Homopathic vaccines?

[Layna]

Has anybody done these or heard of them?
I guess they're drops and you pretty much give them the same time you would give regular vaccines. A lady I was talking to said she took her kids to her Natruopath to get them.
I'm intrested in knowing more!

[baileyann3]

Ooooo interesting... I'll be hanging around this thread

[shuttlt]

Isn't that homeopathic dilutions of diseased tissue?

[shuttlt]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosodes#Remedies

Isopathy is a therapy derived from homeopathy and was invented by Johann Joseph Wilhelm Lux in the 1830s.[98] Isopathy differs from homeopathy in general in that the remedies are made up either from things that cause the disease, or from products of the disease, such as pus. Many so-called "homeopathic vaccines" are a form of isopathy.

[mamakay]

Total scam.

[Layna]

Originally Posted by mamakay

Total scam.

Why do you say that? Because of the above?
I really want to know more but not really because I want to do them ~ Just because I hadn't heard of them and I get curious about this stuff

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Layna

Why do you say that? Because of the above?
I really want to know more but not really because I want to do them ~ Just because I hadn't heard of them and I get curious about this stuff

If you find homeopathy plausible, then homeopathic vaccines are also plausible. The mainstream objections to it can be found by a Google search for homeopathy and quack. The health and healing forum talks about homeopathy a lot from the other perspective.

[luminesce]

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...deoID=22203933

[Deborah]

Anecdote from long ago. My grandmother got an infected finger. This would have been perhaps 1917 or so? She went to her local doctor who took some of the pus, did something with it and gave her a medicine made from the pus to take by mouth. Cleared the infection right up. I've used this principal to clear up the occasional infection "down there" when other treatments didn't work. There is also an interesting thread a while back on eating boogers. Generally, if you can get the digestive system to pay attention then your immune system will activate and kick out the problem. Or something like that.

[mamakay]

Originally Posted by Deborah

Anecdote from long ago. My grandmother got an infected finger. This would have been perhaps 1917 or so? She went to her local doctor who took some of the pus, did something with it and gave her a medicine made from the pus to take by mouth. Cleared the infection right up. I've used this principal to clear up the occasional infection "down there" when other treatments didn't work. There is also an interesting thread a while back on eating boogers. Generally, if you can get the digestive system to pay attention then your immune system will activate and kick out the problem. Or something like that.

That's really gross, Deborah.


Seriously, stuff like that is at least biologically plausible. Homeopathy is "nothing"...it's just 100% pure water, unless you believe that water can be magic.
There is not even one molecule of the original substance left in a homeopathic dilution.

[an_domhan]

Originally Posted by mamakay

Seriously, stuff like that is at least biologically plausible. Homeopathy is "nothing"...it's just 100% pure water, unless you believe that water can be magic.
There is not even one molecule of the original substance left in a homeopathic dilution.

To anyone with an understanding of quantum theory, homeopathy is not such a stretch. I do believe in some cases some of the crude substance does remain. Obviously, the "scientific consensus" is that it's quackery... Unless you're a quantum physicist studying quantum homeodynamics and charged particles, etc... No one's laughing at them, as far as I can tell.

There are studies in the literature that support homeopathy. Statistical significance seems to the be an issue, but the very nature of homeopathy kind of precludes that kind of "relevance".

[Deborah]

the split is between materialists and those people comfortable with a non-physical basis for reality. I fall on the non-physical side. I see matter as a derivative of consciousness rather than the other way around.

On treating problems with my own bodily secretions: I used to feel that stuff was really gross, but having cleared up several infections in my life at zero cost and no side-effects...I now just think of it as a very convenient healing solution when appropriate.

Homeopathy actually makes a lot more sense to me than the usual line of drugs. I'm sort of horrified by the millions of people who take a daily dose of pharma crap. Insane.

[an_domhan]

Originally Posted by serenitii

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fu...deoID=22203933

That was entertaining... I find it fairly ironic that people seem to think that homeopathy has not progressed beyond its original founding principles. That's like scientists reeling on those that use 10 year old studies to make their points while professing superiority to the ever changing glamour of science. Making fun of a chemist that didn't want to poison people when he treated them (while his opponents did just that) then ignoring the fact that his conventional counterparts were rooting around inside of people with unsterilised instruments is kind of laughable. Context.

When Samuel Hahnemann died in 1843, his allopathic counterparts were still more than a quarter century away from realising that fewer patients died when the surgeon washed his hands before surgeries.

[Deborah]

Interesting point. Homeopathy, even if it didn't work, may have saved many lives simply by not poisoning people or cutting them open. Gave people at least a small chance of healing. And I'm still inclined to think it does work, but not in the way that materialists think medicines have to act to work.

[luminesce]

Originally Posted by Deborah

And I'm still inclined to think it does work, but not in the way that materialists think medicines have to act to work.

The problem with thinking of it in any alternative way (aside from it not being scientific at all, of course) is if diluting something to nothing has any kind of ability to have any effect on our body -- well, can you imagine what type of pharmaceuticals, toxins, etc. etc. are diluted in the water we drink every day? We are bombarded by diluted substances.

[mamakay]

The sucker punch to the idea is that it doesn't work better than placebo. Ever.

It not only doesn't work (in controlled trials), but it shouldn't work.
And not only shouldn't work, but doesn't work (in controlled trials).

I mean, imagine if the CDC was saying "Even though flu shots don't appear to work in most of the recommended age brackets, there's definitely a mysterious principal at play that escapes scientific detection".
We would (and do, basically) balk.
Why should homeopathy get a free pass? If we give homeopathy a free pass on the effectiveness end, why shouldn't we give flu shots for babies a free pass in that sense, as well?

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by an_domhan

To anyone with an understanding of quantum theory, homeopathy is not such a stretch. I do believe in some cases some of the crude substance does remain. Obviously, the "scientific consensus" is that it's quackery... Unless you're a quantum physicist studying quantum homeodynamics and charged particles, etc... No one's laughing at them, as far as I can tell.

There is almost no theory that you can't find somebody with a Phd to support. I would be exceedingly surprised if any but a tiny minority of quantum physicists thought that it explained homeopathy. This isn't to say that homeopathy is necessarily false because of this. I'm sure the majority of physicists believe a whole bunch of stuff that will turn out to be false.

There are studies in the literature that support homeopathy. Statistical significance seems to the be an issue, but the very nature of homeopathy kind of precludes that kind of "relevance".

OK. How about a study where you randomly either give people their prescribed homeopathic medicine (doesn't matter what), or water and see if there is any difference in the two groups satisfaction with the success of their treatment?

But all this isn't really vax related, and if we carry on will almost certainly result in this thread being closed.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Deborah

the split is between materialists and those people comfortable with a non-physical basis for reality. I fall on the non-physical side. I see matter as a derivative of consciousness rather than the other way around.

Personally, I find this a perfectly plausible and consistent thing to believe in. I don't believe in it, but I very much doubt I could offer much evidence that you I'm right and you're wrong. The nature of consciousness is an interesting topic.

On treating problems with my own bodily secretions: I used to feel that stuff was really gross, but having cleared up several infections in my life at zero cost and no side-effects...I now just think of it as a very convenient healing solution when appropriate.

I had been wondering what my son was doing. Now I see that he is self medicating, and often trying to give me medicine as well... bless his heart!

[mkmoro311]

Dr Issac Golden is appearently the man to read up on when finding more info on this.

http://www.homstudy.net/research/index.htm

I asked around to some Natropaths in regards to this and most had never done it and those who did had not worked with Nosodes because they were hard to come by! I am still investigating becuase we use Homeopathics as a family so it makes perfect sense to use them for our vaxing option as well!

[Deborah]

Shuttit

I had been wondering what my son was doing. Now I see that he is self medicating, and often trying to give me medicine as well... bless his heart!

Yep! your kid is self-medicating.

On the clinical studies, since homeopathy works on an entirely different basis than allopathy, clinical studies designed for allopathy are definitely not going to give valid results.

To take one aspect: homeopathic remedies are prescribed to the individual, taking into account their entire physical condition. So 10 people with diabetes would probably get 10 different remedies. I think it would be possible to come up with some good clinical studies, but they would have to start from a different place.

I'm not actually into homeopathy, my preferred modality is anthroposophically extended medicine, although I'm happy to go with naturapaths and chiropractors if that is what I can find. In the anthroposophical medicine the doctors use whatever they think will work: herbs, homeopathy, anthroposophical remedies, movement therapy (eurythmy), color therapy, music therapy, meditation exercises, nutrition--very electic. Some of the anthroposophical remedies are prepared by homeopathic potentizing methods, but they are not based on the homeopathic principal of like cures like.

They are definitely holistic and they also look at the individual biography for clues to the origins of particular illnesses.