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Optimal Diet / Jan Kwasniewski - Page 2

post #21 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by hummingmom View Post
I guess this is why the diet hasn't caught on much outside the expatriate Polish community. They even have an Optimal Diet restaurant in Chicago.
I've read a couple of mentions of this in articles, but never seen anyone give a name of the deli or restaurant. Do you have any more information about this? Thanks!
post #22 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoTiGG View Post
Also looking at cultures who ate alot of fat predominantly.. such as the eskimos.. I do not find them to be a beautiful race and I think it has to do with their diet.
oh, thanks!
post #23 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kl5 View Post
I've read a couple of mentions of this in articles, but never seen anyone give a name of the deli or restaurant. Do you have any more information about this? Thanks!
From what I've heard, this is the place; it's on Milwaukee Avenue.

Calma Optimal Foods

HTH... If you get to go there, have some extra sausage for me!
post #24 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by desertpenguin View Post
oh, thanks!
Yeah... I'm not sure what to make of such a comment, except to say that I disagree strongly with that whole line of thinking (in more ways than one). Even if we set aside the issue of denigrating other racial/ethnic groups, there are so many things that seem attractive to various people, but are really quite unnatural and unhealthy: the "emaciated supermodel" look, foot-binding, those neck rings... So I'm just not seeing the logic in judging the appropriateness of one's diet by examining the shadows of one's profile in the mirror every day.

BTW, in homeopathy, a thin face with prominent cheekbones is associated with the syphilitic miasm, which is an inherited taint caused by a relative with syphilis somewhere in the ancestral line. Despite the popular notion that such cheekbones are "glamorous," the homeopath would see them as suggesting a family tendency to heart disease, cancer, mental illness, violence, serious birth defects, and many other disorders that are prevalent in modern life (though, interestingly, not found among the Inuit or other societies studied by WAP). If that could be cured by some extra helpings of pate and bacon, it would be wonderful indeed.
post #25 of 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by hummingmom View Post
If you get to go there, have some extra sausage for me!
I will most definitely check it out and report back. Thank you!
post #26 of 75

interesting thread!

hummingmom, how is your diet coming along?
there is so much info out there on the www.... it's nice to hear from actual people, not marketers!
post #27 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bella_stranger View Post
hummingmom, how is your diet coming along?
All good so far, thanks. I'm still trying to balance my meals, but will occasionally snack on extra protein or fruit if I feel like I need them. I'm a lot less hungry than I remember being at this stage of my other pregnancies, but I'm gaining the right amount of weight, so it seems as if I'm well nourished.

It will be interesting to see if my blood pressure goes up at the end of the third trimester, as has happened with all my previous pregnancies. There were never any other signs of pre-eclampsia, but still, it caused a lot of worry, and I'd be very happy to avoid it this time. Dr. K also claims that women on the diet will have a painless childbirth; not so sure I believe that one, but it would certainly be welcome.

I'm still trying to figure out whether or not to try the Optimal Diet for the children. It's one thing to put oneself on such an extreme way of eating, but it takes more of a leap of faith to do it with a three year old. I've thought about just limiting concentrated sweeteners and fruits, and letting them choose their own proportions of everything else, but I'm concerned that they'd end up eating too much protein.
post #28 of 75
wow, a painless childbirth! interesting. you'll have to report back on that one
I had a bit of high blood pressure at 41 weeks of pregnancy.... mostly because I didn't want "them" to induce me, so I would get "all worked up" at appointments. when I went into actual labour, my blood pressure was normal! go figure!
were you on a much higher carb and protein diet during your last 2 pregnancy?

I am trying to figure out my protein balance and trying to find healthy sources of fat that arent dairy and are lower protein (my daughter and I are dairy intolerant at the moment), any suggestions?

congrats on your wee one on the way
post #29 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bella_stranger View Post
were you on a much higher carb and protein diet during your last 2 pregnancy?
With #1, I was eating mostly TF and following the Brewer diet. Lots of high-quality fats, but also lots of grains, potatoes, meat, fish, and cheese... probably much more food than I needed. When my blood pressure started going up, I increased the protein even more, adding extra yogurt and other protein-rich dairy (which didn't seem to help). I gained 50 lb., which seems really excessive in hindsight. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think women in traditional societies typically gain anywhere near that much.

Kwasniewski talks about the "obesity of the poor," which is caused by lots of cheap carbs and a scarcity of good quality proteins and fats. This reminds me of the high incidence of pre-eclampsia in the poor Southern women that Dr. Brewer worked with. Getting extra protein certainly helped them. But I haven't eaten anything resembling that kind of diet for the last 15 years. I've been on and off dairy, but I've been fortunate enough to always be able to have meat and fish. : If I ever became obese, it would be what Dr. K calls the "obesity of the rich." So maybe I had the "gestational hypertension of the rich?" (I've heard it speculated that PE and GH are caused by the same underlying mechanism, but with GH your organs are healthy enough to handle the extra burden, whereas with PE they start to fail. It makes sense that my organs would be in better shape than those of a woman who was living on Wonder Bread.)

With #2, I was on the SCD, so I was relatively limited in carbs, but I did have a ton of protein, maybe even more than with #1 (baked goods made with nut flour and cottage cheese, lots of meat and eggs, yogurt, etc.).

#3 was very different. I had little appetite, especially for meat and other "heavy" foods, and was craving salads and vinegary things. I did eat pretty well, with adequate but not excessive protein (mostly from dairy), though I probably went a bit heavy on fruit and refined GF breads. It turned out that the baby was born with congenital defects, which appear to have been there since the first month of the pregnancy. I think my body somehow knew that the extra protein could cause trouble for her. At 18 months, she still doesn't like meat... though she loves fatty cheese, and will eat butter by the fistful.

Quote:
I am trying to figure out my protein balance and trying to find healthy sources of fat that arent dairy and are lower protein (my daughter and I are dairy intolerant at the moment), any suggestions?

congrats on your wee one on the way
Thank you. Here are some non-dairy sources of fat:

Most recommended:

egg yolks (you can use the whites in baking)
fatty cuts of meat
beef tallow or lard -- the best all-purpose cooking fat; it's worth rendering your own, if you can't find an additive-free brand

Less highly recommended, but very good as a supplement to the above:

nuts with a high proportion of fat, such as walnut, pecan, or macadamia
mayonnaise made with decent quality vegetable oils
olive oil

Many people also use coconut oil and other coconut products, though I'm not sure where they rank on Dr. K's scale of "biological value."

You might also look into Barry Groves. He promotes a similar type of diet, but with 60% fat rather than ~80%. His recommendations are close to the "modified Optimal Diet" that I'm doing at the moment, with its more generous allowance of protein and carbohydrates. The Groves plan is relatively easy to follow in everyday life, when eating out, etc. The Optimal Diet is more extreme, though it seems to be well worth it for those with serious health concerns. Maybe for everyone else, too, but it's hard to say with the current state of the research.

This is Barry Groves' web site: http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/
post #30 of 75
Thread Starter 
Just got back from a prenatal visit, and my blood pressure is indeed starting to creep up again. : I wasn't really surprised, as I haven't been feeling great today. We're having an early heat wave, which always hits me hard... so I've been eating less carefully than usual, and I was likely dehydrated as well. (I get dehydrated very easily on plain water, and I didn't have any electrolyte drinks in the car.)

I'm thinking that maybe I should try to follow Dr. K's advice a bit more strictly, especially with respect to protein, to give my kidneys as much of a break as possible. His recommendations for pregnancy would keep me at the lower end of Dr. Brewer's range of 80-100 grams. I've been aiming for closer to 100 up to now, sometimes going a bit over. So I'm going to try to cut back slightly in terms of quantity, but try to do better at getting an optimal balance of amino acids.

With this in mind, I stopped by my favorite specialty grocery store on the way home, and got an awesome selection of organ meats: kidneys, sweetbreads, tripe, lamb's tongues, and pig skin. I also got some hazelnuts in the shell, which I'll be soaking and drying for snacks. And then there's bone broth, raw egg yolks, raw cheese, and the grass-fed liver and spleen we have in the freezer... those are some fine quality proteins.

The only trouble is, in this weather, I have no desire to cook. I guess I could just throw all the organ meats in the blender, bake them in a loaf pan with some bacon on top, and call it "Kwasniewski mystery meatloaf."
post #31 of 75
I'm going to come back to respond to everything else later today, but I wanted to post this here now so I'd remember to comment and ask about it here:

http://www.poopreport.com/Doctor/how_poop_works.html

It was linked in the chat thread in allergies by whoMe, and everytime I read something like this, I am just more confused, because it is the low-fat, high-fiber line. But we are trying to do higher fat and lower fiber.
post #32 of 75
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by momofmine View Post
It was linked in the chat thread in allergies by whoMe, and everytime I read something like this, I am just more confused, because it is the low-fat, high-fiber line. But we are trying to do higher fat and lower fiber.
Hmm, I probably shouldn't have clicked on that link before breakfast... LOL.

If someone has digestive problems with a high-fat diet, it usually means there's something wrong with their bile production & delivery system. This could be due to a deficiency in one of the B vitamins or other nutrients (I seem to remember choline is involved?), or to an untreated gluten intolerance.

Hyperlipid: Gluten and Gall Bladders

Anecdotally, my five year old used to have a fat aversion on a gluten-containing diet -- she said it made her tummy hurt -- but she's had no sign of problems with fats since going off gluten.

My mother has also had problems with fats since childhood (they used to call it "biliousness"), and is on medications for other digestive problems, but she seems to have no interest in trying a GF diet. She'd rather just give up butter, and keep the bread. Needless to say, she finds our way of eating quite alarming. She hasn't visited since we started the Optimal plan... I hope she doesn't run screaming from the house.
post #33 of 75
Thread Starter 
Here's a pretty thorough page about choline. It turns out to be very important for handling fats.

Raw or lightly cooked egg yolks are considered a very good source of choline, but it sounds as if it's also very important to get adequate levels of other associated nutrients, especially folate. That isn't going to be easy on a low-carb, lowish-vegetable diet, unless you're eating organ meats regularly. Liver has quite a lot of it (as with almost every nutrient I can think of).
post #34 of 75
interesting. I saw butter listed as a source choline ... I wonder if that would have enough. I pretty squeamish about organ meats.... sweetbreads are organ meats, right?
post #35 of 75
I'm bumping this because I am still curious.
post #36 of 75
hummingmom, if you're willing to get into green juicing, you can avoid the fiber (if that's important to you) and get quite a bit of folate in not that many calories (still keeping the carbs low, I mean).
post #37 of 75
Thread Starter 
Sorry I wasn't clear; I do eat a lot of organ meats (they're a major part of the Optimal Diet), so I'm not concerned about getting enough folate myself.
Liver is by far the best source, with 3x as much folate as spinach. And we still get our CSA box, so we're having about the same amount of green vegetables as before we started this way of eating.

My post was in response to momofmine's comment about people who have trouble digesting fats. That hasn't been a problem for me, nor does it seem to trouble others who've followed this diet. I did have occasional slight discomfort in the gall bladder area during the first few days -- which Dr. K says is due to stones shrinking and working their way out -- but nothing else since then.

My problem right now, ironically, is getting enough carbohydrates. I was aiming for 100 g/day, but now I'm supposed to increase it to 125-150 g, to help the baby build up glycogen stores. Since I'm on the SCD, I have to get all of that from fruit or honey. It works out to 6 cups of applesauce, 6 bananas, 5 cups of apple juice, 3.5 cups of grape juice, or 0.5 cup of honey. (These are net carbs, so you subtract the fiber. Green vegetables won't make much of a dent in the total.) Not exactly the Atkins diet!

I'm going to try to remember to have a glass of grape juice with each meal from now on. The rutin in wine and grape juice is supposed to be good for building strong veins, and mine are getting less happy with each pregnancy.
post #38 of 75
Thread Starter 
Just wanted to check in and say that apart from that one slightly high reading (120/82) on a day when I hadn't been eating or drinking enough, my third trimester blood pressure has been steady at 120/70 at all my appointments, and also when I've checked it at home. This is a big difference for me. In past pregnancies, the systolic pressure was typically about 20 points lower, but both numbers were "labile," i.e. they bounced around a lot. I'll take slightly higher but consistent readings any day. I'm pretty sure that I have Dr. K to thank for this. I'm certainly eating less protein, and much less salt, than when I was on the Brewer diet. It's not that I'm restricting them -- just that I don't want them as much, when I eat the recommended amount of fat.

At almost 38 weeks, I'm getting pretty lazy in the kitchen... not a lot of thrilling organ meat creativity going on at the moment. On most days, for at least one meal, I just take a pound of ground beef, add about 1/8 tsp salt and some herbs, then cook it as patties or meatballs in a bunch of tallow. Then I put the meat in a serving dish, and saute some veggies in the pan drippings (just random stuff from our CSA box, along with mushrooms to soak up the fat). This concoction is delicious with mustard and sauerkraut, maybe a little cheese, and some extra butter, sour cream, or vinaigrette. "Meatballs with vinaigrette" and "breakfast sausage patties with butter" are my current favorites.

On top of being easy and tasty, this is a pretty thrifty way to cook. It's great to be able to feed the whole family on one pound of meat.
post #39 of 75


The fat/protein/carb recs in the Optimal Diet diet are reminding me of the recent stuff posted in the paleo/grain free threads about diets--esp. the stuff discussed by Nora Gedgaudas, author of Primal Body--Primal Mind. (I splurged and just got it in the mail yesterday! Dense stuff but fascinating!!) The OD seems to have a very similar ratio of recommended amounts of fat, protein and carbs as Nora's recs...I'd love to talk more about this!

Hummingmom, are you still going w/ this? And if so, how is it going for you?
post #40 of 75
Thanks for bumping this, Lauren!

This is a good thread. I definitely want to get the Optimal Diet - does he have two books? Is Optimal Nutrition another book of his?

And I want to get Neanderthin. It's out of print, I think & I haven't looked for it yet - but it's on my wish list.

I'm so happy with how I've been feeling after starting to get really serious with this Primal/Paleo diet. And I think that since I made the decision for ALL of us to do it, kids too, I feel more gung-ho about it.

hummingmom, my Dd1 (& me) sound like your Dd1. We both tend towards hypoglycemia but mine has disappeared since getting hardcore about keeping carbs *really* low. Dd1 seems to want to snack a bit sometimes & I offer nuts or an egg or some fat, like cream. This seems to help her as well. We both have some adrenal issues & we're sooooo much alike. My other two don't seem to have adrenal issues or hypoglycemia tendencies. I ate much better with my last two. Interestingly, Dd1 has a very narrow palate - she had top & bottom expanders & needs braces. Dd2 & Ds have nice, broad palates.

Yay for good threads!
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