Tact-requiring church creche situation

[Smokering]

Arrgh. I hate situations like this, and as everyone on Religious Studies knows tact isn't my strong point: so help me out here.

Background: My church was at a pretty low point last year, with declining numbers and very few younger people (as in, me and DH were the only young couple, and our baby was the only baby). Recently we've had an influx of new families for various reasons - one other church in town kinda split up and some of them drifted over to us, and a few other people moved here from other countries and found us, and so on. So now we have four families, counting us, with pre-school-aged children.

Now, even back when we had families before, our church has never been very onto it with creches. Most of the families who came/come are of the 'creche is a necessary evil' school of thought, and prefer their children sit in church with them as a family unless they're actually causing a ruckus, in which case they get taken out by a parent and brought back in when they've calmed down. To this end we have a room in the hall with some toys and the sermon piped in.

Now two of the new people, who I shall mysteriously call Mr and Mrs F, have two preschool kidlings and take them out to the creche as a matter of course. So it didn't take them long to figure out our creche wasn't really very crechey, and Mrs F (who I think is fresh from a v bustling church with lots of young people and activities during the week and such) decided it need to be better organised. So she asked people to volunteer for creche duty, and when she asked me what weeks we couldn't do it (rather than actually asking if we wanted to volunteer, for which I admire her tactics if not her tact!) I meekly agreed to help. Rowan often ends up out there with me anyway, so I figured keeping an eye on her two rather sweet children wouldn't be a problem.

So anyway, I just got a mass email from Mrs F telling us when we were rostered on, and asking us to give us her schedules for May, June and July so she could figure out the next roster. She also enclosed a layout for the best way to set up the creche with various 'stations' and tents and toys, and a schedule for the session which includes morning tea, a story and craft. In other words, it's essentially a kindergarten session.

Which is problematic, kinda. For one thing, I don't want to run a kindergarten session every third Sunday! For another, I like to listen to the sermon out in the hall with the kids, which clearly wouldn't work in that kind of setting (very much interactive rather than just keeping an eye on the kids). For another, I don't think this model actually addresses the needs of the congregation. Apart from Mr and Mrs F, the other parents don't actually want their kids to be in kindergarten on Sunday mornings: they just want a quiet place where the kids can be noisy if they're being noisy, and where they can listen to the sermon without being embarrassed. So Mr and Mrs F's children will likely be the only kids in there most weeks. And I'm actually less likely to take Rowan in, because I don't want to get her addicted to Fun Creche as contrasted with Boring Church, you know? So if I want to listen to the sermon and take Rowan out I'll have to hang out in the church foyer like some of the other parents do, which isn't soundproof (but piped and more or less out of sight for the babies to toddle around).

So, yeah. I guess I can cope with running a session every few weeks, although I'd really rather not (simple Sundays being a Thing of mine); but I'm afraid Mrs F will be offended that Rowan isn't attending the creche on a regular basis. Not to mention that even if I did bring her in, I'd stay with her, because she's just started having separation anxiety. Last week DH took her out, and I followed ten minutes later when I heard her wailing from the other building. Turns out DH was in the church foyer because Mr F had persuaded him to leave Rowan in the creche, saying he'd get DH if she cried. I went in and the poor dude was wailing and bereft, sitting on Mr F's knee while the kids tried to comfort her (they are sweet kids!). But Mr F seemed a bit aggrieved when I took her away, and made noises about how she had to get used to it and how his son 'doesn't want Rowan to go, do you son?' I didn't want to be rude, but I wasn't leaving Rowan in there to cry and I wanted to hear the sermon (Mr F had turned off the sound system in there, so I couldn't just stay with her). So DH and I spent the rest of the sermon kinda loitering outside and in the foyer with Rowan, where we could still hear the sermon thanks to a bellowy visiting preacher.

Wow, this is a novel. Sorry! Anyway, is there anything I can do? Can you think of a way to tactfully warn her that her creche won't be likely to contain any other kids than her own; or even better, to try to get her to scale down the organised aspect of it so other parents will be happy to use the room? I realise this is just a parenting styles thing as much as anything. And the Fs have a wee bit of a reputation for being easily offended, so I don't want to seem like I'm rubbishing her hard work or slighting her ability to look after Rowan. Should I stay out of it as much as possible, or what? Mrs F is nice; she just has some bright ideas which aren't really likely to go over too well in our church. She wants to start a playgroup at church too, but I don't think any of the other mothers want to actually go to one, let alone help run it - you know? Help me out here!

[Bluegoat]

Wow, that's a juicy problem. I'm not so great with confrontation - I tend to be subtle for people to notice.

One way around it might be to set up a Sunday school committee - that would make sure nothing radical got done.

So your church doesn't have a tradition of having an organized nursery. One question might be if that is related to you not having many young families? If so, then Mrs F might actually be on to something. I have noticed anecdotally that churches with active Sunday schools seem to attract a lot of young families. This may be because their parents need a break, which is perhaps not the best reason for people to come to church.

Would it be possible to have the baby area for moms with babies separate from the "kindergarden" area? I've seen that at some churches and it seems to work ok. It might seem odd with so few kids, but then you would be all set for more to come along.

If it gets to where you have enough kids that you really need to address their religious education, though, you are going to have to decide what you want as a church. Mrs F can't be dictating the policy all on her own. The pastor gets paid to deal with difficult tact situations like this, some might say. (Perhaps not enough though.)

[Smokering]

So your church doesn't have a tradition of having an organized nursery. One question might be if that is related to you not having many young families? If so, then Mrs F might actually be on to something. I have noticed anecdotally that churches with active Sunday schools seem to attract a lot of young families. This may be because their parents need a break, which is perhaps not the best reason for people to come to church.

Yeah, possibly. The thing is, in the past when we did have a lot of families a fair proportion of them were still of the 'kids-in-church-with-parents' school of thought, so there still weren't enough kids who actually went to creche to make full-blown organisation worthwhile. It wasn't perfect, and one very large family did end up leaving (non-acrimoniously) in favour of a really big church where they had an efficient creche system. Now the kids are older they frequent our church again sometimes, though.

It just seems like overkill to have pre-emptive creche, as it were, for only two children. She has it organised so there's a main person-in-charge and a helper every week, which means the relatively few people who've volunteered will all be on quite often without much to do. I suspect we'll usually just tell the helpers 'it's OK, you can go back into the service' most weeks. The thing is, I think Mrs F thinks that once the creche is up and running all the other parents will be delighted to drop their kiddies off there; but I'm pretty sure that isn't the prevailing mindset. Most of the parents keep the kids in church by choice, not necessity, KWIM?

Would it be possible to have the baby area for moms with babies separate from the "kindergarden" area? I've seen that at some churches and it seems to work ok. It might seem odd with so few kids, but then you would be all set for more to come along.

That's not a bad idea, although it could be tricky with the sound system. What might work is having the foyer redone a bit into a cry room - soundproofed or glass-windowed or something. Mum suggested bringing it up at the QBM, which is this week. It wouldn't solve the problem of Mrs F being offended that we weren't utilising her lovely creche, but it'd solve the listening-to-the-sermon-with-an-active-baby thing to some degree.

The pastor gets paid to deal with difficult tact situations like this, some might say. (Perhaps not enough though.)

Unfortunately the pastor is my father, and while a lovely man and a great preacher, social interaction isn't his thing. He's a bit Aspie. (And he chose to become a pastor, I know, I know...). I'm not sure how he would be likely to make the situation less tense, KWIM? Mum often takes some of the tact issues off his hands, but she's scared of Mrs F. So!

[JMJ]

I'm one for honesty. If you let this go on and get more and more upset about it, you're not helping anybody. If you're honest, you may be able to work for a better solution.

I would start by praising any of her ideas that you can. For example: "I really appreciate all your efforts to create a space for our children. You have such great kids, and I do want to make time for our children to spend together."

Then, I would explain and ask her to respect my parenting style: "To help raise Rowan in our faith, we would like to invite her to be part of the congregation as much as she is able, and while we may take her outside the chapel when she is having a hard time, we would like to bring her back inside as soon as she has calmed down. We would like to attend church together as a whole family and prefer not to give Rowan alternative activities that would distract her (and us) from the service."

Finally, I would make suggestions and perhaps invite her to help brainstorm ideas that would work for both of you. You could meet once a week or so to hang out as moms and let your kids play together. You could explain that you'd be willing to sit and listen to the sermon with well behaved children in the creche once a month, but you'd like to be in the church the rest of the time.

I hope that gives you some ideas. I hate being afraid that I'm going to either offend somebody or explode one of these days. Good luck.

[wombatclay]

Yoicks.

It does sound like a case of good intentions gone over the top. I guess I might foward the emails to the minister with a brief letter explaining your concerns... that you don't want these new members to feel unwelcomed, or like their time/energy is being wasted or un-appreciated, but you're also concerned that their enthusiasm may end with hurt feelings. Then it's in your minister's court so to speak.

Starting a child care group is another great idea... that way this couple will be able to contribute (and even chair the group) but they'll get feedback from everyone and no one will stand out. Our UU church is re-orging the sunday school program and it was announced during several services and put in the bulletin and the weekly email that the RE program was seeking input/visions/"what RE means to me"/"what the RE program should do" and also announced that we'd be trying all sorts of things over the coming months and feedback was appreciated.

So perhaps a similar announcement ("We're seeing a wonderful growth in young families and are going to be experimenting with our child care/RE program organization. Please let us know what you think/need/like/don't like!") would take some of the pressure off?

On a more interactive note, do you know anything about the community this family used to attend? Some communities specifically endorse child rearing programs that don't mesh well with AP/NF priorities and it would be handy to know if their previous community had some sort of "new parent" class that might be influencing their opinions on how independent a child should be. Maybe invite the whole family over for dinner, or one of the parents out for coffee, and talk about their former community and their hopes for the new community. Mention that the baby room has always been pretty "laid back" and you don't want them to feel let down if the new organization doesn't go over really well since many members of your congregation prefer keeping their children in the pews.

And as for the roster... ummm... perhaps suggest that each parent host the creche in whatever manner they feel most comfortable with? Sort of a "I bet more parents would be comfortable volunteering to staff the creche if they were able to personalize their week" or something like that.

Good luck!

ETA- just saw your note about your dad, so scratch that bit!

[Freefromitall]

If you're uncomfortable saying something directly to her, is having the pastor speak to her about an option?

I guess I'd say something like, "I think it's a neat idea to have someone scheduled to supervise in the creche on a regular basis, but I think the kids might be a little young for organized activities. I'd be happy to volunteer to supervise XX times a month, but I'm really not interested in teaching a preschool class right now. I don't have the time to commit to that."

It does sound like she wants to set something up that's more along the lines of a jr. church class or a sunday school class. Which, considering the age groups (infant-3yrs) that used the creche at our former church(es), strikes me as kind of odd.


ETA: just saw that your dad is the pastor n/m about that then

[Black Orchid]

Hey, I just wanted to add in that I think it is illegal to have only one adult in the room alone with the kids... at our church, we are required to have two adults regardless of the number of kids in the nursery. I believe this is to prevent/verify (shudder) child abuse/molestation.

So just some insight into the teacher/helper thing.

Sorry, don't have any insight into the other parts. Our church has an official "nursery" that is manned by a teen and an adult. Parents rotate, some do more duty than others.

It does sound like you might need to move toward a decisions on purpose/need for childcare or separate place for parents to go with babies. But it should be an all-church decision... not just the random decision of one family.

[Smokering]

Thanks for the responses! I wish I could hash this out with Mum, but our phone's not working; very pesky.

Mrs F has suggested she and I get together every fortnight to pray and chat and read the Bible, which I think is a great idea. I should offer to babysit, too; Mr F hinted about that recently. I suspect their church (in another country) had a really good social networking-type system and lots of young people, so she's used to doing a lot of social stuff with people from church. Unfortunately I don't have a car and Rowan goes to bed embarrassingly later than Mrs F's kids; but if she was OK about transporting me and the baby to their house and back, and if Rowan's evening noises wouldn't wake up her kidlings, I guess that'd be better than nothing... um, would it?

So perhaps a similar announcement ("We're seeing a wonderful growth in young families and are going to be experimenting with our child care/RE program organization. Please let us know what you think/need/like/don't like!") would take some of the pressure off?

I think this really is a good idea! I'll be curious to see if the Fs come to the QBM tomorrow night; they're not members but everyone's welcome to QBMs, and it might be a useful time to thrash some things out regarding the creche and cry rooms and stuff.

Well, I'll answer her email now! She asked that everyone who got the emails re creche reply so she knew we'd read it (did I mention she's slightly scary?). I'll ask her when we should meet up next, and we'll see how it goes... I hope I'm not painting her in a bad light here! I actually like her very well; she's nice and has cute kids and isn't afraid to shake things up a bit. She just seems a bit over-eager and offendable, which scares me.

[TzippityDoulah]

I totally get oyou on this!!

she is clearly not used to a "family church" style. i grew up in big churches and thought you had to have nurseries and kid classes all during service. in my first family style church i ws baffled. what would i do with my child in service!?!? i offered to set up classes insisting kid need classes so they didn't get bored and hate church :doh I was so insistant thinking perhaps nobody else had a clue what they were doing. I totally didn't get that they wanted it this way...

and 10 years later i would NEVER attend a church with any formal nursery again. my kids stay with me, period. always. and if they leave, we leave to the back. sometimes a break or a potty trip or whatever. but we all learn togethr as a family. (though I'm not opposed to some kid-free time to learn some adult issues... but not through the whole service!)

perhaps she thinks she is filling in on a need bc no onelse is able to? it's likely in innocense. maybe this is something that deserves a church stance on? (for lack of a better word?)many people have NO clue how to do church when they are not in a mega church style setting.

[TzippityDoulah]

black orchid - it isn't illegal, it's just against a lot of church's policies. but it's no more illegal than having one adult babysit your kids in your home... or whatever.

[zoebird]

this might sound radical, but just do it your way. when it's your sunday, do it as you would anyway. when it's not your sunday, use it the way that you did before (or just loiter in the vestibule if you need to).

she'll figure out it's not working when it doens't work.

[spero]

I thought you were going to complain that your church's outdoor creche is still up (like our is)! : Seriously, I've never heard a church nursery/preschool referred to as "creche".

You need to be brutally honest with Mrs. F. Explain that you didn't mind helping her out the one time, but that you didn't intend it to become a permanent thing. If she's put out, that's her problem, not yours.

Originally Posted by Black Orchid

Hey, I just wanted to add in that I think it is illegal to have only one adult in the room alone with the kids... at our church, we are required to have two adults regardless of the number of kids in the nursery. I believe this is to prevent/verify (shudder) child abuse/molestation.

It's not illegal, but many church's do have policies that require more than one adult per group.

[Shantimama]

In some churches, having doors with windows in them exempts the need to have two adults present at all times.

[Smokering]

I thought you were going to complain that your church's outdoor creche is still up (like our is)! Seriously, I've never heard a church nursery/preschool referred to as "creche".

Hehehe. Might be a NZ thing? Call it the cry room or parents' room or whatever. For you a creche is what, a Nativity scene?

In some churches, having doors with windows in them exempts the need to have two adults present at all times.

Our creche room is in a different building from the church itself, so I'm not sure that'd help: at least, we could do it (in theory), but someone would still have to come in the main door and go down the hall to see what was going on. I think Mrs F just chose two people to cope with the expected hordes of kids, or maybe because she likes to chat to the other mothers, but maybe she's more safety-savvy than I! I can ask her.

She'll be over here with her kids in an hour. I sent her an email yesterday, as jolly and tactful as I could make it, with 'come over for morning tea' and 'can we babysit sometime?' sandwiching the main issue. I just asked if she was interested in attending tonight's QBM to talk about her plans for the creche so we were all on the same page, and warned her not to be disappointed if some of the families didn't want to use the creche; and I said that even I preferred to keep Rowan in church with us, but that it wasn't always possible because she was boisterous. I tried to be excessively tactful... did I mention this SO isn't my thing?

Anyway she wrote back a rather terse email saying she'd be here after 10:30, and sent another email to all of us she'd emailed about the creche to say she wanted to make it clear that the kiddies didn't have to stay in creche the whole time, despite the schedule: that they could come for the whole time or 'just the sermon or whatever'. So I'm not quite sure what to make of that: she does come off as terse in her emails as a general rule, so I can hope she's just being efficient.

So now I'm gona go frantically clean my house before she gets here... on her way back from the gym, no less, which just puts her way out of my league in the mommy stakes to begin with. Why am I never one of the cool kids?

[TzippityDoulah]

I would be prepared for her feelings ot be a bit hurt. but that doesn't mean you're doing anything wrong. it's just hurtful in general to be told something you're trying to do for good, isn't so good. even if nobody is being mean about it. just be gentle is all. and give her time to get over it if she gets angry.

[astrophe27]

Just be honest.

Say "It is great what you are doing! But that's more than I thought I was volunteering for since I still want to be able to hear the sermon."

And if you feel like tempering it you can offer to make the kid's lemonade or snack or whatever before the service so you can "still contribute to the effort but on a scale I can better manage."

A.

[sarahwpen]

well, i don't know exactly how you feel on this really, but i am like you. I come to church to learn, as well as for the social stuff. And i don't bring my kids just for a kindergarten session. I don't think anyone else should either. But that is my opinion and we all know that opinions are like butts. Everyone's got one, but no one really wants to see anyone else's.

I would say that i have changed my mind after thinking it over, and i don't really think that this is right for me and my family. If she want's further explanation, then you can go into how you don't feel the need to leave your daughter in there on a regular basis, you feel it detracts from your getting to hear the sermon, and whatever other negative effects you feel it will have on YOU and YOUR family. Those are your main reason for saying "i am not able to join you on this". You can explain that you have no objection to HER doing it if she feels led to do it. You can also say that you would be willing to KEEP an EYE on the kids WHEN you happen to be in there with your daughter. You could read a bible story to them, that doesn't really require any prep work, and is plenty valuable. If she gets snippy with you about it, kindly tell her that there are all different parts of the body of christ, and you are not this one, but that you appreciate her attention to needs and that she obviously has a talent for organization.

[AutumnSunshine]

Oh my god, you sound like me with my kids at the mosque! I never, ever send my kids to the "kids room" because I teach them to sit quietly and participate. Of course I bring notebooks and crayons so they can be quiet during the sermon. Then I ask them to put them away and participate in the actual prayers. People often look at me like I'm the only weird one, my kids somtimes ask me why they can't go play with the other kids in the other room, but I stick to my position. I really, really believe that children should be welcomed and enabled to participate in worship services alongside the adults and not segregated somewhere else. This is traditionally how it has been done for millennia and I believe it should continue.

I actually got into a situation because of this-- on Eid, which is like our Christmas, when the services were being held in a hotel ballroom for a large multi-city prayer event-- the staff wanted to insist that I take my kids to a "moms with kids room" which was a substandard area away from the main hall where everyone had piled their shoes, there were no decorations, and we would not be able to even see the congregation. Three times, I told them that I believe children should be taught to behave and be a part of the community gathering and that if my baby cried, naturally I would take her out. They tried to tell me that "last year, the noise of the kids made it so that nobody could hear the sermon." Actually, I was there the previous year and I saw what happened-- it was women, not children, who yapped through the whole sermon and honestly the guy who gave it that year rambled on for an hour with a series of unconnected stories nobody could understand. (The sermon shouldn't have been more than 15-20 minutes for that occasion.) Finally, the whole staff of the event ganged up on me and told me I had to leave, at which point I got upset and left and took my kids and spent the rest of the morning in the car. But I never, ever went back to that event have and stayed home and prayed at our small town mosque. Although somebody told me that the following year they started allowing children in again the next year. Ha!

So I totally understand where you're coming from on this, and I just wanted to let you know I have been through some of the same things. Good luck with your church.

[VisionaryMom]

I tend to be more like Mrs. F. My personality tends toward "see a problem, find a solution," but I'm usually clear that if I'm overstepping (especially in new situations), to let me know. That said, if you approached me and explained that you weren't thinking of something so formal and that you don't think that's the prevailing sentiment at that church, then I'd be receptive to hearing it. In fact, I'd want you to tell me rather than build up resentment about it.

It's only fair to her, too. If she has the need for a church with children's activities and/or just lots of organization (me! me!), then your church may not be the place for her. It's better for her to be equipped to see that difference now rather than work tirelessly for a year before realizing it (been there).

[zoebird]

i wanna speak about the gym thing. it fits in with the creche thing.

what i'm noticing is that some parents come from an experience where short term, programmed child care is normal and being with ones kids (or wanting to) at the expense of a clean house, time at the gym, or even time in church is very weird indeed.

i'm experiencing this now in my own life. people who assert that they are supportive of me raising my child in a continuum concept-ish way (even though they don't know what this means) keep trying to "give me opportunities to get away" and "offering advice so that i can have more independence."

the truth is, i do not want these things. i do not want to put my child in the gym's freaky child care. i do not want my kid to go to the creche for activities with someone else so that i can 'enjoy a sermon in peace.' i don't want to 'drop my kid off for the day' so that i can have 'time with my girlfriends.'

i just do not want these things. and that is ok and i am cool. ;D