Honesty vs fibs for a four year old

[Rosehip]

X posted in childhood years.

How do you teach this? My DD is, well, imaginative. I think a lot of it is no big deal, just 4 year old confusion and imagination.

But some things are starting to be a bit of an issue. Her teacher (she's in preschool) told me that three times lately, she's said, when asked, that she flushed and washed her hands after using the bathroom when she hadn't. She also told her music teacher it was her birthday when it wasn't, and the whole class snag her Hapy Birthday. Today she told me she went swimming in the ocean (she had her pool swimming lesson). I've tried to explain what's true/what really happens vs. make believe.

Any tips here? How do you teach this?

[Mirzam]

By four years old most children know what a lie is and that it is wrong without being taught, even though they might lie. I remember quite clearly as a three year old in preschool, stealing another kid's giant eraser (I wanted it sooo badly), I knew full well it was wrong. I kept it for a night, and then returned it in the morning, pretending I had "found" it. Don't focus on the lie(s), but focus on the child and your relationship and why she is feeling the need to be less than truthful. Maybe there is a kid who she wants to impress, be friends with; maybe she is feeling jealous for some reason and feels the need to make herself look good. Why do adults make up stories? Insecurity is top of the list. No "teaching" necessary, but you can talk about lying but don't make her into a "bad" kid and don't do it in the heat of the moment. Do it when you are both calm.

[lilyka]

I would handle each of those situations differently.

Bathroom - I would explain to here that she is not telling the truth, and when we don't tell the truth that is called a lie and she needs to stop being dishonest when her teacher asks her about this. Her teacher perahps should stop asking her and just instead say something "lets go check and make sure you have flushed and washed your hands. " Part of telling a lie is loosing trust. At 4 I would tell her when her teacher can trust her to tell the truth she will not have to be checked up on all the time. I would also stres that it is ok to forget sometimes but if she does shejust bneeds to say so and go take care of it.

happy birthday . . . . sorry, LOL, thats kinda cute. I would just chat with her about why this is not right, why she did it and how nice it is when people treat us special on our birthday, etc . . . unless it happens again I wouldn't worry about it.

swimming in the ocean . . "Oh thats a good story! tell me more! did you meet any fish? mermaids" she knows you know the truth and sometimes kids just like to pretend.

[Super Glue Mommy]

Preschoolers may "lie" but they do not understand it is dishonest.


"Fibs told by younger preschool children - "The doll broke the toy" or 'I saw a giant at the park" - show either they muddle up fact and fantasy, or demonstrate an understandable desire to avoid getting into trouble. In middle childhood, though, we generally expect our children to be more honest.

It's only from about seven to eight years of age that children can fully understand the difference between truth and lies - before that they're not 'lying' in the adult sense, as they may genuinely believe they saw a fairy in the garden!

By about eight or nine years of age most children have an understanding of right and wrong. The development of conscience means your child will feel bad when he tells a lie - even though he may still do it."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/parenting/your_...stealing.shtml

I shared my insight and setbacks in this thread... though its a bit different for my son. he has language delays, and so while a 3-4 year old may be able to purposefully use language to share incorrect information, with children with severe language delays they may be unable to do so until 5-6 years of age - their lies are often just inability to use the right words to tell the truth... well thats what we are going through I realize your situation is a bit different.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...1#post13367331

[yentroc]

Originally Posted by lilyka

I would handle each of those situations differently.

Bathroom - I would explain to here that she is not telling the truth, and when we don't tell the truth that is called a lie and she needs to stop being dishonest when her teacher asks her about this. Her teacher perahps should stop asking her and just instead say something "lets go check and make sure you have flushed and washed your hands. " Part of telling a lie is loosing trust. At 4 I would tell her when her teacher can trust her to tell the truth she will not have to be checked up on all the time. I would also stres that it is ok to forget sometimes but if she does shejust bneeds to say so and go take care of it.

happy birthday . . . . sorry, LOL, thats kinda cute. I would just chat with her about why this is not right, why she did it and how nice it is when people treat us special on our birthday, etc . . . unless it happens again I wouldn't worry about it.

swimming in the ocean . . "Oh thats a good story! tell me more! did you meet any fish? mermaids" she knows you know the truth and sometimes kids just like to pretend.

:

We're going through some of the same things, dd is VERY imaginative. I actually remember as a child making things up that I truly did believe and they were really true for me. I think at that age, the line between "truth" and "fiction" is a little blurry.

My dd (just turned 4) told her preschool teachers that it was MY birthday one day (dd "celebrates" our birthdays every day).

But I agree with the above quoted post that there are things (the bathroom) where rules need to be followed and 4 yr olds need to be accountable for.

[Super Glue Mommy]

I remember when I was in kindergarten I had a leaf I was CONVINCED was a feather. IDK why. a kid ripped it and I said he ripped my feather and he said no it was a leaf and I was very insistent it was a feather. I wasn't lying though, to me it was a leaf, and if someone had said "thats not true" I wouldnt have believed THEM. lol

Also I try to approach the intent... I dont tell my son he is lying when he pretends its christmas and hands out invisible christmas presents to everyone in the house. I dont tell my son he is lying when he uses toy toosl to build and invisible house and points and says "that my house"

I guess it really depends if you think a child is lying to "manipulate" or not (deceitful lying vs imaganitve lying). At that age I dont think they are, but maybe I have a skewed conception because of my son.

I agree though, that we can model honesty and make believe, and explain when its appropriate to play make believe and when its not. I think its best to do this based on your child and how they are lying/what they are lying about, not on a certain age.

[GuildJenn]

Lying is very common in childhood. This is a great article about it:

http://www.healthline.com/galecontent/lying-1

"Making up stories is part of a normal fantasy life for young children. It is a positive sign of developing intelligence and of an active and healthy imagination. Preschool children who are beginning to express themselves through language are not yet able to make a clear distinction between reality and make-believe. Storytelling at this age is seldom an intentional effort to deceive. When preschool children do engage in intentional deceit, it is usually to avoid reprimand. They are concerned with pleasing the parent, and may fear the punishment for admitting a mistake or misdeed."

And how to deal with it:

"Children may observe much routine dishonesty in the home, school and surrounding culture. Parental examples of honesty in interpersonal relationships are critical if a child is to develop an ethic of truthfulness. Children commonly experiment with lying in the natural course of development. They need help recognizing and understanding the distinction between prosocial and antisocial lying."

[Rosehip]

Thanks all for the responses. As an update, I've been trying really hard to avoid asking her questions that might inspire dishonesty, with not much success. Example:
Me: "DD, please clear your plate."
DD: "I did." (she didn't, it's sitting on the table)

Me: "DD, please go back and wash your hands (as opposed to asking her if she washed her hands)."
DD: "I already did." (she did not)

It's non. stop. She pretty consistently lies to either avoid having to do a task she doesn't want to do (putting a toy back, hand washing) or to get something she wants (says she hasn't had dinner when she has b/c she wants to have what I'm having, which I was sharing with her anyway). I really don't know what to do. While I have no doubt that preschoolers are "creative," it's hard to believe that most of them lie this consistently, every day, multiple times per day. She's also told me that her friend's father had surgery (he did not) and told her whole class that her father lives in Australia (he does not - here, I realize that she didn't know the name of the town he lives in, and told her, and also talked about it not being ok to make up an answer if you don't know - say you don't know, or you forget)

In terms of role models, I'd say I'm a very honest person, and that we live in an honest household (with my parents). Her father (my X) is a phoney and a fraud. He doesn't spend much time w/them, however, less than 5 hours/week, I'd say.

I'll try to respond to each thought.

Uccomama - I have tried talking to her about honesty and making stories up and cannot get anything out of her, re: reasons. It actually just leads to more convoluted stories. Sigh.

Lilyka - Yes, some of the stuff is cute or creative. Some is not (the handwashing). I'll talk to the teacher about just taking her to check. We've been working on consistent handwashing at home.

Super Glue Mommy - what I'm really bothered about is the lying that I think is to deceive - to get out of doing things, etc. She's 4.25 years old, and has always been pretty socially adept and very verbal, and perhaps I'm wrong, but I do think she understands what happened vs what didn't happen. I don't think she thinks much before she speaks, but I do think she *gets* what's she's doing, to a degree (not the moral nuances, but knows that what she's saying is not actually what happened).

GuildJenn - I've started reading the article, thank you. I'm trying to figure out HOW to teach her the importance of not lying, and what the truth is, etc. Seriously. I've talked to her about it, and talked to her again, and again. It only seems to have exacerbated the lying.

I'm feeling very frustrated. It seems hard to get through an hour without a lie. I feel like I'm hitting my head against a brick wall, and am frankly a crappy mother.

[AliveMama]

I've noticed that alot of kids that age say what they *wish* was the truth. She wishes she'd already cleared her plate, she wishes she'd already washed her hands.

So why not empathize with her.

"I'm hearing that you wish you'd already cleared your plate so that you wouldn't have to do it. It seems like alot of work right?"

And then personally this is where I'd pull out Playful Parenting and gently tease the situation (not her - the situation) with big freindly smiles.

"It's soooooooo far from the table to the kitchen! *sniff* I don't know how you'll ever make it. I know. What if you picked up the plate and then took 1 step. Ok. Now take 2 steps. Wow!!!! Now, 1 more step. That's 4 steps. Can you take really tiny steps? I bet you could take even tinier steps. Can you take really BIG steps now?"

[Rosehip]

Originally Posted by AliveMama

I've noticed that alot of kids that age say what they *wish* was the truth. She wishes she'd already cleared her plate, she wishes she'd already washed her hands.

So why not empathize with her.

"I'm hearing that you wish you'd already cleared your plate so that you wouldn't have to do it. It seems like alot of work right?"

And then personally this is where I'd pull out Playful Parenting and gently tease the situation (not her - the situation) with big freindly smiles.

"It's soooooooo far from the table to the kitchen! *sniff* I don't know how you'll ever make it. I know. What if you picked up the plate and then took 1 step. Ok. Now take 2 steps. Wow!!!! Now, 1 more step. That's 4 steps. Can you take really tiny steps? I bet you could take even tinier steps. Can you take really BIG steps now?"

I like the idea of playful parenting - I've heard a bit about it here. Can you point me to a good resource - website or book?

I'm really fed up with the current cycles I'm stuck in w/DD. I need some new tools to handle things.

[AliveMama]

I really like playful parenting for the little stuff (or the stuff that should be little but it turns into BIG stuff for stupid reasons).

http://www.playfulparenting.com/ - there's also a book which I read.

Like alot of other methods of theories I think it goes WAY too far and becomes disrespectful of serious problems a kid has by turning them into a game. It's not appropriate for every situation like he tries to make it seem.

But for little kids? It's pretty good.

The thing I really liked about it was how it explained how kids connect through physical play. And it can really help when connecting to our kids to get into that physical play. When my DD is really whiney, wrestling with her on the floor for 10 minutes can completely change our day.

[lilyka]

I would say just be consistant with saying "No I can clearly see you did not **** lets go do it together." And i realize that a lot of people here to do not agree with this but at that age my child would also have externally motivating consequences (like time out) to drive home the point that she must tell the truth.

[Breeder]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

Preschoolers may "lie" but they do not understand it is dishonest.


"Fibs told by younger preschool children - "The doll broke the toy" or 'I saw a giant at the park" - show either they muddle up fact and fantasy, or demonstrate an understandable desire to avoid getting into trouble. In middle childhood, though, we generally expect our children to be more honest.

It's only from about seven to eight years of age that children can fully understand the difference between truth and lies - before that they're not 'lying' in the adult sense, as they may genuinely believe they saw a fairy in the garden!

By about eight or nine years of age most children have an understanding of right and wrong. The development of conscience means your child will feel bad when he tells a lie - even though he may still do it."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/parenting/your_...stealing.shtml

I shared my insight and setbacks in this thread... though its a bit different for my son. he has language delays, and so while a 3-4 year old may be able to purposefully use language to share incorrect information, with children with severe language delays they may be unable to do so until 5-6 years of age - their lies are often just inability to use the right words to tell the truth... well thats what we are going through I realize your situation is a bit different.

http://www.mothering.com/discussions...1#post13367331

Yep this. At four they often "lie" about things they want to be true. (When they say they didn't do something to avoid getting scolded or the birthday thing - who doesn't wish they could be treated like it was their birthday everyday?)

It's a stage which will in retrospect seem very fleeting.

[LynnS6]

She is trying to get out of doing something she doesn't want to do. Not very artful, but also not worth worrying about her future moral development over!

Originally Posted by ToastyToes

Thanks all for the responses. As an update, I've been trying really hard to avoid asking her questions that might inspire dishonesty, with not much success. Example:
Me: "DD, please clear your plate."
DD: "I did." (she didn't, it's sitting on the table)

Depending on my mood, I usually treat these things one of two ways:
The grumpy me:
"I still see your plate on the table. Please put it in the kitchen." So, just the facts and observations, no 'judgments'.

The Playful Parenting me:
"Oh no, your plate escaped. It must have flown back onto the table from the kitchen! Help! Please take it back to the sink and tell it to STAY THERE!" If she's going to engage in fantasy, I can do that too!

Originally Posted by ToastyToes

Me: "DD, please go back and wash your hands (as opposed to asking her if she washed her hands)."
DD: "I already did." (she did not)

Dd does this all the time. My response:
"I didn't hear the water running and I don't smell any soap on those hands. Would you like me to wash them with you or do you want to do it by yourself?"

I wouldn't worry too much about her telling people her dad lived in Australia - Australia vs. the next town over might be just as distant in her mind.


Playful Parenting is definitely worth reading. What I like about this is the focus on connection first and how he talks about needing to spend time with kids doing what they want to do. I disagree that his ideas don't work well with older kids - you have to change your definition of 'play' a bit, but I think that a lot of situations can be eased with some playful joking/teasing.

[Double Dip]

There is a book (Portable Pediatricain by Dr Nathanson) that describes a "portrait" of each age. My girls just turned 4 in January and I recall from that section that it is pretty much developmentally expected that children at this age believe that if they day it, it may be powerful enough to make it true. It is not the same concept as lying as we adults think of it.

Although the book may not be worthwhile to purchase at this point, the 4 year old section may be worth reading at your local library or bookstore if you get the chance. It decsribes typical behavior at various ages (0-5) in an anecdotal type way and then gives more details about what to expect developmentally and cognitively as well as addresses several concrete ways to meet the challenges and joys of each stage/age.

[pigpokey]

I am in a similar boat but maybe not non stop.

My young 4 year old absolutely knows he is lying and does it to get his way / avoid consequences / etc.

He also has extensive fantasy play apart from lying, that is sometimes irritating but not a problem. It's usually charming, but irritating when I am working on something and he will not respond to me because I can't remember to call him "baby squirrel" or whatever he is at that moment.

E.g.,
Grandma: Did your mom say you can use the hose?
DS: Yes.
Gma: If I go ask her what will she say?
DS: Uh, well ...

My older child did not have this phase (yet).

I don't think childhood untruthfulness necessarily leads to adults who can't be trusted either.

[4Marmalade]

My dd will be 4 in May and is doing similar things. I use many of the techniques that pp's have discussed but it can still drive me crazy. I try hard to remember that her "lies" are more her "wishes". Now when my 6 year old tries it I have less patience .

[Polliwog]

Originally Posted by pigpokey

E.g.,
Grandma: Did your mom say you can use the hose?
DS: Yes.
Gma: If I go ask her what will she say?
DS: Uh, well ...

This makes me uncomfortable. Grandma appears to be trying to trap the child in a lie. Why ask a child a question when you either already know the answer or if you aren't going to accept the answer.

I like Lynn's response a lot. Playful parenting goes a long way. I've used it with children in my home and at-risk children at work.

[Rosehip]

Originally Posted by BethNC

This makes me uncomfortable. Grandma appears to be trying to trap the child in a lie. Why ask a child a question when you either already know the answer or if you aren't going to accept the answer.

I like Lynn's response a lot. Playful parenting goes a long way. I've used it with children in my home and at-risk children at work.

What do you suggest when you get a response you suspect is not truthful, but you would have to verify to do it somehow? I'm not being snarky, but asking seriously.

Do you just never ask the child, just go directly to the other authority figure in situations like the above? For hose, you could substitute watching a TV show, eating dessert, etc.

What about other situations? I frequently get information about DD's schoolday that I suspect is untrue. Let it go? Ignore it? Follow up with the teacher? Or when she tells me her friend's father had surgery? I will definitely apply the playful parenting tactics to some situations, but there's others where I don't see how to use it - when the truth is not plainly evident and straightforward to visually confirm.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by ToastyToes

What do you suggest when you get a response you suspect is not truthful, but you would have to verify to do it somehow? I'm not being snarky, but asking seriously.

I've actually asked dd "Hmm... will daddy give me the same answer?" and I don't find it particularly harmful. The key, I think, is being non-judgmental when she comes back with "no, he'll say I already watched two things on TV." Usually, I'll say something like "oh, it sounds like you really want to watch another thing then, right?" And sometimes, I'll let her (even though we try to keep TV watching to 2 shows a day). So, she's learning by my actions that telling the truth doesn't always = no more TV or whatever.

If it's something that's not crucial, I wouldn't check up on it.

You might try reading "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" with her.

Dd and I also had a conversation a couple of months ago where she wanted to know what a 'lie' was. So, I made up some little stories for her (short - 2 to 3 sentences) and asked her, so if that happened, would it be a lie? She LOVED it and I think it helped. (At least the 'lying' decreased quite a bit. Now we're just back to defiant opposition!)

Something like "If you came home and said that K's dog got really sick and died, but K's dog wasn't sick, would that be a lie?" "If you told me you were going to take a bath, but you forgot, would that be a lie?" I was trying to get the point of intentionality home to her - it's OK to make mistakes. It's OK to forget. It's not OK to intentionally mislead someone.