Optimal Diet / Jan Kwasniewski

[hummingmom]

Just wondering if anyone would be interested in a discussion of Jan Kwasniewski's "Optimal Diet."

It was developed a couple of decades ago, and it's quite popular in Poland, though still not very well known elsewhere. It's low-carbohydrate and very high-fat, with an emphasis on organ meats, cream, butter, cheese, eggs, gelatinous broths, and fatty pork products. The basic idea is that you have to keep your carbs, fat, and protein in a specific "optimal" ratio, which works out to about 80% of calories from fat. Even by TF standards, that's a lot of fat. For instance, only a few types of cheese have that much. Of course, you can always spread butter on the other kinds. The diet is supposed to be successful at putting many different health problems into remission -- including diabetes and autoimmune conditions -- and it's also recommended as a regular way of eating for everyone, including during pregnancy and lactation. (Dr. Kwasniewski is very pro-breastfeeding, and has harsh words for those who think it's weird to nurse a 4- or 5-year-old, LOL.)

Two of the books have been translated into English, but you have to order them directly from the publisher in Poland. My copies just arrived today; I've only had time to glance at them, but I'm really looking forward to reading them through and trying out this theory of "optimal nutrition."

[hummingmom]

Some interesting ideas I've come across so far:

- The "optimal diet" is contrasted with the more common "pasture" and "piggish" styles of eating. "Pasture" is a high-carb, low-fat, grain- and plant-based diet. It's basically the way peasants ate in most cultures. According to Kwasniewski, it's not ideal, but it's not terrible, either.

"Piggish" is pretty much the typical affluent Western diet that mixes substantial amounts of carbs, fat, and protein all together (like a bucket of slops ). This is supposed to be very bad; I haven't read all the details, but I'd guess it's because the body can function as a carb-burning system or a fat-burning system, but not both at once. According to this theory, the absolute worst approach is to get 35-40% of calories from carbs, and the rest from a mix of protein and fat. He believes that such people would be much better off with 60% of calories from carbs... though of course the OD, with only ~10% carbs, would be better still.

This would help to explain why some people (like my DH) seem to gain weight, and not be especially healthy, when they shift toward a more TF way of eating. They've increased their intake of good fats, but they're also eating too many carbs and too much meat -- maybe because their feedback mechanisms are out of whack, or maybe just from long-standing habit. Even if all the foods they're eating are nutrient-dense, they still crave more food than they need. The author of A Life Unburdened had this problem, and found that he had to practice strict portion control, even after going TF.

- According to Kwasniewski, people with the best health and longest lifespan tend to be on the small and slim side. Optimally fed children will likely be smaller than their peers, and this is a good thing. We shouldn't strive to have children who are tall or stocky, as this is often a sign of endocrine disruption caused by a faulty diet. Ideally, menstruation shouldn't start until the late teens; if it starts at age 12 or earlier, it's a strong indicator of hormone problems. (I've heard this last point from many other sources that I consider reliable, and it fits with what I've observed in my own family.) The phenomenon of early puberty is associated with a shift toward "piggish" diets; "pasture" and "optimal" eaters tend to have slower development.


Lots to think about there. Feel free to dispute.

[suzukiaustin]

Originally Posted by hummingmom

- According to Kwasniewski, people with the best health and longest lifespan tend to be on the small and slim side. Optimally fed children will likely be smaller than their peers, and this is a good thing. We shouldn't strive to have children who are tall or stocky, as this is often a sign of endocrine disruption caused by a faulty diet. Ideally, menstruation shouldn't start until the late teens; if it starts at age 12 or earlier, it's a strong indicator of hormone problems. (I've heard this last point from many other sources that I consider reliable, and it fits with what I've observed in my own family.) The phenomenon of early puberty is associated with a shift toward "piggish" diets; "pasture" and "optimal" eaters tend to have slower development.

Aaaaah, interesting. Makes me feel a little better about my slender paleo-eating kiddos. I'm going to read a little more about the Optimal Diet and get back to this post.

[spartz]

I thought that was interesting too - my lo is definitely on the small side but somehow she's sturdy but slim at the same time. Sounds like an interesting book

[hummingmom]

Haven't been able to get back to reading the books yet, but just wanted to share some more links:

Praise the Lard -- "The 'Polish Atkins diet' recommends eating prodigious amounts of animal fat. Can this possibly be good for you?" (Chicago Tribune, 2004)

New Diet: 'Fit Through Fat' -- short news piece with video (CBS Evening News, 2005)

Give Kwasniewski's Homo Optimus Diet a Try -- a brief summary of the diet, with additional links (newtreatments.org)

Hyperlipid -- a blog about very-high-fat diets in general. Has some specific discussion of the OD, especially in the comments section. Lots of interesting stuff.

[momofmine]

thanks for those links. I think this makes a lot of sense. Where did you order the book from? That hyperlipid blog is pretty convincing about fats. Are you staying totally SCD legal at the same time?

[hummingmom]

The books are only available from the publisher in Poland; there's a link on the main English Optimal Diet site (see the first post), as well as on the newtreatments.org site. They actually showed up quite fast after I got around to placing the order. It's a bit of extra work, as you have to fax them your signature for the credit card payment... what can I say, I'm getting spoiled in these days of Paypal and one-click ordering. :

After reading some more, I'm a bit confused about how a child or a pregnant woman would go about transitioning onto the diet. It sounds as if the rules are somewhat relaxed for them; they're supposed to be able to eat according to instinct, and find their own ratio, within reason (i.e., you serve a variety of "optimal" foods, and don't make high-carb treats available). But this presumes that they've already been on the diet for a while -- or, in the case of children, that they were weaned onto it. If you take it up later on, there seems to be an initial stage of major ketosis and often weight loss, lasting a few days for children, and a few weeks for adults. I don't think this would be advisable during late pregnancy, and I'm not sure about how it would work for my skinny DD1 either. She tends toward low blood sugar, and often gets sick before breakfast if she doesn't eat a lot of carbs at dinner. She also has some fat intolerance; this has improved since she went GF, but I think it would be best to wait a while to see if it improves even more.

In any case, I've had to put off experimenting with the diet, as I have a GI bug that I'm pretty sure I picked up from my darling toddler. (It's likely not diet-related, as she and I are eating quite different things these days.) So I'm back to scrambled eggs and chicken soup for now. When I do get around to trying it out -- which will probably be after the new baby is born -- I'll definitely stay 100% SCD legal. It looks like the person who wrote the newtreatments.org article is on the SCD as well.

Meanwhile, I'm going to keep the carbs reasonably low, and enjoy cooking yummy treats with my freezer stockpile of organ meats, Organic Prairie bacon, and US Wellness ground pork that's "72% lean" (i.e. 28% fat, LOL). If I happen to exceed my optimal carb range, and slip into piggishness along the way.... well, you are what you eat, right?

[momofmine]

I'd like to read more about it, though feeling like I don't have a lot of time right no, but I have realized that having enough fat is key for me. I used to think it was protein, and that's part of it, but as long as I am eating enough fat, I feel so much better, less tired, no cravings, etc. As soon as I go too high on the carbs, the carvings start and the cycle starts all over again.

[hummingmom]

Last night, I re-read parts of Nutrition & Physical Degeneration, trying to see where the different societies might fall on the pasture/piggish/optimal scale. I wrote a detailed post about this, but it got erased somehow. Anyway, it looks like the Swiss villagers were fat-burners. Weston Price says that their slices of rye bread were accompanied by equal amounts of cheese, and they also drank whole cow's or goat's milk. They also evidently ate butter (given the high value they placed on the June butter), and they drank bowls of cream as a treat or a health tonic. There's no mention of sweets; if they had them, it would likely have only been on special feast days. Maybe a honey-rye cake? Yum yum.

OTOH, the Gaels in the outer Hebrides appear to have been pasture-eaters. Their only animal foods were fish and shellfish, which are high-protein and relatively low in fat, so they wouldn't have been able to eat a lot of fat without getting a great deal of excess protein (which WAP says didn't happen in traditional societies). It looks as if they got the bulk of their energy from oatcakes and oatmeal. They were also healthy until refined foods were introduced, which kind of challenges the notion that northern Europeans aren't adapted to eating a grain-based diet. Although, given that the Swiss mountain folk were said to have "some of the finest physiques in all Europe," there's some evidence for saturated animal fats as being a more ideal source of energy.

Then, out of curiosity, I took a look at the WAPF board members' food journals on the "How We Eat" page. This is pretty old information -- I'm not sure if they still eat this way -- but still, it was interesting. Sally Fallon's Day 1 is the closest to "optimal" eating: 70% of calories from fat, below 20% carbs & protein. The other two days, she eats a fair amount of sweets (2 tbsp raw honey & 3/4 cup ice cream respectively), which makes a big difference in the ratios. Still, she eats a lot less carbohydrate than do many TFers... including, until recently, my own family.

Mary Enig eats a fairly typical American diet, but with TF versions of everything, apart from occasional indulgences like organic oreos. This is fairly similar to how our family used to eat. She spends all her time in the Kwasniewski "Forbidden Zone" of 35-45% calories from carbs. Yikes. (BTW, I find it quite amusing that JK's "Forbidden Zone" is pretty much as same as the "Zone diet," which is 40% carb, 30% fat, & 30% protein.)

Geoffrey Morell floats in and out of the FZ, with the consumption of raw honey and ice cream being the deciding factors. Same thing with Cherie Calvert, whose extra carbs come from honey, juice, and dried fruit... and Linda Forristal, who goes from 16% carb on day 1 (with a breakfast of fried eggs and toast), to 33% on day 2 (with a breakfast of pancakes, maple syrup, and fruit salad).

Tom Cowan's menu is interesting. It has moderate carbohydrate and reasonably high fat, but it's also very high calorie... almost twice what a typical adult male is supposed to require... so it ends up being very high in protein, over 200 grams/day. This is a no-no by Dr. K's standards. Dr. C must have very strong kidneys. How on earth does he manage to put all this food away, anyway? Is he building the pyramids single-handedly or something? LOL

[hummingmom]

I found some more detailed diet information for the Gaels and Swiss on the PPNF web site. The data was taken from a journal article written in 1933 by Weston A. Price. The protein/fat/carb numbers aren't given, but from my calculations, the Swiss mountain valley folk actually tended toward the higher-carbohydrate end of things, with 20% calories from protein, 35% fat, 45% carbs. The Gaels of the Outer Hebrides were around the same for carbs, but they had a lower fat intake than the Swiss, and about 30% of calories from protein. This was a surprise, since WAPF claims that such high protein levels are dangerous and weren't consumed by healthy primitive societies (see their critique of the Zone diet).

It isn't clear if Price's lists were supposed to be examples of what a typical adult would actually eat in a day, or if they were more of an average of the intakes of children, adults, different seasons, different activity levels, etc. From his writings, he was clearly more concerned with minerals and fat-soluble nutrients than with calories and macronutrient levels. Still, it's interesting data.

[hummingmom]

In a different thread, I mentioned the claims that the Optimal Diet can put type 1/insulin-dependent diabetes into remission. Just wanted to add a couple more links that address this subject. (There are said to be hundreds of successful cases in Poland, but it appears that most of the data and testimonials haven't been translated into English.)

Optimal Diet -- Treatment of Disease
Optimal Nutrition versus Atkins diet (PDF)

[vbactivist]

subbing. thanks

[quietserena]

I have been thinking about this all day long and boy, these diets seem so very right!

Thank you OP for bringing this to my attention. Now I've got even *more* reading to do!

[Brookesmom]

Thanks for the "food for thought".

[farmerjess]

I have been playing around with this diet for a few days and am also really trying to transition to eating more local foods (pork, pork, pork... (pastured of course)). I am eating sausage or thick bacon for breakfast and using the grease to sautee beans or veggies throughout the day. It tastes great and I feel ok, but I am getting some gallbladder area pain that I usually don't get even when I eat high amounts of coconut oil or olive oil. Does anyone know how I can digest pork fat better?

[farmerjess]

i think it may be a stomach acid problem a/o enzyme problem. either way, i think you have to have really strong digestion to eat this way.

i am going try some of the ideas on this thread:

http://www.mothering.com/discussions....php?t=1063558

[Hibou]

:

[hummingmom]

Pain in the liver region is mentioned in Optimal Nutrition as a possible side effect early in the diet. Dr. K says that this can happen when gallstones are shrinking and getting ready to pass out of the gall bladder. He suggests eating smaller portions more often, to reduce the strength of the gall bladder's contractions, until the stone has passed and the pain goes away. If the symptoms suggest that a stone is causing trouble when passing through the bile duct (continued pain, dark urine, yellow stool), he recommends taking a pain reliever/antispasmodic and going to bed, and letting the stone work its way through. He says that it's extremely unlikely that a stone would be trapped once it gets into the bile duct, since the duct is the same diameter all along its length.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the diet has other "rules" besides the quantity of fat. It's considered essential to have several eggs per day, or a couple of eggs + a few extra yolks (with some of the yolks raw or lightly cooked), as well as bone broth soups and organ meats pretty much every day. These foods provide the vitamins, minerals, and amino acids that are necessary for good digestion.

The OD also doesn't allow for a large amount of vegetables, beans, and other fibrous foods: "Fiber is literally a load of cr@p that results in a weakening of the system." The carbohydrate allowance can be taken in the form of grains, potatoes, or other starchy root vegetables, or (if desired) from fruit. Non-starchy vegetables are used sparingly. Dr. K points out that vitamins were only discovered due to observation of their associated deficiency syndromes, which occurred in societies that ate diets based on plant foods. He says that vitamin deficiencies, including scurvy, are unknown among people who eat plenty of meat, organs, and eggs. (I'd certainly believe that about raw animal foods... not so sure about cooked, though.)

With all these factors involved, it seems as if the best way to try out the diet would be to use the suggested menus on the web site. The trouble is, they're very challenging for Americans to follow, on both a cultural and practical level... especially on Day 5, when you're supposed to have homemade headcheese for breakfast, and homemade blood sausage for dinner. Personally, I'm not squeamish about organ meats, but I don't enjoy the prospect of trying to *find* half a pig's head, let alone having to prepare it. I've made brawn with just pig's feet before, and I've found it quite tricky to get all the little bones out. Not to mention that you're left with a very greasy mess to clean up.

I guess this is why the diet hasn't caught on much outside the expatriate Polish community. They even have an Optimal Diet restaurant in Chicago. Without that kind of support -- or an alternate set of menus, which provide similar ratios and nutrients with easier-to-manage recipes -- I'm not sure the diet is going to take off here any time soon.

The Hyperlipid author is British, and he seems to have incorporated the OD principles into his diet, without necessarily copying all the particulars. In particular, he doesn't seem to eat a lot of very exotic "variety meats"... mainly just liver & kidneys. For now, I've been following his example.

[NoTiGG]

Call me vain... but when I eat too high a percentage of fat I notice that my face gets rounder. Also looking at cultures who ate alot of fat predominantly.. such as the eskimos.. I do not find them to be a beautiful race and I think it has to do with their diet.

Honestly I think the key to health is insulin and therefor the proper balance of fat, protein, and carbs is whichever ratio has the lowest insulin impact.. And I think it is the zone diet where they say 40% complex carbs, 30 fat and protein. But I could be wrong......

Another thing I read about alot of fat is that it inhibits your secretion of acid in the stomach which could disrupt your digestion of the protein that you do eat.

I am not saying that fat makes your body fat... which it doesn't seem to especially the animal types from grassfed with the natural CLA.. but I think it makes your face rounder

[Brookesmom]

Originally Posted by hummingmom

Haven't been able to get back to reading the books yet, but just wanted to share some more links:

Praise the Lard -- "The 'Polish Atkins diet' recommends eating prodigious amounts of animal fat. Can this possibly be good for you?" (Chicago Tribune, 2004)

New Diet: 'Fit Through Fat' -- short news piece with video (CBS Evening News, 2005)

Give Kwasniewski's Homo Optimus Diet a Try -- a brief summary of the diet, with additional links (newtreatments.org)

Hyperlipid -- a blog about very-high-fat diets in general. Has some specific discussion of the OD, especially in the comments section. Lots of interesting stuff.

Thanks so much for these links! I especially like the Hyperlipid blog and have read half of it already this week. I have been motivated to cut way back on grains and omega-6 vegetable oils. I think they have been compromising my weight and my blood sugar and maybe my thyroid. I will keep you posted.