to discuss things with him, with an eye to coming to some more rational behavior. He would feel very uncomfortable!

Some of this is comparing apples and oranges--my dh is remembering his behavior as a preteen and teenager and we are mainly, though not exclusively, talking about toddlers. (Dar, I don't know how old your daughter is.)

What I see here is that it's really tough to guide a child's behavior with zero punitive speech, anyway. That's not the same as saying everyone has to punish, just that no matter how hard you try, your speech may feel bad to your child. I guess it's something I'm going to have to both work on and come to terms with. I have plenty of time! One good thing is that my dh is super careful about our language with ds and I think that will help me a lot.

[Mommiska]

Your replies are pretty much what we did about the chocolate - we just talked about the possibility of feeling yucky after eating so much chocolate, and I asked them to talk to me before taking chocolate like that again.

Of course, when they find chocolate these days, they will still take without asking, but then I guess that is normal for a 4 year old and a 2 year old. What I don't like is that they run and hide with the chocolate, even though I've never punished them when I find them with chocolate that has been taken.

I even try to stay calm - just remind them that eating lots of chocolate isn't good for us and we need to talk about when and how much chocolate to eat. But then - I don't let them eat until they stop when I give them chocolate, so I guess that isn't much fun for them.

Dar - did you ever let your daughter, at a very young age, just eat as much chocolate/candy/whatever as she wanted - let her decide when to stop? I'm so afraid to do that, but I really want kids who know when to stop - and I'm afraid my restricting them isn't helping towards that goal. : I'm confused about this one.

The car seats thing - they were just having fun playing in the front of the car and didn't want to stop. Usually getting into the car seats isn't a huge issue, but stopping their play time (especially when they are being 'silly' together) to do something else is a big issue around here.

Understandably, I guess - who wants to stop playing and having fun to get in a car seat/have a bath/brush teeth/eat dinner/whatever? I can see their point of view, really I can! But sometimes we need them to do what needs to be done, you know? I try to give them lots of warning, we agree we'll have a set amount of 'silly' time and then do 'x', etc. and a lot of time all of those things work - I just wonder what you can do when they don't?

I'd also love input on what to do when they say hurtful things (I obviously have lots of questions about this!)? DD1 was calling me silly/stupid the other day - just trying it out, I think. I told her that it hurt my feelings when she talked to me like that. She just kept right on.

So, when 5 minutes later she asked me to read her a story, I told her that I still felt sad about being called 'stupid', so I didn't feel like reading a story right then.

So, she apologised and maybe 10 minutes after that, we read the story.

So - was this punishment? Or teaching her that her words affect other people? Any other ways to handle this?

[JeanetteL]

Question for Dar

I was just thinking more about this thread while I was cleaning up earlier - and I came up with a question for you Dar....hope you don't mind.

You seem, from all your posts here on this forum, to be strongly on one end of the continuum as far as parenting goes - the gentlest of the gentle discipliners . I am just wondering if there are any words/actions/circumstances that you consider truly off limits or totally unacceptable in your house (either now, or when Rain was younger – say, for instance, hurting a person or animal). If there are, I was just wondering how you handled (or would handle) those cases?

Thanks in advance for letting me pick your brain
Jeanette

[JeanetteL]

carolyn

Carolyn

So, when 5 minutes later she asked me to read her a story, I told her that I still felt sad about being called 'stupid', so I didn't feel like reading a story right then.

To me, this does not seem like punishment at all - or at least not like punitive parenting - although others may feel differently. From my viewpoint, what you did was give your daughter an honest response about how her words affected your feelings, and thus your desire to interact with her at that moment. You didn't make her apologize immediatly, or get angry at her and tell her that she was wrong or bad to have said such a thing....you simply gave her a very good experience about how words really do have an affect on people....

I think that you did a great job!
J.

[journeymom]

This is a really great thread but I only got about half way through it, and I wanted to say before I forget:

Wow wow wow, Piglet, your 12/26 post about your childhood very succinctly described my childhood! You put into words accurately the same thoughts and feelings I had about the way my parents parented me. They spanked me, and it wasn't the spanking that bothered me per se, but the attitude that went with it.

I think if parents can lose the attitude that "it's us against them!" and "We've got to get a handle on the little blighters before they get away with anything. (Because they're born wanting to get away with naughty behavior.)" then there's room for gentle discipline.

[Dar]

Rain will be 11 on the tenth.

I have tried restricting sugar, at various times. When she was having explosive low-blood-sugar outbursts at 6 I tried, and it became a huge hairy issue after a week and I stopped, and she ate a handful of chocolate chips and then said something like, "And now I want to eat broccoli, so please don't try to stop me because I want it!" Now she wants to give up sugar like her friends who are on the Atkins diet.

There are actually lots of things that are totally unacceptable to me. Hurting our animals would be, but it hasn't come up since Rain was old enough to understand what she was doing - I would be seriously worried about a 10 yr old who was intentionally hurting an animal. When she was little I did things like create places that the cats could get to but she couldn't, and remind her to be gentle, and not leave her unsupervised with them.

I did know a woman who wanted to raise her children in the "free", TCS-way, but her interpretation of that was that she should basically stand by while they did whatever, including hurting animals intentionally at 7 and 10, and destroying her home. I think a lot of it was due to her spending hours online and not much time with them, except whining at them every few hours to stop what they were doing, or stop bugging her. Kids do need parents, as involved participants in their lifes. I may not punish, but I'm there, commenting and advising and negotiating and explaining.

I think it's important that all children understand what behavior is considered socially acceptable, so they have the knowledge to decide whether or not to behave in this way. I also it's good to help them see the implications of their choices - if you talk about your birthday party in front of people who aren't invited, it may hurt their feelings. I think that's unkind. I value kindness. I can't think of a time Rain's been intentionally unkind like this, but there have been plenty of times when she has inadvertently been unkind because they didn't have the wisdom to see all the repercussions of her choices.

I also try to be honest about my feelings, and what I want to do. There are a lot of times when she asks me to read to her and I say I'm too tired, it's too late. And sometimes that's okay, and sometimes we negotiate - will I read a chapter if she gets the book and comes to my bed? Can we play frog juice instead? Will be have time to read in the morning? Generally we find a solution that works for both of us. If not, it's usually due to some larger issue, like the year Rain went to school everything got messed up, and doing away with the school piece cleared up nearly all of the other problems.

[chellemarie]

Originally posted by pamelamama
very interesting thread

captain optimism, you have great posts. I'm gonna start following you around mdc.

I do this already. I'm captain's cyber-stalker. We could be like a cyber-stalking team.

Do we have a creepy smilie?

Okay. Now I have to read the whole thread.

[e&r]

just thought I'd chime in

I mostly lurk, but found this thread facinating. What good mamas you are!

This is actually my first time on the "Gentle Discipline" threads, my DS is just 14 months so it has not been immediately relevant to my life 'til now.

I am a Montessori teacher, trained through AMI, and we were taught that basically the guidelines that everyone should follow (adults and children) are:
Respect yourself
Respect others
Respect the environment (all of the environment - this includes your house, car, belongings, as well as the bigger "environment")

These three things have been my guide for many years. They work!

Also, no punishment *and* no rewards. Alfie Kohn speaks to these issues well, and has spoken at Montessori conferences as well as to mainstream educators and businesses. This includes traditional "time out."

Sometimes, though, a child needs some space. Then the child should be treated well, perhaps isolated from a situation, and given an opportunity to choose some activity (someone above said that they do the same with their child - choose a space and an activity). This really works.

When I first became a teacher, mainstream teachers that I knew thought that I was, perhaps, a bit arrogant by stating that I don't believe that yelling works. They thought that it would be just a matter of time before I went toward the yelling-punitive model.

Well, I didn't. Respect worked. I truly respected the children, and they respected me. I've seen it work with many others, too. I know adults who had parents who raised them this way and they are wonderful people with wonderful relationships with their parents.

Keep up the good work, mamas, and wish me luck with my own. I know that being a parent is much more work and is much more challenging than being a teacher. As a teacher I went home at the end of the (sometimes long) day, and as I said many times to parents, "well, the children in the class don't see me in my underwear.", by which I meant that they couldn't push my buttons as easily as if we lived together and they knew every nuance of my existence.

Ellen

[ekblad9]

Wow! I love this thread! I've been feeling a bit lost lately and I think this brought me back. I'd forgotten how I had been parenting and let stress get the better of me. I have nothing to add but wanted to say thanks.

[TingTing]

There are lots of great replies here already...

In my experience, yes, it is indeed possible to raise kids without punishment. In fact, as someone who was raised in a house with quite a lot of yelling, time-outs and otherwise punitive discipline (albeit not corporal), working with kids (in Early Childhood Ed.) who'd been raised without punishment/rewards was precisely what opened me up to this parenting approach, so impressed was I with kids themselves. My first real experience with this approach was as a teenager when I was babysitting regularly for a single father. He was totally commited to non-violent parenting. He never, ever raised his voice at his kids, never punished, never rewarded. Coming from my house, it was a revalation! lol I was impressed with his self-control, and they were sweet kids, but I remember privately thinking, based on my own preconceptions about child-rearing, that they were probably going to be utterly wild adolescents as a result. Well, shock of shocks, I reconnected with the kids through a mutual friend after years of not seeing them (they'd moved) and they must have been the nicest, coolest, most thoughtful teenagers I've met. And no, they're not giving their father a harder time than any other decent kids their age.

Based on my own experiences, I think problems with non-punitive parenting often arise when a child's unnacceptable behavior is simply ignored. A friend of a close friend of mine who was ostensibly a proponent of non-punitive parenting used to laugh when her 3-4 year son threw toys, kicked plant pots and generally destroyed their home. "Oh dear," was about the most I ever heard her say by way of discouraging him. Naturally, he was out of control. Punishment is neither necessary nor ultimately effective, in my opinion, but we have a responsibility to convey to our children - in the kind of respectful manner we appreciate for ourselves - when something they do is innapropriate/hurtful and why. Like my old single-dad buddy, I would have taken such an opportunity to calmly, respectfully explain to my son or daughter why the behavior was upsetting to me, and swiftly shift the focus to co-operative resolution (ie. cleaning up).

[nancy926]

What a great thread -- thanks to all of you for all this wonderful info.

We are definitely going the GD route with DD (14 mos), but sometimes we hit sticky points. Like last night she wanted to give the dogs a treat (a dog biscuit). then another...and another....and another. DH wanted to make her stop, but I was fine with her continuing until she got bored with it. (So were the dogs!!) After about 6 feedings I asked if she wanted to go upstairs and read books, held out my hand for her to take, and off we went.

I guess if she'd wanted to feed them 40 treats, it would have been a different story...or we would have just gotten out the dry dog food and given her pieces of that instead.

Anyway...my "light bulb moment" came a couple of weeks ago -- dinnertime, DD in her highchair, throwing pasta on the floor. I freaked a bit, said something like "Well, you must be done," and took her out of the chair none too gently. SHe started crying and I said "and you're going to help clean it up!" Marched into the kitchen and got a cloth...and darned if she didn't get right down with me and start picking up pasta. It about broke my heart. I apologized to her for yelling...and really have not gotten upset about throwing food again. We clean it up afterwards and that's it. It's hard to break out of the mentality that she's doing "wrong" things "on purpose" -- that's so ingrained in a lot of us!

Thanks again for all these great stories and advice!

Nancy

[tofumama]

All I can say is WOW! I am so excited I can hardly type! I had no idea what GD was, (being a newbie and all) so I read. YAY!!! This is exactly what I am trying to do/want to do! I come from a VERY abusive background, and although I know I will never be abusive towards my kids, I can understand how some parents 'loose it'. Everything that has been said here is fantastic, wonderful advice. I do have a question...what is the deal with time-outs? Are they a bad idea??? My son is VERY intense, and he is one of those that sometimes gets overwhelmed and needs to leave a situation. Usually this means going into his room, either alone (if he chooses) or I go with him, hold him, we talk, calm down, etc. I have used time-outs maybe a handful of times for something really harsh like if he hits his sister, or bites (both have happened MAYBE 2 or 3 times) and I always tell him why he is having one, and I go to him after and remind him of other ways to deal w/ said situation, and we always end with a hug. (dh does the same parenting type stuff I do) So....I am confused ....

[NoraB]

I struggle very hard w/ this b/c I was raised in a very punative home. I learned to lie, sneak, hide, etc. I did not want the same thing for DD or any other children. I am still a work in progress though. Sometimes, when my emotional and/or physical reserves are low and DD is in high gear, I am so tempted to yell and/or hit. I am ashamed to say that I have hit my DD before. I was immediately sorry and my heart still hurts to think about it. I am getting better all the time though.

I have used time-outs maybe a handful of times for something really harsh like if he hits his sister, or bites (both have happened MAYBE 2 or 3 times) and I always tell him why he is having one, and I go to him after and remind him of other ways to deal w/ said situation, and we always end with a hug. (dh does the same parenting type stuff I do) So....I am confused ....

I think time-outs can work as long as it's clear they are for the little one's benefit and not a "punishment." If the little one is acting out and hitting, I'd say, "You seem really agitated right now. I think you need a little time to yourself. Let's go in your room and read a book...or listen to some music...or draw...etc" whatever makes the child feel better. You could also discuss some of the reasons why the child might be acting out, letting the child form the conclusions as much as possible.

I really liked the book Raising Your Spirited Child. It gave me so much insight into not only my DD but myself. Now that I understand why I react in certain ways, I am much more capable of dealing w/ my DD.

I also like the book Positive Discipline (though I hated the book Positive Discipline: The First Three Years ). That was my introduction to the idea of "no punishment." At first, I couldn't wrap my mind around the idea that discipline w/ no punishment was possible. I was against spanking, shaming, yelling, etc, but no punishment seemed like an impossible concept to me. Once I accepted the idea, my whole outlook on discipline chaged.

I also think many ppl see GD and "no punishment" as the same thing as "no discipline." I have explained the difference to ppl until I was blue in the face, but most ppl I've met refuse to see. I do think it's important to raise children w/ respect and to be respectful. It's okay to not want your child to color on the walls, or rip up your books, or kick, or hit, etc. The key, I think, is to convey the message w/ the same level of respect the parent wishes the child to display. KWIM? I think it's also key to get the child involved in the problem solving process. If the issue is leaving toys out, perhaps the family can have a "meeting" to discuss the issue. The parents can say that they are bothered by toys being left out b/c it makes more work for them and it makes the house less pleasant to live in, etc then ask the children what can be done about it. Then, every tries to work towards a solution that works for everyone. I think kids are also more likely to stick w/ a plan that they have come up w/ themselves.

I think it's also okay to have certain rules. Society does have rules and many rules have a good reason. We have a seatbelt rule in our car. Seatbelts are never off unless we are parked (not just stopped) b/c that's how we stay safe while driving. We do not hit ppl or animals b/c hitting hurts and it's not okay to hurt ppl. It's not okay to lie b/c lying is wrong (though we don't have that issue yet b/c DD is only 18 months).

[nancy926]

Just a quick comment on NoraB's mention of lying... to me, "lying is wrong" is sort of vague....as a kid I used to lie all the time because I feared my parents' anger. To me, lying protected me so it wasn't wrong!

I brainstormed a bit about lying and came up with these reasons...they might not all work w/a toddler but you never know.

lying doesn't help solve problems
lying can cause the other person to stop trusting you and wanting to be with you
lying doesn't make the situation go away (ie., lying about breaking a lamp doesn't fix the lamp)
lying can be dangerous (ie., lying about trapping the cat in the attic so no one knows where he is)


It's a fascinating thing, lying....does it happen less with kids raised with GD? Because to me, if I knew I wasn't going to be yelled at or punished for something I would be much more likely to tell the truth.

[Dar]

I don't think we have rules so much as philosophy of life...

Rain has lied about having brushed her teeth, and it's probably not a coincidence that this is the one issue I've always tended to obsess and become rigid over, since she was tiny.

The only other lying I can think of it not really lying, but "storytelling", when she was 3 or 4 or 5. She would tell me about fantastic creatures that had come to her room to play with her, for example...

DAr

[tofumama]

Thanks NoraB, I am definitely going to check out those books!

[NoraB]

Just a quick comment on NoraB's mention of lying... to me, "lying is wrong" is sort of vague....as a kid I used to lie all the time because I feared my parents' anger. To me, lying protected me so it wasn't wrong!

I totally see your point. As a kid, I learned to lie as well as I told the truth b/c it protected me from severe punishment.

I brainstormed a bit about lying and came up with these reasons...they might not all work w/a toddler but you never know.

I see your point here too. I think it's better to give specific reasons than to be vague. Thanks for the suggestions.

It's a fascinating thing, lying....does it happen less with kids raised with GD? Because to me, if I knew I wasn't going to be yelled at or punished for something I would be much more likely to tell the truth.

That's certainly my hope. I want my children to be able to come to me when they've made a mistake rather than hide it out of fear of punishment. But I don't know if any parent can totally avoid that happening w/ a child sometimes.

The only other lying I can think of it not really lying, but "storytelling", when she was 3 or 4 or 5. She would tell me about fantastic creatures that had come to her room to play with her, for example...

I definitely see that as different from lying. I know parents who don't understand the difference though and punish their kids for it. Oddly enough, my mom did understand my storytelling and encouraged it. Thank goodness.

This talk about lying reminds me of something my mom used to do that drove me nuts. She would deliberately try to catch me in a lie. She'd know I did something (knock over a picture or something) and then ask me about it as if she didn't know. Out of fear of getting spanked, I'd lie. Then, of course, I'd get spanked for both infractions. I think it's totally sick for parents to put their kids in a position to feel they have to lie, then punish them for it. If my child lied to me in fear, I'd feel sad rather than angry at him/her. I'd want to know what I did to make my child afraid to tell me the truth. KWIM?

[tofumama]

I also would feel really sad if my kids lied to me...I grew up in a house that you almost HAD to lie to survive, and it was out fo fear, then having the fear of getting caught, ugh. I know kids lie, its part of them developing their understanding of right and wrong, but I hope my kids never lie b/c they feel they have to to avoid punishment. My son is only 2.5, and if he 'lies' about something, I think its more b/c he doesn't understand, and we don't make a big deal about it, we just correct him...ie- 'Did you brush your teeth? Yes. Hmm, let's go check. (knowing that he didn't) Your tooth brush is dry, how about we brush them now/together/etc'...that's just an example, I couldn't think of an actual situation off the top of my head...