Confrontation with another mom at open gym. - Page 5

[Heavenly]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

well, we encourage apologies as well, just not in a "or else" kind of way. there is no bottom line of apologize or xyz (such as us leaving) because I dont see HOW a child could not feel manipulated into apologizing at that point. its either going to be a power struggle (they feel SO strongly that an apology is not in order that they end up being punished for staying true to themselves) OR it's not a big deal (they give a sincere-sounding apology because they really want to stay and play) I learned VERY early what a sincere apology SOUNDED like - didnt mean my empty apologies were sincere, just convincing to my mother (satisfied here, didnt satisfy the other child, though I did later in life learn how to TRULY make amends)


(i replied within this quote in underline because im lazy



more underline lol

Edited because it is so not worth it.

[Heavenly]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

I think some people get more out of their children apologize then their children get out of it. This was the case for my mom. Her goal was for her kids to make her look good. My goal is for my children to show the good inside them on their own for the own benefit, not for mine. love you insight on this whole thing. I think its hard for some people to understand this the way you and I do. Do you think you are a sensitive person, and thats why you are able to pick up on the subtleties? That is the case for me. I think most sensitive people would understand why forcing or manipulate apologies are not really sincere even if they seem that way outwardly, but I can understand how many people who are not sensitive can't understand or "miss the mark" in understanding this.

Edited because it is so not worth it.

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by Lisa1970

I really do not think your son should have apologized. Plus, she really needed to get a handle on her spoiled child's behavior. Plus, the homeschool community is not big. Her child is young. It will not take long for her to run out of friends and homeschool things to go to.

I would have emailed her back and told her what I really thought.

Okay I'm confused. It was the OP's son who stole the boy's ball and ran off with it and then hit the same boy over the head. How does he not owe the child he hit an apology? I also cannot see how you have decided that the other boy is spoiled - his reactions to the situation seem pretty normal to me. While her reaction may have been extreme I understand her mama bear instinct to protect her child. I can't see why people would shun her as a friend for trying to protect her child.

[Heavenly]

Originally Posted by TCMoulton

Okay I'm confused. It was the OP's son who stole the boy's ball and ran off with it and then hit the same boy over the head. How does he not owe the child he hit an apology? I also cannot see how you have decided that the other boy is spoiled - his reactions to the situation seem pretty normal to me. While her reaction may have been extreme I understand her mama bear instinct to protect her child. I can't see why people would shun her as a friend for trying to protect her child.

[Super Glue Mommy]

the OP's son didnt "steal" the ball, it rolled away and he ran to get it in an attempt to initiate play. then the kids called him a name, and he hit, and the kid hit him back. so what we have is:

OPs child - poor initiating of play
C: name calling
OPs child: hitting
C: hitting

The OP sees what her son needs to work on and what part of this was his wrong. C's mama thinks her son did nothing wrong.

An ideal play out would be:
OP teaches her son how to initiate play, and shares with her son how it seemed to the other child that the toy had been stolen - teaching her child empathy. OP can also teach son that even if someone calls you a name that you can still be a kind person, and ways her son can do this without letting the other person pick on them (such as playing with another child instead)

C's mama could teach her son that name calling is not okay, and to have compassion towards those who needs are different then his own (such as the OP's child who is having a hard time learning to initiate play then some other children might) and also that it is not okay to hit and that next time a problem is escalating to ask an adult for help resolving the issue if they cannot resolve it calmly and gently on their own.

both parents could have worked together to mediate the problem.

OP could have apologized for her child.

Now, these thigns happen where we dont handle something the best way we could have at the time because it all happens so fast and its never happened before we have no previous experiences to draw from. So, the OP learned how she can handle it better in the future.

The only person in this who scenario who was completely out of line was the other mother, who was modeling aweful behavior by having an adult tantrum. Then she emails the OP a passive aggressive gaslighting manipulative email. No one is shunning her for protecting her child. The distaste is in her behavior after the incident, as well as the email that followed. And the best thing you can do with a toxic person like this is do your best not to engage them. Which is why I didn't recommend pointing out what her child did "wrong" because chances are that would only escalate this person - they would not be receptive, and her reply at that point would probably just upset the OP even more. It's futile. I recommend just thanking for the email, not giving her any leeway by telling her how you have "dealt" with it. Don't incriminate your son in any way. Don't point out anything about what her son did. I know its tempting, but it's best to keep it as a short sweet acknowledgment that gives no attention to the past and focuses on the confidence of a good future.

[LynnS6]

Originally Posted by Savoury

Back on topic cuz I need more advice...

She emailed me today.

I'd be sorely tempted to 'lose' that e-mail in my junk e-mail box, and then deal with it in person the next time we see them. It sounds like you've talked to your son, he's worked out that an apology is in order and he's willing to do that.

On the larger topic of apologies - in our family we talk about making amends, not just apologizing. Two reasons behind that: 1. Ds is not a verbal kid and he would sit for hours before offering a verbal apology. He cannot be coerced, forced, bribed, intimidated or anything else into SAYING something he doesn't want to say. 2. "Sorry" is too often flippantly tossed off and used like a "get out of jail free card". Child hits/name calls/bullies, child says "sorry" in a snotty tone, child acts like they've done the world a big favor and no more is required of them.

So, we focus on making amends. How can you help the other child feel better? (A hug, ice, a card, a letter, time.) A side benefit of this approach is that it works even if you don't feel like you've done anything wrong. You don't have to feel sorry to help someone else feel better. You simply have to acknowledge that another person is upset. That is a good life skill.

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

the OP's son didnt "steal" the ball, it rolled away and he ran to get it in an attempt to initiate play.



The only person in this who scenario who was completely out of line was the other mother, who was modeling aweful behavior by having an adult tantrum.

Actually the OP said that the boy dropped the ball and that her son took the ball and ran away - nowhere was it mentionen in the OP that the ball was rolling away.

I believe that the OP's son was also completely out of line when he hit the other child. I understand that name calling is very cruel but at 7 years old he should understand that hitting is wrong.

[Super Glue Mommy]

I agree the hitting was out of line for both parties. I agree the name calling was out of line. yes, you are right, he dropped the ball, though as I said it was an issue of poor initiation of play. It sounds to me like the OP's 7 year old does understand he is wrong and is willing to apologize. I actually think it says a lot about her son that he is willing to apologize even though it is likely the other boy will not apologize for the name calling. Aparently the OP has taught him well, that we can do the right thing even when we feel others are wronging us.

[Kidzaplenty]

Strange, when I originally read this thread, I got the impression we were talking about three or four year olds. I did not realize that we were talking about seven year olds. I think by seven they should have much more control over their behaviour. Although I do know they have their moments. I guess I was just equating this with my four year old that was hitting his brother at the moment I first read the thread.

[Super Glue Mommy]

they sure do all have their moments. and some children just have different needs, its hard to say because a child is a certain age they should have mastered something. It's like those who can't believe a child is 6 and not potty trained, but don't take into the account the child is autistic. Or the child who is 10 and cant read, but dont take into account the child is dyslexic. They pass judgement on what a child *should* be able to do because of the year that child was born in. it's sad really. Some children should be able to do some things, but I can't focus on some children. I focus on teaching my children what they need to learn at that time. and I also teach them to understand when someone else hasn't learned somethign they already have, even if they are the same age or older. It's funny how with milestones and academics people can respect that children learn at different rates, but when it comes to social settings they feel that x age means something is wrong if they don't know x behavior. The issue should be if they don't know x behavior is wrong, teach them that its wrong, and teach them what is right. It shouldn't be that "oh, looks its your birthday, you should know better then to hit now" I can respect this in the same way I respect that when my son turns 1 that wont mean something magical happened and he should stop breastfeeding. Or say he is 3 and still breastfeeding, I wont think he should have stopped by now just because most 1 year olds are weaned.

[Kidzaplenty]

I know what you mean. I try to remember that ages don't mean anything in an overall general way, although I have to admit that at first glance, I do tend to fall into the old "they should know that by this age" stuff.

I hate it when someone constantly asks a child, "Well? Do you feel any differently now?" on their birthday. Like they wake up in the morning and POOF! the are a different person.

I have the child that did not read until she was 8 so I know how it goes.

(Sorry if I made it seem like I was accusing based on age bashing or something like that. I was really just commenting on new information that I had not previously known.)

[Super Glue Mommy]

No, reading your post it didnt really seem that way to be honest, I just thought it was a good opporunity to bring it up lol. And I too am guilty of the "they should know by now" at first thought, I think its just the "norm" to think that way, and so for me, that thinking is default and then after I stop a minute, slow down and actually think, I realize the reality of it. Perfect example is my brother versus my kids. At 18 months and 2 1/2 my kids were both cleaning up after themselves, garbage in garbage cans, and dishes in the sink. My brother does not do this at 9 - BUT you know what? maybe he did it at 2 and 3. The novelty can wear off. With things like hitting, my brother at age 9 doesn't hit other kids BUT he tortures the cat. Not in an intent to be violent kind of way, but makes it a "bed" in a drawer and closes it in the drawer. Then he says that the cat went in there on its own and shut itself in. he's an immature 9 though, and probably more like a 7 year old. and a lot of what he does he should "probably know better by now" but people focus too much on that. It doesn't matter if he *should* know better by now, parent can do "everything right" and their child may still lag developmentally whether in an educational way or in a social way. what we need to focus on is the fact that they DONT know and they NEED to learn and how can we most effectively teach this in a way that will stick with them in the long term. When doing this with my own children I feel its best that I make sure their heart is in the right place, because good habits are great and all, but the one thing stronger then good habits is good intentions. The habit of apologizing is not as strong as the desire to make ammends (in my opinion) which is why we focus on that instead of just the words. How quickly my children apologize is not an issue. There are times my daughter does things that are wrong to my son and she will see before I can even talk to her (by the way I am comforting my son) that she has hurt him, and she comes up and no she doesnt always say "im sorry" but she WILL make ammends (today for example my son dropped his bracelet. she took it and he was really upset and I was comforting him. when she realized he still wanted it and was hurting she gave him the bracelet back AND offered him her favorite baby doll to play with as an offering to make amends... I didn't teach her that, but I suppose I model this a great deal when I make ammends with my husband complete with a cup of coffee

[Kidzaplenty]

I think your "making amends" is about like I consider our "forced apology". I want my children to say the "right words", but more importantly is the actions that "fix" the problem or make the offended person as better as they can. So, perhpas we are not that different. (That is why I don't realy like calling it a "forced apology" because it is not JUST about words that "fix" it all. It is about the actions that go beyond the words.)

As for milestones, I have dealt with this issue a LOT with my own Mom. My brother started to read at four. Fine. That is great. But when my own daughter still had trouble reading at seven, she began accusing me of not educating my children, of them being stupid and ignorant, and of me being a failure as both a teacher and mother. I never could get her to understand that my daughter has a learning disorder that caused her to not be able to read easily. It has taken years and even now at 10 she still struggles with it. But we are working on it.

Sorry for the OT story. I guess it is still a sore spot with me.

[Super Glue Mommy]

im not sure how you handle apologies or amends, but for me when I say forced apology I am refering to the "apologize/make ammends or else"

We would use a time in and address the behavior including making ammends, but there would be no "stay here until you are ready to apologize" or "we are going home if you don't apologize" because *I* feel based on my own experience as a child that it only motivates the child to make ammends or apologize without sincerity. and some children are better at seeming sincere then others. if a child apologizes on their own, knowing in advance there is no punishment if they dont, then I can trust it was sincere. and if its not sincere I don't want them to do it.

In the case of the OP her child needed to step back and realize the role he played in all of this before he was ready to make amends. his intent was not malicious when he took the ball, and then the child called him a name, so in her child's eyes he was defending himself when he hit - which is NOT okay, but I'm just saying from the childs point of view since in his eyes he wasnt the "first" to act out he needed more time to and also to learn that it doesnt matter if someone does something to you first or not that we can choose to be kind and that being hurtful is never okay.

I am so sorry you had to deal with that from your mom I go through similar things but its more just her judgement that im not as holy as her because I don't spank. other then that she can't really say her way is better for any reason other then "she said so"... I think she thinks she is better because none of her children have special needs, bt the reality is that both me and brother did/do and she just doesn;t raelize it... which is all still irrelevant anyway so I dont get into it with her anymore. every child is different.

[kalimay]

"they sure do all have their moments. and some children just have different needs, its hard to say because a child is a certain age they should have mastered something. It's like those who can't believe a child is 6 and not potty trained, but don't take into the account the child is autistic. Or the child who is 10 and cant read, but dont take into account the child is dyslexic. They pass judgement on what a child *should* be able to do because of the year that child was born in."

In the cases you describe though they are not hurting other children. If a 7.5 year old is acting more like a 3 or 4 year old I think they need to be supervised more like a 3 or 4 year old.


OP,
I am sorry about the way the Mom treated you. I am wondering if there has been a history of incidents before this one and she was at the end of her rope or if she witnessed more than you did during the open gym and snapped. I am guessing you won't want to hear this suggestion but I am going to put it out there. Do you think if your son and C were to have some supervised one on one time they could be friends?
This story reminded me of a boy at my DD's school. Many kids at school don't like him, they think he is mean. He loses his temper and hits and spits and gets a really scary look on his face when he is angry. But he does have some friends at school. They are all kids that his Mom has made a big effort to have over alot to help her son learn appropriate social skills and to help his friends understand the areas that her son has trouble controlling. It is really nice to see these kids stand up for him when he is having a difficult time. I wonder if your son and C could be an allies instead of antagonizing each other.

[Super Glue Mommy]

Children tend to regress in those harder moments. her child may not act like that all the time. and, it sounds like she WAS supervising very closely, as she saaw the whole thing that played out and the other mother didnt. I supervise my children very closely and they still get a swing in at eachother now and again, even if im 3 feet away. im not faster then superman.

[TCMoulton]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

Children tend to regress in those harder moments. her child may not act like that all the time. and, it sounds like she WAS supervising very closely, as she saaw the whole thing that played out and the other mother didnt. I supervise my children very closely and they still get a swing in at eachother now and again, even if im 3 feet away. im not faster then superman.

Actually the OP said in the 1st post that she did not see the entire incident:

I only happened to see DS hitting C the last time. I had him come over immediately and sit down, while I finished nursing the baby and getting DD off and running.

So it is possible that the other mom saw something that the OP did not which may explain somewhat her reaction to the incident.

[Super Glue Mommy]

I stand corrected on that, but it doesnt change how I feel about the situation and about forced apologies or C's mom's behavior and email. Or that closer supservision wouldn't have prevented the hitting from taking place. And apparently nothing stopped the name calling from taking place either.

[Savoury]

Well, our kids do have a history together but nothing horrible. C has teased my son and excluded him before. I said nothing to C's mom. C has physically hurt and teased my friend's children so they were in tears. C's mom did nothing. No one said anything to her. Maybe she just has glasses on when she views her child? She said she was teased and excluded as a child and is maybe projecting those fears and worries on C.

And please, before anyone thinks my DS is some sort of horrible hitting freak, it was a rare moment for him. He used to when he was younger because he did not know how to play at all. We have worked with him constantly. He just spent two days in a row initiating and playing with kids he had just met and there were no incidents. He is in a ton of activities and playdates with no problems. This was very rare. I am wondering if he reacted the way he did because of some past tension between he and C.

Regardless, as I said, I thought I handled it ok when it happened and I now realize I didn't and I could have done better. I will absolutely not let something like that happen again. I will handle it better and help my DS handle it better.

What I don't appreciate was her outburst (which she apologized for) or the tone of her email which was condescending and know-it-all. The fact that she accuses my son of acting out again and again. This signifies to me that he cannot do anything right in her eyes. And that her outburst robbed her of the opportunity to teach my son and I a lesson on how to handle anger and bullying. And that my son was the ringleader (he really is more of a follower) who orchestrated the grand exclusion of C when all the other kids said he told them he wanted to be left alone. ANd that this behavior is because we probably don't give him enough attention at home and all he gets from us is negative attention.

This from a woman who at one point before her outburst told her son to go cry about it in the corner because she couldn't help him.

See, I go thinking about it and get all riled up again. I need more time to feel zen about this.

[Savoury]

Originally Posted by TCMoulton

Actually the OP said in the 1st post that she did not see the entire incident:




So it is possible that the other mom saw something that the OP did not which may explain somewhat her reaction to the incident.

I did get the full story from DS and from the other mom in the email. I have left nothing out.

But because C was really upset over the incident (she said in the email he was sensitive) the rest of the open gym time spiralled out of control for him. C's mom blames DS for it all.

IF I had gone over and followed up with her and him over the incident with the ball, I think this wouldn't even be an issue. But I didn't and boy have I learned my lesson.