Homopathic vaccines? - Page 5

[Barbee]

I didn't read all the posts, but I just wanted to pipe in real quick. My ds has had the homeopathic vaccines and is up to date on them. He's now got whooping cough. I think homeopathy is brilliant for an ailment you already have, but in my opinion, I don't think the nosodes are particularly effective.

[Marnica]

You know I started to type a whole long response and I have changed my mind...as I have said I am not interested in "proving" my point of view correct. My experiences are all that matter to me. What matters to you (or so it would seem) is finding the type of study that I do not think can be done on homeopathy. A randomized double blind study. most scientists and yourself so it would seem believe that only that which can be seen or tested can be believed. Homeopathy can't be tested in the same way as phramaceuticals. These methods do not take into account variables bewteen humans. When homeopathy is subjected to these kinds of tests, it will fail to prove the exsistence of an effect so is therefore nothing more than a placebo.
So feel free to do whatever type of follow up or reading you see fit. I don't think I can produce a link to a study that will satisfy you. Most studies that show effectiveness are case studies...look at the links.

For the record I do not take your posts as aggressive at all. You and I just come from 2 totally opposite places when it comes to evidence and medicine so I would assume that most things I post you will find issue with which is fine but again debate is not my thing. To each his own shuttit. All I care about is what works for me and my family and all I can do is share my opinions and whatever info I feel is relavant to me. If it is not to others so be it.
I suppose this is why the fact that there are so many options out there is a good thing! What works for some won't for others so there will always be something else to try. What I have a problem with is when those options are forced on us because it is assumed that it is the "only" truth. But that is a whole other topic

[shuttlt]

@Marnica
I'm sorry, I find this hard to resist. I'll be good and not try to argue the point. You don't won't to debate and I should respect that. There's fire on both sides, because lives are at stake and people are clearly being dishonest and/or taken in, on one side, or the other. Anyway, the main reason that I struggle to let this go is that intelligent people clearly do believe in homeopathy and it is a failure of imagination on my part that I can't understand the thought processes that arrive at this conclusion. It's easy to dismiss people as foolish, ignorant, credulous etc... but that is really just putting a label in place of an explanation. My failure really bugs me.

If you know of a good defence of homeopathy against orthodox skepticism, I'd appreciate a PM.

All the best!

[Deborah]

I'll admit I'm extremely doubtful about the effectiveness of nosodes (homeopathic vaccines) and that is one type of homeopathy I wouldn't personally use.

I'm comfortable with keeping homeopathy as an option for my own health, along with chiropractic, herbal remedies, vitamins and, when I can get it, anthroposophically extended medicine.

The concept of evidence based medicine is great. The practice is getting more and more perverse as drug companies learn how to game the system effectively. My favorite vaccine related example, these days, is the aluminum filled placebo compared to the aluminum filled vaccine, Gardasil. Gosh, the placebo showed the same rate of adverse effects as the vaccine! So the vaccine must be safe. With science like that...

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Deborah

The concept of evidence based medicine is great. The practice is getting more and more perverse as drug companies learn how to game the system effectively. My favorite vaccine related example, these days, is the aluminum filled placebo compared to the aluminum filled vaccine, Gardasil. Gosh, the placebo showed the same rate of adverse effects as the vaccine! So the vaccine must be safe. With science like that...

I've been wondering about this one a lot over the past couple of weeks. Prompted by your post I did a bit of Googling... there were loads of comments about the aluminium placebo making essentially the same point you've made, and then I found this:

The most common vaccination site toxicities observed for Gardasil compared to aluminum-containing placebo and saline placebo were pain (83.9% vs. 75.4% and 48.6%), swelling (25.4% vs. 15.8% and 7.3%), and erythema (24.6% vs. 18.4% and 12.1%). The most common systemic adverse events for Gardasil compared to saline placebo were fever (13.0% vs. 11.2%) and nausea (6.7% vs. 6.6%).

http://www.fda.gov/cder/offices/oodp...w/gardasil.htm

I'm now trying to unpick an argument about the presentation of the data for the saline placebo at http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/janak/080723, but there definately was a saline placebo.

[an_domhan]

Originally Posted by mamakay

Well, originally..

Shut said:


And you said:

What physicists support homeopathy?

Apologies again, I was sidetracked when you asked for a link. Weingartner is indeed a physicist (included in that link I provided), and as I understand, most of these papers aren't in English and most of them don't speak English... I'm certain he's been attacked, as was Milgrom, but that doesn't mean they are wrong. To discount the application without adequate rigor is rather unscientific if you ask me.

That said, you might find the following interesting:

http://www.rustumroy.com/Roy_Structure%20of%20Water.pdf

http://www.vhan.nl/documents/Scienti...rtECHNov04.pdf

http://www.newscientist.com/article/...thic-hint.html

I'm quite sure that there are certain areas of the internet that have gone to great lengths to discredit any and all positive aspects of homeopathic research. In fact, I'm confident in asserting that some people make a living out of it.

In any event, I'm not really interested in arguing the merits of homeopathy, only approaching the modality with mind open.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

I'm now trying to unpick an argument about the presentation of the data for the saline placebo at http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/janak/080723, but there definately was a saline placebo.

It doesn't seem very convincing to me, unless a "carrier solution" has something in it that would obviously invalidate it as a placebo. Anybody know what the ingredients of a "carrier solution" are?

[Deborah]

Oh, yes, there was a saline placebo...given to 300 out of thousands. And in the results they combined the two placebos some of the time and separated them some of the time. I believe they combined them for major reactions and separated the groups when discussing minor reactions. I'd have to look it up to be sure. But the vast majority of the placebo category got the aluminum and most of the data is from the aluminum placebo. Like I said, the drug companies are really getting good at manipulating the system.

[emma1325]

Can these homeopathic vaccines produce detectable antibodies that will show in a titer test?

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by emma1325

Can these homeopathic vaccines produce detectable antibodies that will show in a titer test?

No.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Deborah

Oh, yes, there was a saline placebo...given to 300 out of thousands. And in the results they combined the two placebos some of the time and separated them some of the time. I believe they combined them for major reactions and separated the groups when discussing minor reactions. I'd have to look it up to be sure. But the vast majority of the placebo category got the aluminum and most of the data is from the aluminum placebo. Like I said, the drug companies are really getting good at manipulating the system.

OK. Thanks Deborah. I'm going to work my way through the studies and try to understand this.

[emma1325]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

No.

never?

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by emma1325

never?

Never ever! Otherwise that would be direct, objective evidence for homeopathy. Essentially the claim is that these vaccines work in a way that can't be tested, measured, or detected. The Benveniste stuff mentioned earlier is a slight variation in this... he claimed that you could objectively measure this kind of stuff. His findings couldn't be replicated and, when his lab got investigated, he wasn't able to replicate them either. What conclusions you draw from all this depends on which side of the argument you are on.

[emma1325]

Originally Posted by shuttlt

Never ever! Otherwise that would be direct, objective evidence for homeopathy. Essentially the claim is that these vaccines work in a way that can't be tested, measured, or detected. The Benveniste stuff mentioned earlier is a slight variation in this... he claimed that you could objectively measure this kind of stuff. His findings couldn't be replicated and, when his lab got investigated, he wasn't able to replicate them either. What conclusions you draw from all this depends on which side of the argument you are on.

hmmm. Ok thanks.

[Deborah]

I have a friend who is a professional scientist. He was utterly disgusted with the way the Beneviste studies were debunked and felt that it was a set up, not an honest review of his work.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Deborah

I have a friend who is a professional scientist. He was utterly disgusted with the way the Beneviste studies were debunked and felt that it was a set up, not an honest review of his work.

That may well be the case. Science can be a brutish business at times. It does have to be a bit brutish though, otherwise nobodies ideas would ever get rejected.

[Deborah]

Yes, the brutishness serves a purpose. But it can also provide a lovely cover-up to folks who are defending the status quo, rather than driving out bad science. I think this applies strongly to the vaccine defenders.

[shuttlt]

Originally Posted by Deborah

Yes, the brutishness serves a purpose. But it can also provide a lovely cover-up to folks who are defending the status quo, rather than driving out bad science. I think this applies strongly to the vaccine defenders.

Personally, I think it's very hard to know. The traditional example of the scientist being stamped on by the status quo is of course Galileo, but the claim of established Science is that for every Galileo there are countless madmen and rogues who are justifiably thrown out. And the claim of every stamped on fraud is that they are Galileo.

I'm not sure that I could tell for example whether Wakefield is a Galileo or a fraud with any certainty. One of the complaints about Wakefield is that he has behaved in an attention seeking, provocative, self serving way.... these are all charges that could be layed at the feet of Galileo. Rightness doesn't necessarily go hand in hand with niceness, and nice is different from good.

Time will, I suppose, tell. In the meantime, wheoever is right, people die through this uncertainty.

[Barbee]

Originally, I posted that my ds had the nosode, but got pertussis which made me think that the nosode didn't work. I'm changing my opinion. All of the kids who did not receive the nosode or conventional vaccines ended up much sicker than my own ds. His is a nagging cough, but nothing like the other kids. Although, I don't think that the nosode worked to prevent his illness, I do think that it lessened the severity. Anyway, that's my anecdotal evidence.

[wytchywoman]

Originally Posted by Barbee

Originally, I posted that my ds had the nosode, but got pertussis which made me think that the nosode didn't work. I'm changing my opinion. All of the kids who did not receive the nosode or conventional vaccines ended up much sicker than my own ds. His is a nagging cough, but nothing like the other kids. Although, I don't think that the nosode worked to prevent his illness, I do think that it lessened the severity. Anyway, that's my anecdotal evidence.

I'm glad that it at least lessened the illness for him and I hope he gets better soon. I think Pertussis is a really tough one to prevent. Obviously the conventional vaccines aren't worth a crap as this has made a very strong return in recent years. I know some of the mamas have had good results with sodium ascorbate once the infection started though.