They shouldn't have been swimming... - Page 3

[eepster]

Originally Posted by Talula Fairie

No one should leave their third grader at home alone, but people do, and my mother always did, although I'd say it was more like fourth and fifth grade that I became a total latch key kid. It's really too bad and not a great way to grow up, especially for an only child. I wouldn't let my own kids do that. But at the same time, I don't think it's CPS or sue-the-parents worthy either.

I don't think the third grader was left home alone.
It sounds like her older brother was there:

Originally Posted by nextcommercial

The only person at the hospital with that little girl was her 12 yr old brother who was freaking out.

And this:

Originally Posted by nextcommercial

These kids live with the dad. It's a large family with five kids, ages 8-17. So, THEY were supposed to be supervised, but the older kids weren't around.

makes me wonder if one of the older siblings was supposed to be there, but went off to do something else.

[Talula Fairie]

[QUOTE=eepster;13403385]I don't think the tird grader was left home alone.
It sounds like her older brother was there:

The person I was referring to, the boy who lived at the house with the pool, was indeed left home alone.

Here is what the OP said:

The pool house boy is an only child. He is old enough to have known that...

#1. There is no way that the cool decking could have dried in time before his mom came home. So, she would have figured it out on her own anyway.

#2. They were making enough noise that people three blocks away could have heard them, so obviously, SOMEONE would have ratted them out.

But, he took the chance anyway. He's grounded for the rest of spring break. He's not a happy kid. But, he's been good about it.

*I* was referring to the pool house boy saying the parents should not be sued and CPS should not be called, on his parents or the girl's parents (esp considering her 12 yo brother was supposed to be watching her, as you said).

[One_Girl]

Originally Posted by Talula Fairie

I don't think that is a situation that warrents CPS. They are a last resort for very serious abuse or neglect cases, imo.

I believe that CPS considers kids being left alone when they aren't legally old enough to be neglect. It may be different in the state you live in, but here that is considered neglect. Twelve is probably not old enough for a child to be alone. It sounds like the kids involved were all to young to be unsupervised so CPS should be called in order to avoid another serious accident. Even if a child is old enough to understand the rules they still don't follow them which is why we have laws about children needing supervision and CPS to help parents take their responsibilty to protect their children seriously by working with parents to change whatever they need to change to keep their children safe.

[Talula Fairie]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

I believe that CPS considers kids being left alone when they aren't legally old enough to be neglect. It may be different in the state you live in, but here that is considered neglect. Twelve is probably not old enough for a child to be alone. It sounds like the kids involved were all to young to be unsupervised so CPS should be called in order to avoid another serious accident. Even if a child is old enough to understand the rules they still don't follow them which is why we have laws about children needing supervision and CPS to help parents take their responsibilty to protect their children seriously by working with parents to change whatever they need to change to keep their children safe.

I don't really care what CPS thinks, I'm talking about my own personal opinion. They are a deeply flawed organization and should only be used in absolute dire emergencies, which I don't think that is.

[snoopy5386]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

I believe that CPS considers kids being left alone when they aren't legally old enough to be neglect. It may be different in the state you live in, but here that is considered neglect. Twelve is probably not old enough for a child to be alone. It sounds like the kids involved were all to young to be unsupervised so CPS should be called in order to avoid another serious accident. Even if a child is old enough to understand the rules they still don't follow them which is why we have laws about children needing supervision and CPS to help parents take their responsibilty to protect their children seriously by working with parents to change whatever they need to change to keep their children safe.

Really, 12, you think 12 is too young to be home alone? In our state it is 8. I would not leave my 8 year old home alone all day, but I would think by 12 it would be alright with checks in by phone and a neighbor nearby watching out.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

Twelve is probably not old enough for a child to be alone.

I was 12 or 13 when I started babysitting.

[nextcommercial]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

I believe that CPS considers kids being left alone when they aren't legally old enough to be neglect. It may be different in the state you live in, but here that is considered neglect. Twelve is probably not old enough for a child to be alone. It sounds like the kids involved were all to young to be unsupervised so CPS should be called in order to avoid another serious accident. Even if a child is old enough to understand the rules they still don't follow them which is why we have laws about children needing supervision and CPS to help parents take their responsibilty to protect their children seriously by working with parents to change whatever they need to change to keep their children safe.

By 12, my kid was babysitting.

At 17, I did far more stupid things than what they did. I was driving and had a job... and I was still an idiot.

The third grader is the youngest of four or five kids. I assume the Dad told the older kids to be in charge.. but apparently, they left her with the 12 yr old brother.

They are all good, normal kids.. they just broke a huge rule. They did something stupid and cocky. But, nothing that should get them in serious trouble. Besides that.. the parents handled it. The kids had a consequense, and it's been taken care of by the parents... as it should be.

[veganone]

Originally Posted by Talula Fairie

I don't think this is a case of someone being at fault legally speaking. The homeowner thought their child would not break the rules. Yeah, I agree that it's not a great idea to leave a child that age home alone, but I don't think they are then liable for something their child did which they are clearly upset about and punishing him for.

Should we, as parents, really be liable for every mistake our children make? At what age are we not liable anymore?

I haven't read past this, but legally as parents, we are legally liable for what our kids do. Financially, at least. I am not saying it's right or wrong. We have insurance and I can't see us pursuing compensation if that were our daughter. But legally, I believe that the pool owners are liable.

The law says that the age we aren't liable anymore is 18.

I wasn't suggesting they sue.

[kblackstone444]

Originally Posted by eepster

I was 12 or 13 when I started babysitting.

12 or 13 seems to be the standard for beginning to let children babysit, but even then most mature and responsible 12 or 13 year old doesn't have the judgement yet and the experience yet to be in charge of a younger child. Many 12 or 13 year olds don't yet have the judgement and the experience to take care of themselves well enough.

When I was 12, I babysat for the neighbor kids, a 5 and 3 year old boys. I was really good (had been taking care of children very well since then, as well) and I was so much more mature and responsible than my friends at that age. One day, the family took their two boys to The Great Escape, and brought me along to help. There was a ride I really wanted to go on, but the Mother had to go use the bathroom, the Father was gonna take the 3 year old on a kid ride, and it was getting late. We only had time for one more ride before we had to go. The Dad put the 5 year old against the height requirement and figured he was tall enough to go on the ride and we all went our seperate ways, with me in charge or the 5 year old. Sure enough, the Dad had been mistaken and the 5 year old was not tall enough to go on the ride and I made the not so experienced and adult decision to leave him waiting for me at the gate while I went on the ride. : I figured I could watch him while on the ride and if anyone grabbed him, I could yell for the ride operator to hear. And I was one of the smarter and more mature of the kids my age. It didn't occur to me that everyone else on the fast and scary ride would also be yelling and screaming and that, God forbid, anything had happened to that child, the ride would not stop fast enough for me to get off as fast as needed and that the ride operator wouldn't be able to leave the ride to chase after someone kidnapping a kid. Well, the ride ended, the parents came back and all was well, but to this day, I can't believe my lack of judgement, my reasoning I had as that 12 year old. Even the most responsible 12 year old is really still a child, and I don't think I'd trust my 13 year old son to watch my 8 year old little girl for more than a few minutes, not because I don't think he'd do the best job he could, or that I don't trust him in general, or that he would be reckless or anything, but because at 12 or 13, kids just don't have the ability to see the whole picture the way an adult would.

[eepster]

Originally Posted by harleyhalfmoon

12 or 13 seems to be the standard for beginning to let children babysit, but even then most mature and responsible 12 or 13 year old doesn't have the judgement yet and the experience yet to be in charge of a younger child. Many 12 or 13 year olds don't yet have the judgement and the experience to take care of themselves well enough.

When I was 12, I babysat for the neighbor kids, a 5 and 3 year old boys. I was really good (had been taking care of children very well since then, as well) and I was so much more mature and responsible than my friends at that age. One day, the family took their two boys to The Great Escape, and brought me along to help. There was a ride I really wanted to go on, but the Mother had to go use the bathroom, the Father was gonna take the 3 year old on a kid ride, and it was getting late. We only had time for one more ride before we had to go. The Dad put the 5 year old against the height requirement and figured he was tall enough to go on the ride and we all went our seperate ways, with me in charge or the 5 year old. Sure enough, the Dad had been mistaken and the 5 year old was not tall enough to go on the ride and I made the not so experienced and adult decision to leave him waiting for me at the gate while I went on the ride. : I figured I could watch him while on the ride and if anyone grabbed him, I could yell for the ride operator to hear. And I was one of the smarter and more mature of the kids my age. It didn't occur to me that everyone else on the fast and scary ride would also be yelling and screaming and that, God forbid, anything had happened to that child, the ride would not stop fast enough for me to get off as fast as needed and that the ride operator wouldn't be able to leave the ride to chase after someone kidnapping a kid. Well, the ride ended, the parents came back and all was well, but to this day, I can't believe my lack of judgement, my reasoning I had as that 12 year old. Even the most responsible 12 year old is really still a child, and I don't think I'd trust my 13 year old son to watch my 8 year old little girl for more than a few minutes, not because I don't think he'd do the best job he could, or that I don't trust him in general, or that he would be reckless or anything, but because at 12 or 13, kids just don't have the ability to see the whole picture the way an adult would.

This is all true, but I was addresing whether or not CPS should/would get involved and call it neglect b/c a 12 yo was left home alone in the case of the neighbor with the pool, or in charge as in the familly with 5 kids ranging from 8-17.

[Sijae]

Originally Posted by One_Girl

I believe that CPS considers kids being left alone when they aren't legally old enough to be neglect. It may be different in the state you live in, but here that is considered neglect. Twelve is probably not old enough for a child to be alone. It sounds like the kids involved were all to young to be unsupervised so CPS should be called in order to avoid another serious accident. Even if a child is old enough to understand the rules they still don't follow them which is why we have laws about children needing supervision and CPS to help parents take their responsibilty to protect their children seriously by working with parents to change whatever they need to change to keep their children safe.

Are you serious? My son was not only home alone but babysitting his younger siblings at 12 years old. CPS can ruin a family. They should only be called in serious situations not because you happen to disagree with their parenting style.

Originally Posted by Talula Fairie

I don't really care what CPS thinks, I'm talking about my own personal opinion. They are a deeply flawed organization and should only be used in absolute dire emergencies, which I don't think that is.

:

[flapjack]

I'm seriously saying that I think it is absolutely tragic that a group of parents can't organise ANY reliable childcare at all, coordinate days off, anything. I think it's a damning indictment of modern society that such young children are expected to be able to fend for themselves and a far more damning indictment of society that the means that society uses to protect children are something to be feared rather than praised. I'm really, truly sorry that you were put in the situation where you had to leave a 12yo child to babysit, because I don't think that's fair on you the parent, or any of your children. I think your community let you down.

[Sijae]

Originally Posted by flapjack

I'm seriously saying that I think it is absolutely tragic that a group of parents can't organise ANY reliable childcare at all, coordinate days off, anything. I think it's a damning indictment of modern society that such young children are expected to be able to fend for themselves and a far more damning indictment of society that the means that society uses to protect children are something to be feared rather than praised. I'm really, truly sorry that you were put in the situation where you had to leave a 12yo child to babysit, because I don't think that's fair on you the parent, or any of your children. I think your community let you down.

I didn't have to leave my 12 year old to babysit. That wasn't my point. I don't work out of the home and don't have "latch-key" kids. What's damning about this society is that we are holding our kids back into childhood longer and longer and it's ridiculous. My point was that my son was responsible enough to watch his siblings at 12.

My point was that it's crazy to think that a parent should be targeted by overzealous and judgmental neighbors (NOT speaking of the OP or the woman who called 911 here) if they choose to leave a young man on the cusp of adulthood at home to watch a younger sibling. If the parents consider their young teen to be responsible then it's THEIR CHOICE.

It's trully terifying how much of a nanny state this country is turning into.

[hottmama]

I was a latchkey kid at 7 (and responsible for my 5yo sister for 2 hours a day, after walking home from school with her). My kids will be allowed to stay home alone around 8. I think it's very sad that there are people who wouldn't leave a 12 yo alone... how will they survive when they have to go out in the world at 16-18?

[jeevee3]

Wow, what an unfortunate accident. Poor kid. And yes, it might have happened with adults there and no, this is not something to burden CPS with. Thank goodness that neighborhood is full of caring adults and not nosy, intrusive, vindictive ones.

The person that says it's not right to leave a 12 year old alone either doesn't have a 12 year old or has one that's still very immature. Most 12 year olds will do fine. Really, most 8 year olds will too. I don't think it's a daming indictment of modern society at all to expect young children to be responsible... in fact, these days the age we expect children to be more responsible is sadly much older than in times past.

[ChiaraRose]

I didn't have to leave my 12 year old to babysit. That wasn't my point. I don't work out of the home and don't have "latch-key" kids. What's damning about this society is that we are holding our kids back into childhood longer and longer and it's ridiculous. My point was that my son was responsible enough to watch his siblings at 12.

My point was that it's crazy to think that a parent should be targeted by overzealous and judgmental neighbors (NOT speaking of the OP or the woman who called 911 here) if they choose to leave a young man on the cusp of adulthood at home to watch a younger sibling. If the parents consider their young teen to be responsible then it's THEIR CHOICE.

It's trully terifying how much of a nanny state this country is turning into.

:

[flapjack]

My oldest is only 10, yes, and isn't a particularly mature 10 at that- still overblessed with a tendency to do stupid things and act on impulse. At the same time, I'm remembering myself as a young teenager, my friends as young teenagers, and whilst we wouldn't necessarily have burnt the house down or thrown a wild pool party while my parents were at work, it was a grim and lonely existence. I still needed the human contact, the social contact with my elders, and it wasn't forthcoming.

I do think that to leave your 12yos to their own devices throughout the day is neglectful. They AREN'T adults and shouldn't be treated as such. I live in an area with far too many teenagers who are not acting responsibly and maturely, who are not providing happy role models for my children, and it doesn't seem unreasonable to me that a little bit more guidance from their parents in the pre-teen years could have helped them navigate their teen years with a few fewer convictions for criminal damage. I'm not going to take the risk of my boys turning out like that.

I'm also not anticipating that my children will be seeking total independence at 16. The mandatory school-leaving age here (UK) is 18 (including various vocational training options) If you're comparing with the good old days, your typical child would either leave school at 14/5 here and go into a highly structured apprenticeship programme, with the guidance of adults. Communities were smaller, and children- teenagers- had far more contact with others around, and there was a lot more social support available for families as a whole. The alternative was university or a college, which again was a heavily structured, very formal existence, with a lot of adult supervision and support to help children navigate their way into adulthood. Nowadays, they get to- what, 16, 12, 8? and are considered that that's it, you're grown now, off and on your own. Historically it's only since the whole teenage phenomenon was created back in the 60s that there's been a culture of young people living independent from their parents in early adulthood. Generally, adolescence started later and ended later and the adolescent years were accompanied by much more involvement by adults outside your own family. That's not how life is working nowadays, and therefore I am intending to take up the slack myself.

[TripMom]

Umm . . I haven't read the whole thread . . .but my first shock was that all these kids were home alone? They all sound like elementary age kids? Can they really be left alone like that? Mine are younger - but I have a hard time seeing myself letting them be here all alone for a week at that age?

[mommahhh]

Originally Posted by Sijae

...if they choose to leave a young man on the cusp of adulthood at home to watch a younger sibling.

12 years old is the cusp of adulthood? Wow, I had no idea. Maybe I just know some really immature 12 year olds. Also, I clearly remember myself at 12 and I was definitely lacking in judgment (but then again, I know I was an immature 12).

[AlwaysByMySide]

CPS has a lot bigger things to worry about than some pre-teens left home during SPRING BREAK. They weren't truant, they weren't (I assume) left alone overnight. It sounds like the kid with the pool got punished. It's just not neglect to leave your pre-teen children home alone during Spring Break in the US. If it is, then CPS is going to have to go after a good percentage of American families.

I started babysitting (non-related) kids at 12. I was a latch-key kid at 9 or 10. It's the way it works when you have two parents that work outside the home. At that time, there wasn't any money in my family to pay for me to have a babysitter for the three hours I was by myself before my parents got home, and I didn't need it.

But at age 12, and beyond, I did some stupid things when my parents weren't home. Haven't we all?

Topic? The mother in the OP does sound like a total looney toon. If I found out that my kid was taken to an ER, the last thought in my head would be what the bill for the ambulance would be. Seriously.