DNA vaccines - Page 3

[Th1Th2]

I don't quite understand people talk so much of vaccines and yet they don't even know what's inside these vaccines. Hepatitis B vaccine has been around since 1981 according to Wiki and yet the website below is still disseminating information that no DNA vaccine is currently in use. What's going on here? Is this part of the so-called informed consent based on misinformation? And what's even more surprising is the first vaccine for a genetically-intact newborn happens to be a DNA vaccine.

DNA vaccines. DNA vaccines are exactly what they sound like: Vaccines made of the organism's genetic material, which carry the code, or recipe, for antigens. Once in the body, normal cells take up the DNA and begin making the microbe's antigens, displaying them on their surface and stimulating the immune system to respond. It's like turning normal cells into vaccine-making machines. Because the vaccine does not contain the pathogen itself, it can't make you sick. No DNA vaccines are currently in use, but some are being tested for influenza and herpes.

[gr8blessings]

This misinformation is yours Th1Th2. The HepB vaccine is a recombinant, subunit vaccine not a DNA vaccine. The gene for the surface antigen has been cloned into yeast (same yeast used to make bread, beer, wine BTW). The yeast make the surface antigen in large amounts and the surface antigen is purified from there. The vaccine does not contain any detectable amounts of DNA (neither yeast nor HepB DNA).

These are the product monographs for the two vaccines licensed in Canada & US (there are also combination vaccines that include HepB but the HepB component is made the same way as the single component vaccine.)
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_...ombivax_pi.pdf
http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_engerixb.pdf

I would agree that "people talk so much of vaccines and yet they don't even know what's inside these vaccines", but I would add that knowing is one thing, understanding is another. It is easy to find out what is in any vaccine. The product mongraph lists the ingredients. The misinformation comes about because many people don't understand what these ingredients are in terms of their purpose in the vaccine, their chemistry and their toxicity.

gr8blessings

[Deborah]

Do we want recombinant vaccines? Are they safe? Do the vaccine makers really know how these vaccines work and what might go wrong?

But I'm delighted to know that they aren't DNA vaccines. Whew!

[Th1Th2]

Originally Posted by gr8blessings

This misinformation is yours Th1Th2. The HepB vaccine is a recombinant, subunit vaccine not a DNA vaccine. The gene for the surface antigen has been cloned into yeast (same yeast used to make bread, beer, wine BTW). The yeast make the surface antigen in large amounts and the surface antigen is purified from there. The vaccine does not contain any detectable amounts of DNA (neither yeast nor HepB DNA).

These are the product monographs for the two vaccines licensed in Canada & US (there are also combination vaccines that include HepB but the HepB component is made the same way as the single component vaccine.)
http://www.merck.com/product/usa/pi_...ombivax_pi.pdf
http://us.gsk.com/products/assets/us_engerixb.pdf

I would agree that "people talk so much of vaccines and yet they don't even know what's inside these vaccines", but I would add that knowing is one thing, understanding is another. It is easy to find out what is in any vaccine. The product mongraph lists the ingredients. The misinformation comes about because many people don't understand what these ingredients are in terms of their purpose in the vaccine, their chemistry and their toxicity.

gr8blessings

You may want to wade through the vaccine package insert again to reconsider your claim. If I remember correctly, you did once claim that the body produces its own formaldehyde. I guess you have a better explanation this time.

Anyway, the GENE you are talking about is the Hepatitis B viral DNA that was taken out from HBV (subunit) then is genetically encoded to a plasmid vector (carrier) which is the yeast protein Saccharomyces cerevisiae that is why it is termed RECOMBINANT DNA. And the vaccine is then produced from this culture. Both contain their own DNA.

Please check the references in the package insert:

Overview of Clinical Studies with Hepatitis B Vaccine Made by
Recombinant DNA, J. Infection, 13(Sup. A): 39-45, July 1986.

So, is recombinant DNA Hepatitis B vaccine, a DNA vaccine?

[gr8blessings]

Safe is a relative term. Recombinant vaccines and conjugate vaccines are considered safer than a killed vaccine and a killed vaccine is considered safer than a live, attenuated vaccine. One could also say that no vaccine is safe enough to inject into their body no matter how it is made and tested.

There are advantages and disadvantages to each type of vaccine. For example, an attenuated vaccine isn't as safe but it produces a better immunity, which is the whole point of vaccination. So with an attenuated vaccine, we trade off a little less safe for a whole lot better protection. For HepB, a recombinant vaccine would be a better choice than the alternatives, if you decide to vaccinate. A killed virus vaccine would require the virus to be grown in tissue culture, which has a certain level of risk. Given the ability of HepB to produce an asymptomatic carrier state, a live vaccine would be a huge risk. Yup, recombinant is definitely the best choice for HepB.

The manufacturer's know how they work as much as they know how any vaccine works. The vaccine only contains purified protein with an aluminum adjuvant. Nobody really knows how an adjuvant works, just that it does.

DNA vaccines are completely different in that manufacturers would be asking the human host to produce the antigens and respond to them immunologically. It is very difficult to get foreign DNA to incorporate into cells. Assuming that the manufacturers could manipulate cells to take up and express foreign DNA at a rate high enough to make a DNA vaccine feasible, I think that the consequence of incorporating foreign DNA into our genome is a very real and legitimate concern. I'm willing to bet that a DNA vaccine will not be approved until that concern is addressed.

I think it is important to get the terminology and the science right, otherwise doctors think we are uneducated nutters that don't know what we are talking about and our decisions about vaccination shouldn't be taken seriously. Your mileage may vary, of course.

gr8blessings

[Deborah]

thanks, gr8blessings. I appreciate your effort to get the facts right.

I've got a lot of doubts about the safety of the Hep B vax just because I've heard so many stories of injuries following this vaccine. Plus, if recombinant stuff is dangerous in food, why would it be safe as a vaccine? GMOs, etc.

[MissRubyandKen]

Originally Posted by KimberlyD0

Sorry that happend. Its never been an issue here. Its sad that it does, but that doesn't mean thats always the case. In a situation like that the family has the right to say no.

Yes, I'm sure where one lives and who is 'in charge' of public health in the area is a big determinant of what goes down. Both families reside at my previous residence, a smallish townhome community with a known bat problem. They'll likely see 1/3 of the people there vaccinated if the people from the health department don't let up, even though they haven't found a rabid bat. They had both families very scared.

[Th1Th2]

Originally Posted by gr8blessings

DNA vaccines are completely different in that manufacturers would be asking the human host to produce the antigens and respond to them immunologically. It is very difficult to get foreign DNA to incorporate into cells. Assuming that the manufacturers could manipulate cells to take up and express foreign DNA at a rate high enough to make a DNA vaccine feasible, I think that the consequence of incorporating foreign DNA into our genome is a very real and legitimate concern. I'm willing to bet that a DNA vaccine will not be approved until that concern is addressed.

I think it is important to get the terminology and the science right, otherwise doctors think we are uneducated nutters that don't know what we are talking about and our decisions about vaccination shouldn't be taken seriously. Your mileage may vary, of course.

gr8blessings

Do you have any idea how they make a DNA vaccine?

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by MissRubyandKen

Yes, I'm sure where one lives and who is 'in charge' of public health in the area is a big determinant of what goes down. Both families reside at my previous residence, a smallish townhome community with a known bat problem. They'll likely see 1/3 of the people there vaccinated if the people from the health department don't let up, even though they haven't found a rabid bat. They had both families very scared.

This happened to someone I know too! It was a big family-11 kids. They all got the vaccine.

The series of shots is just scary.

[Th1Th2]

I hope this will help for those who are still in denial that Hepatitis B vaccine (recombinant) is in fact, a DNA vaccine.

Hepatitis B Vaccines: What You Need to Know

There are currently five vaccines available to prevent hepatitis B: Hepcare (formerly Hepagene); and Bio-HepB, as well as Energix B, Recombivax HB, and GenHevacB which are recombinant HBV vaccines or, simply put, they operate through using re-sequenced DNA strands taken from the hepatitis B virus. There are also three combination vaccines available: TwinRix for HBV and HAV in adults, Comvax for HBV and the Haemophilus influenza virus (HiB) in children, and Hexavac for HBV, Diphtheria-Tetanus-Pertussis (DTP), HiB, and Polio in children. Dynavax Technology is developing a vaccine which is currently in phase II of development, and PowderJect is working on an HBV DNA vaccine which is currently in phase I.

Next time, you can ask your doctor if the Hepatitis B vaccine (recombinant) is really a DNA vaccine? Again, it is termed recombinant because the Hepatitis B viral DNA is combined with another DNA molecule called plasmid which is the yeast protein and then both are grown in a culture whereby the yeast protein produces the encoded HbsAg.

From the CDC it states:

Recombinant vaccine is produced by inserting a plasmid containing the gene for HBsAg into common baker’s yeast (Saccharomyces cerevisiae). Yeast cells then produce HBsAg, which is harvested and purified.

When they talk about GENE in vaccines, they really meant DNA in the vaccine. They don't wanna scare people, KWIM?

Inside the body, the same process takes place. The DNA vaccine which contains the genetic code sequence for HbsAg is taken up by the cell. But instead of the normal cellular response, the DNA which contains the genetic sequence code instructs the cell to synthesize immunologic antigen. Yes, the cells are taken over by a foreign DNA. Amazing isn't it?

[gr8blessings]

Originally Posted by Th1Th2

You may want to wade through the vaccine package insert again to reconsider your claim. If I remember correctly, you did once claim that the body produces its own formaldehyde. I guess you have a better explanation this time.

Yes, the body produces it's own formaldehyde at much greater concentrations than what is found in any vaccine. This is not something I claim. This is basic human physiology.

I could read the vaccine package insert a thousand times, and you would still be mistaken. Let me clarify your misconceptions.

Anyway, the GENE you are talking about is the Hepatitis B viral DNA that was taken out from HBV (subunit) then is genetically encoded to a plasmid vector (carrier) which is the yeast protein Saccharomyces cerevisiae that is why it is termed RECOMBINANT DNA. And the vaccine is then produced from this culture. Both contains their own DNA.

The GENE is for the HBV surface antigen. This is a protein on the surface of the HepB viral envelope that plays a key role in allowing the virus to gain entry into cells. Antibodies to this surface antigen block the virus from entering the cell. Since viruses are obligate intracellular pathogens, if the virus cannot gain entry into the cell, the virus cannot reproduce and cause the disease.

This gene has been taken out of the HBV genome and encoded on a plasmid vector. The plasmid vector is DNA, not protein. It is called recombinant DNA because of the techniques used to make the plasmid vector. The plasmid vector is inserted into the yeast. Saccharomyces cerevisiase is the name of the yeast, and not a yeast protein. Components within the yeast cell (i.e enzymes make the DNA gene into RNA, ribosomes make the RNA into protein) use the surface antigen gene to make large amounts of the surface antigen protein. The surface antigen protein is then purified from the yeast culture, which means the HBV surface antigen is separated from the yeast cell components, including all genomic DNA and plasmid DNA. The preparation does contain yeast proteins.

This is one reference that describes the above process that is available online (I don't know if this is the actual vector that is used in the vaccine, but it really doesn't matter as the technique would be the same. Other references are available if you have access to a medical library.)

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...7&blobtype=pdf

So, is recombinant DNA Hepatitis B vaccine, a DNA vaccine?

No. Although both types of vaccines use recombinant DNA technology to produce the vaccine, there are differences on how the antigen is produced. A recombinant vaccine consists of purified protein antigen that has been made by another cell (yeast or bacteria) BEFORE it is injected into the body whereas a DNA vaccine consists of a recombinant vector that allows the body to produce the protein antigen AFTER it is injected into the body.

HTH,
gr8blessings

[gr8blessings]

Originally Posted by Deborah

thanks, gr8blessings. I appreciate your effort to get the facts right.

I've got a lot of doubts about the safety of the Hep B vax just because I've heard so many stories of injuries following this vaccine. Plus, if recombinant stuff is dangerous in food, why would it be safe as a vaccine? GMOs, etc.

The difference is that a recombinant vaccine does not contain the recombinant DNA. The technique is just used to make the protein that is then used in the vaccine. With GMOs, these organisms still contain the recombinant DNA and there is the concern that this DNA may not stay were it was put, especially in regards to the antibiotic resistance genes that are used to select for the recombinants.

gr8blessings

[gr8blessings]

Originally Posted by Th1Th2

Do you have any idea how they make a DNA vaccine?

Yes, would you like me to explain it to you?

gr8blessings

[Th1Th2]

Originally Posted by gr8blessings

Yes, the body produces it's own formaldehyde at much greater concentrations than what is found in any vaccine. This is not something I claim. This is basic human physiology.

OK. Can you tell me which organ in the body produces formaldehyde?

[Th1Th2]

Originally Posted by gr8blessings

The GENE is for the HBV surface antigen. This is a protein on the surface of the HepB viral envelope that plays a key role in allowing the virus to gain entry into cells. Antibodies to this surface antigen block the virus from entering the cell. Since viruses are obligate intracellular pathogens, if the virus cannot gain entry into the cell, the virus cannot reproduce and cause the disease.

This gene has been taken out of the HBV genome and encoded on a plasmid vector. The plasmid vector is DNA, not protein. It is called recombinant DNA because of the techniques used to make the plasmid vector. The plasmid vector is inserted into the yeast. Saccharomyces cerevisiase is the name of the yeast, and not a yeast protein. Components within the yeast cell (i.e enzymes make the DNA gene into RNA, ribosomes make the RNA into protein) use the surface antigen gene to make large amounts of the surface antigen protein. The surface antigen protein is then purified from the yeast culture, which means the HBV surface antigen is separated from the yeast cell components, including all genomic DNA and plasmid DNA. The preparation does contain yeast proteins.

This is one reference that describes the above process that is available online (I don't know if this is the actual vector that is used in the vaccine, but it really doesn't matter as the technique would be the same. Other references are available if you have access to a medical library.)

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...7&blobtype=pdf

What are you talking about?

Recombinant DNA is a form of synthetic DNA thereby combining DNA sequences that would not normally occur together.[1] In terms of genetic modification, recombinant DNA is produced through the addition of relevant DNA into an existing organismal genome, such as the plasmid of bacteria, to code for or alter different traits for a specific purpose, such as immunity.[1] It differs from genetic recombination, in that it does not occur through processes within the cell or ribosome, but is exclusively engineered.[1] Recombinant protein is protein that is derived from recombinant DNA.

Since it's a recombinant DNA, tell me the 2 DNAs inside the vaccine.

The plasmid vector is the yeast protein aka Saccharomyces cerevisiase

Saccharomyces cerevisiae contains an acidic cytoplasmic protein named Gir2. Alves and Castilho (2005) have suggested that this protein lacks extensive seconday structure.

Here's a video to guide you about plasmids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acKWdNj936o

[gr8blessings]

Originally Posted by Th1Th2

OK. Can you tell me which organ in the body produces formaldehyde?

The formaldehyde is not produced by an organ, it is produced by the cells as part of their cellular metabolism. But this is off-topic to the thread.

gr8blessings

[Th1Th2]

Originally Posted by gr8blessings

The formaldehyde is not produced by an organ, it is produced by the cells as part of their cellular metabolism. But this is off-topic to the thread.

gr8blessings

Remember, cells form the tissues, and tissues form the organs. So which cell in a tissue of an organ produces FORMALDEHYDE? You can post your reply in the formaldehyde thread.

[gr8blessings]

Originally Posted by Th1Th2

Since it's a recombinant DNA, tell me the 2 DNAs inside the vaccine.

There is no DNA in the vaccine.

The plasmid vector is the yeast protein aka Saccharomyces cerevisiase

No, a plasmid is a piece of circular DNA. A plasmid replicates within a cell. In this case, the cell is a yeast cell. The name of the yeast is S. cerevisiae

Here's a video to guide you about plasmids: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acKWdNj936o

I don't need guidance about plasmids. I have done my fair share of recombinant DNA techniques in both eukaryotic and prokaryotic organisms. That's a pretty good video of the process. Once you have watched it, go read the paper about the HepB vaccine and apply what you have learned.

gr8blessings

[Th1Th2]

Originally Posted by gr8blessings

This is one reference that describes the above process that is available online (I don't know if this is the actual vector that is used in the vaccine, but it really doesn't matter as the technique would be the same. Other references are available if you have access to a medical library.)

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/pic...7&blobtype=pdf

I know exactly why you are confused. Your source is dated September 10, 1982 and the only Hepatitis vaccine available in the market at that time was a plasma-derived Hep B vaccine. This is entirely different from the Recombinant hepatitis B vaccine which was licensed in 1986.

Hepatitis B Vaccine

Characteristics
A plasma-derived vaccine was licensed in the United States in 1981. It was produced from 22-nm HBsAg particles purified from the plasma of human carriers. The vaccine was safe and effective but was not well accepted, possibly because of unsubstantiated fears of transmission of live HBV and other bloodborne pathogens (e.g., human immunodeficiency virus). This vaccine was removed from the U.S. market in 1992.

Recombinant hepatitis B vaccine was licensed in the United States in July 1986, and was the first licensed vaccine in the United States produced by recombinant DNA technology. A second, similar vaccine was licensed in August 1989.

Now you can regain your thoughts again.

[gr8blessings]

Originally Posted by Th1Th2

Remember, cells form the tissues, and tissues form the organs. So which cell in a tissue of an organ produces FORMALDEHYDE? You can post your reply in the formaldehyde thread.

All of the cells in all of the tissues in all of the organs.

Formaldehyde is necessary for cell survival. It is involved in the cellular metabolism.

gr8blessings