Mothering › Forums › Health › Vaccinations › A case against Hib Serotype Replacement?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

A case against Hib Serotype Replacement? - Page 2

post #21 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
The Prevnar trials have been really well designed to detect replacement of all types. Some of then even took note of carriage and disease caused by other species of bacteria, like h-flu and staph.
The Hib trials weren't designed like that. Then again, they had no idea the vax would prevent carriage. No carriage prevention, no possibility of replacement.
So it's sort of a mess.
Are you serious? I did not know that. This blows me away. Amazing how the experts don't know this small bit of SIGNIFICANT information and they just expect us to go along with their vax plan.
post #22 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectrolite View Post
Are you serious? I did not know that. This blows me away. Amazing how the experts don't know this small bit of SIGNIFICANT information and they just expect us to go along with their vax plan.
Yep. Ema-adama quoted it earlier in the thread but it's here...bottom paragraph on this page:


http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/413130_6

Quote:
Now I think we're all very familiar with the idea that Hib conjugate vaccines protect against acquisition of carriage, but it's important to remind ourselves that this was not an expected finding of these vaccines, and it actually was something that was somewhat stumbled upon and led to evaluation of invasive disease among children who were not vaccinated with conjugate vaccines. Because this was not an expected phenomenon, studies were not designed specifically during the prelicensure era of Hib conjugate vaccines to really evaluate this question.
Which is probably because they were just scrambling to replace the polysaccharide vaccine ASAP.

Look at the timeline:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...5&postcount=86
post #23 of 29
I havent been able to fully understand the whole story here... so sorry if these questions are very basic here..

based on the timeline, the new "not so scary polysaccharide" vax was outed and the new conjugate vax came in about one month later?? A month?! Uh, what about testing, trials, etc? Am I missing something here?
post #24 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenmansions View Post
I realize this is a bit OT but does any of the research indicate how long these vaxes ares supposed to last? Are they effective for a lifetime or do they wear off? Has that been determined?
I'm still wondering this too. Was it so that we just don't know yet? mamakay?
post #25 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by mamakay View Post
Yep. Ema-adama quoted it earlier in the thread but it's here...bottom paragraph on this page:

http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/413130_6

Which is probably because they were just scrambling to replace the polysaccharide vaccine ASAP.

Look at the timeline:
http://www.mothering.com/discussions...5&postcount=86
And they still aren't properly looking at the effects of the vaccine preventing carriage. The change in human reservoirs has been said to be one of the most important reasons why Hib cases are increasing in European countries.
post #26 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectrolite View Post
I havent been able to fully understand the whole story here... so sorry if these questions are very basic here..

based on the timeline, the new "not so scary polysaccharide" vax was outed and the new conjugate vax came in about one month later?? A month?! Uh, what about testing, trials, etc? Am I missing something here?
I originally thought the conjugate vaccine came out in the 90s - and it did, for infants but there were conjugate vaccines licensed earlier than that (12/87 for the first) and given to kids of all ages - VAERS data and CDC docs confirm this. I was originally looking for info on risk of Hib in the week or two following a conjugate vaccine (because I'm still not clear on this) and stumbled on this extremely sad story. The dates made me start researching licensure dates of Hib conjugate vaccines.

http://www.meningitisfoundationofame.../50/index.html

and also with the timeline info here:

http://www.nvic.org/Myths-and-Facts.aspx
post #27 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectrolite View Post
I havent been able to fully understand the whole story here... so sorry if these questions are very basic here..

based on the timeline, the new "not so scary polysaccharide" vax was outed and the new conjugate vax came in about one month later?? A month?! Uh, what about testing, trials, etc? Am I missing something here?
Close.
The scary polysaccharide vax (there was only one, and it sucked) was outed and the conjugate vax both approved by the FDA and then recommended by the CDC one month later.
post #28 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spectrolite View Post
I'm still wondering this too. Was it so that we just don't know yet? mamakay?
It's unknown.
post #29 of 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenitii View Post
And they still aren't properly looking at the effects of the vaccine preventing carriage. The change in human reservoirs has been said to be one of the most important reasons why Hib cases are increasing in European countries.
What's really irritating to me is that they're not setting up the present clinical trials in the countries where the vaccine is soon to be introduced, to observe the replacement disease.

Different public health agencies are taking different attitudes towards the global increase in NTHi where the Hib vaccine is used.

The CDC:
(March, 2007)
http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi...10.1086/511886


Quote:
Of interest, Dworkin et al. [2] describe a significant increase in the reporting of invasive H. influenzae disease in people aged 65 years from 1.1 to 3.9 cases per 100,000 persons, which corresponds to an increase from 16 to 58 cases statewide per year
Quote:
Concern about the potential for vaccination to lead to an increase in invasive disease caused by nonvaccine types, or “replacement disease,” is not new.
Quote:
For the pneumococcal conjugate vaccine, emergence of nonvaccine types has started to occur—both among the target age group of young children [19, 20] and among HIV-infected adults [20]—but for both pneumococcal and H. influenzae type b conjugate vaccines, the substantial net benefit in disease reduction is still evident relative to the small increase of replacement types.
So, they're calling NTHi a "replacement type".

Now, OTOH, the UK's HPA is saying "absolutely not!" to the idea of h-flu replacement.

In September of 2007, Raymond Tsang, (with the Vaccine Preventable Bacterial Diseases, National Microbiology Laboratory, Public Health Agency of Canada) wrote a little editorial in the Lancet that mentioned:


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17714669

(sorry..you have to get the fulltext to read it)

Quote:
There is ample evidence of invasive
pneumococcal disease and invasive H influenzae
disease caused by capsule replacement strains after
introduction of the respective polysaccharide conjugate
vaccines
.


Now, for those of you who are familiar with the research on h-flu replacement, Tsang is the guy who published this:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/abs/10.1086/518283

Quote:
In addition to the proportional increase in cases of nontype b Haemophilus influenzae disease in the post H. influenzae type b vaccine era, the incidence of invasive H. influenzae disease was found to be approaching the rates of H. influenzae type b disease that were documented in the prevaccine period. Fifty-six percent of invasive disease now occurs in individuals aged >10 years.
Anyway, back to the Lancet editorial, the HPA in the UK quickly responded to Tsang, saying:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18471770

(sorry again, you have to have the fulltext to read it)

Quote:
We read the comments of Raymond Tsang1 regarding
capsule replacement in vaccine-preventable diseases
and challenge the statement that “there is ample
evidence of…invasive Haemophilus infl uenzae disease
caused by capsule replacement strains after introduction
of…polysaccharide conjugate vaccines”.
Then they talk about all the raw European data they have, and they run this analysis of a few countries and conclude:

Quote:
However, unlike the pneumococcal conjugate
vaccination programme, there is no consistent or robust
evidence to suggest that mass Hib vaccination in infancy
has led to serotype replacement in either carriage or
disease.
As an aside, here's the raw data they ran their analysis from:

http://www.euibis.org/documents/2006_hib.pdf

...and they only used a few (cherry picked, I'd say) countries in their analysis, one of which is Iceland, which doesn't even report anything besides B (mostly, according to table 2, page 14). I would love to have a discussion of that raw data, btw.

So then Tsang responds back to the HPA naysayers:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19022187
(sorry again, no free fulltext)

Quote:
The aim of my letter, “capsule switching and capsule
replacement in vaccine-preventable bacterial diseases”, was not to discredit the importance of vaccination against invasive bacterial disease, but to
highlight the importance of bacterial adaptability and the need for continued surveillance to stay ahead of the issues related to control of vaccine-preventable bacterial diseases.
Quote:
Although invasive diseases caused by nonencapsulated H influenzae have not reached the level of disease burden posed by Hib in the pre-Hib vaccine era, their numbers are still disturbing and seem to
have increased in the past years, especially in adults, neonates, and elderly people..
Quote:
Newer vaccines for control of all H influenzae strains, including the non-encapsulated strains, are currently in clinical trials. To define the patient population that would benefit most from such vaccine developments, we need to continue to strive for better surveillance data...
There's overwhelming evidence that NTHi replaces Hib, and there's actually no evidence that it doesn't.
But to settle the question once and for all, we'd need to evaluate all bacterial carriage and disease in a Hib clinical trial, in a Hib endemic area. We'd be arguing over the "realness" of Prevnar replacement if that had not been done in some PCV clinical trials.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Vaccinations
Mothering › Forums › Health › Vaccinations › A case against Hib Serotype Replacement?