Will there ever be a student loan bailout? - Page 2

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by Dar

I know so many people who owe so much money... like, 80K - 100K or more... and they're going to have degrees in anthropology when they're done, if they finish! One friend who owes 80K just dropped out, so she has an MPH and an M.A... another has over 100K in loans and hasn't even done her fieldwork yet, so she's nowhere near getting her PhD.

I don't know... they'll be paying close to $1000 a month, the way I figure it. I know people who stay in school and keep racking up loans because if they drop out they have to start repaying the loans... so it sort of snowballs.

I don't have a lot of loans - I wish I didn't have any, but then I'm also glad I took them so I could spend more time with my daughter. They're all interest deferred, too, so they won't accrue interest until after I graduate, and I shouldn't need to take any more. It does seem like a big problem for a lot of people, though...

dar

My very practical question is this: if someone is going into a field where there aren't many jobs, or at least not ones that pay very well, such as anthropology, why do they rack up so much in loans and then talk about how difficult it is to pay them off?

I can understand racking up a lot of loans for law, medicine, engineering, etc., but anthropology or religious studies?

I also don't get the thinking of attending a pricey private school for something like education. Someone I know is attending a private school for an education degree. She's got so much in loans that she's going to have to move home for a while after graduation this spring, to work on paying them off before she can get married.

She'd still have loans if she had gone to a state school, but nowhere NEAR as much!

I'd appreciate someone explaining this thinking to me, because I don't get it. I went to a second-tier state school for journalism (1987-1991). Parents paid tuition and some of rent and I paid everything else. Lived pretty frugal, no car, etc. No loans. I only worked as a reporter for 16 months, but having that journalism degree on my resume has been very helpful (given the lack of communications skills many have, my employers have been happy to see that - I can't tell you how many MBAs I've seen who can't spell very common words - and in emails to customers, too!)

[ShaggyDaddy]

Originally Posted by bigeyes

it's the only debt that makes sense.

blanket statements are the real problem. There is no debt that universally "good" as housing and student loans were both considered untill very recently.

Originally Posted by bigeyes

Payments should be income based or something.

Projected income SHOULD be the basis on the amount you were originally planning to borrow. The fact that loans must be repayed and projected salary differentials should not be a surprise to anyone... and if they are a surprise, well then the cultural problem of "student loan debt is the only debt that makes sense" has reared its ugly head. If you borrowed money in order to enhance future income, and that income is not what you have gambled it to be, well then you lost the gamble, it sucks but it is true. That is the fundamental difference between planning and gambling.

Originally Posted by bigeyes

employers want to know why you don't have an education at your age.

Questions in interviews are not rhetorical. If you have no good answer of course that is bad. Depending on the position, most non-idiot employers will respond very well to: "I did a cost benefit analysis on the pros and cons of halting my career to borrow money for college, and it might surprise you how much more risk I was facing had I made financial commitments without solid prospects for paying them back. Since then I have had plenty of time to prove my skill and worth through X,Y,Z and have developed a skill-set that is not for sale in an institutional setting, and has to be earned over years of hard work in the front lines of the real world."

[Leta]

Yeah, but the crux of the problem is this:

Say you want to be a teacher. In my state, an education degree takes 5 years. EASILY. The nearby university, where DH works, is the cheapest in our state. Yes, it's public, and an education school.

Even still, it costs $15,000 per year if you live on campus. Off campus, it's about $7000 per year, but you're paying rent and buying groceries, so it's basically a wash, unless you are lucky enough to live with your parents the entire time, and only work part time to pay for your car.

That's $75,000. For the cheapest public school. To get an ed degree. Again, in my state, public school teachers can expect to make $25,000 their first year, and only break $35,000 after they get tenure.

(Even if you get a full Pell grant, that's about $4200 bucks a year. I also managed to snag a state scholarship for another $1500 per year, and a honor society scholarship for $500. But I still had to live and pay for books and transportation. I worked at least part time all through school, and still racked up $5-$7000 in loans per year. If I hadn't, I would have either had to drop out or have been homeless, and I am not exaggerating.)

If we tell kids not to take out more loans than their first year's expected salary (which is what they're starting to do) what person in her right mind is going to become a public school teacher?

Even if you homeschool, that's EVERYONE'S problem, folks. Many public service professions are low paid, but require education. We are in an educational economy that is not sustainable, because tuition is continuing to outpace inflation, even in this miserable economy.

My solution is to reform education spending AFTER we enact a cap on tuition for public universities. But I'd love to hear other ideas, because this whole loans after loans thing isn't gonna work for much longer.

[Mulvah]

Community college is a brilliant option for two (+) years. In addition, CLEP, Dantes, etc., can assist in cutting credits where applicable and transferable.

Originally Posted by sunnmama

The other option is work and pay as you go (either the parents or the student).

I completely agree.

[annethcz]

Originally Posted by bigeyes

I keep thinking about what a horrible obstacle this is to our children's future. You have to have college to have a shot at a decent income, but you start out with this awful debt that keeps you in the hole for years....it seems like no matter what you do you're destined to have several years of living on very little money.

I don't think this is true. As many people have posted here, a college degree isn't a guarantee of a well-paying job. And, anecdotally, I know of many people who never graduated from college and yet worked their way into high paying professional jobs.

While the statistics do say that those with a college degree have higher salaries on average, there will always be people who make above- or below- average salaries. Like anything else, a degree is a tool. It's up to the individual to use their education to the best of their ability.

Originally Posted by bigeyes

I think the worst mistake anyone can make is to put off going to school. AFAIC it's the only debt that makes sense. But paying it off shouldn't be so rough. Payments should be income based or something.

In many cases, payments already ARE based on income. Those with very low incomes can often defer their payments.

Originally Posted by Leta

Yeah, but the crux of the problem is this:

Say you want to be a teacher. In my state, an education degree takes 5 years. EASILY. The nearby university, where DH works, is the cheapest in our state. Yes, it's public, and an education school.

Even still, it costs $15,000 per year if you live on campus. Off campus, it's about $7000 per year, but you're paying rent and buying groceries, so it's basically a wash, unless you are lucky enough to live with your parents the entire time, and only work part time to pay for your car.

That's $75,000. For the cheapest public school. To get an ed degree. Again, in my state, public school teachers can expect to make $25,000 their first year, and only break $35,000 after they get tenure.

If you attend a community college for the 1st two years, you can probably knock $20K or so off that total amount. Also, are 5 years of school required, or do people just stretch it out that far? If people sat down to THINK about it before signing up for classes, they might decide that it's worth it to buckle down and get through the program in 4 years if they know it's going to cost them an extra $15K.

I agree with ShaggyDaddy that a cultural bias towards education at any cost is working against us here. Young people with very little life experience are told that to succeed in life, they need a college degree. Private schools are assumed to be better (because the more expensive something is, the better it is, right?). And student loans are so common as to be thought inevitable.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by Leta

it costs $15,000 per year if you live on campus. Off campus, it's about $7000 per year, but you're paying rent and buying groceries, so it's basically a wash, unless you are lucky enough to live with your parents the entire time, and only work part time to pay for your car.

That's $75,000. For the cheapest public school. .

People underestimate how much money a student can earn while going to school. It isn't as much fun to go to work, rather than watch tv or go to parties, but it surely isn't impossible. If a student works 15-20 hours a week, and earns 7-10k a year, that will significantly offset the eventual loans.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by Tradd

My very practical question is this: if someone is going into a field where there aren't many jobs, or at least not ones that pay very well, such as anthropology, why do they rack up so much in loans and then talk about how difficult it is to pay them off?

I can understand racking up a lot of loans for law, medicine, engineering, etc., but anthropology or religious studies?

Yup. I'm with you - I don't get it either.

Dar

[Leta]

This is NOT a generalization, and not true across the board, but, in this state, it is very difficult to transfer from a cc to university if you are getting a EDUCATION degree.

There's a few reasons for this, but they are all boring, so I won't go into them unless pressed for details.

And yes, in MI, an ed degree takes a full five years to get. A typical bachelor's is in the range of 124 credit hours, or about 16 ch per semester, assuming that you don't drop or fail anything, and that you don't take summer classes.

An education degree here is anywhere from 148 to 16some credit hours, depending on what you're trying to get certified in. That's a full year more, maybe even two.

I seriously considered getting a teaching degree, but after doing the math and finding out my cc credits wouldn't transfer, I said no thanks.

I always made more than $10,000 per year when I was working in college, but it costs more than that to live. College towns tend to be expensive. You have extra transportation and other expenses (books are $$$). It's hard to work, go to school, AND pinch pennies. I ate a lot of Ragu and box of pasta dinners, and bought books online whenever I could, but I still had to rely on fast food and the college book store sometimes. It's impossible to research every purchase to death, sleep, earn money and keep your grades up.

I'm not saying that people should or should not go to college. I'm just saying that if people don't get educations that lead them into public service because of the cost-benefit analysis, we all will suffer.

[RoadWorkAhead]

And there are programs for teachers student loans to be repaid for that reason. They require sacrifice, but they are a choice. Same is true of some forms of social work, etc.

Also, while it raises the cost some, 160 credit hours is a 4 year class load with summer school. If i'm going to have living expenses, might as well go to school and reduce overall length and cost.

But alas, I have no dog in this fight, I have no loans as I had a full ride and then some.

[oneKnight]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

The other option is work and pay as you go (either the parents or the student).

Doesn't work out very well.

Me, working part time and going to school, never sleeping, getting skin problems as a result of the strees . . .
paying rent, utilities, car insurance and gas (to get to the JOB and school since I couldn't live on campus) clothes, food, ETC. there's just not enough $$ leftover after paying the bills to buy more than one or maybe two classes per semester IF nothing "comes up". Oh and I was on foodstamps during the above scenario because we literally had $40 left for two weeks for two adults!

Someone working part-time at an entry level job simply can NOT make enough to support themselves AND pay tuition/books/fees.

[Free Thinker]

I agree w/ ShaggyDaddy, and we are currently not going to either encourage or discourage our kids from going to college. DH was going to go after HS, but he couldnt think of anything he wanted to do, so he got a job instead. IT about killed his (teacher) mother, but he just didn't want to do something that required a degree. He is very smart and successful! I did go to college for 2 years, on scholarships and living at home, and the second year w/ DH (who worked, I didn't but he paid the bills). I never took out any student loans, but the second year I did have to pay more b/c some of my scholarships were only for one year. I thought I wanted to be a teacher. We decided after the 2 year degree taht I would stop school and substitute and help DH run his new business. Long story short, 9 years later and I would NEVER go to school to be a teacher. I don't think you could pay me enough! What did I know at 18 about who I would really be at 25? I have changed so much since then, and my interests are very different. We will encourage our kids to go to either a technical training school, a local CC, or there is a work-thru school that is a few hours from here that is affordable. I also feel it's important for my kids to work for their education, so they have a vested interest in succeeding.

[gingerbane]

Originally Posted by Kierdan'sMom

And there are programs for teachers student loans to be repaid for that reason.

There are some programs some places for some types of teachers.

Don't think that just because you are a teacher there is always a program out there to help you out with loans. It usually isn't that much anyway.

And to all those not understanding why someone would take out $$$ loans for a degree in English or anthropology or whatever, that is exactly the point I think those with that type of loan are trying to make - They didn't know.

NOTE: I am going to make a generalization :

When you are 18, 19, 20, etc, so often you do not understand the big picture and therefore the consequences of what 5-10 years later you would call an "un-wise" decision.

I know plenty of people who at that age just didn't know and whose parent's didn't know enough to tell them either (DH is one of them).

I have also met a few who didn't realize that their low GPA or non-accredited degree would affect their ability to get into grad school. At that age, there are just so many things that you just don't know unless someone sits you down point blank and tells you and really, how often does that happen.

Student loan holders may not get a bailout but the whole college/student loan system needs an overhaul. As it stands right now, I do believe it to be predatory.

[Belleweather]

If you want a bail out, contact your senators, representatives, and the president. There's already a big push through several of the political action committees connected to Obama to do something with student loan debt, either forgiveness or increased forbearance, or moving everything to the new 10 year repayment program (so you make 120 on-time payments and the remainder is forgiven).

But none of that is going to happen if we don't make enough noise about it.

Originally Posted by Leta

Well, on the upside, Income Based Repayment begins on, I believe, July 1 of this year. While it is certainly not a bailout, it is a big improvement.

It IS a HUGE improvement. I swear, when I first read about that bill, I wanted to give Ted Kennedy sexual favors. It's cutting our payments from $800 a month on the old income-based plan to $400 a month, and considering that we've got $176k in student loans and my husband is unemployed, that's an unbelievable improvement for us.

(And before anyone gives me crap about that number, that would be for one low-mid priced private school BA with scholarships and grants, one public school law education where one year was paid for by federal stipend and one public school BS where the first 2 years were done at a community college. School is just EXPENSIVE, especially if you have a family while you're doing it.)

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

The other option is work and pay as you go (either the parents or the student).

True, but the reality is, in the working world now, most employers want you to be available all the time and are much less understanding about people needing to be off for other responsibilities.

I think our children are going to have a much more difficult time doing things than we did. When I was growing up it was perfectly feasible for us to work part time after school and pay for a car, insurance and gasoline. Our children don't have a prayer of making enough after school to pay for those things with prices what they are now, because wages have not kept up with inflation.

When I was 16, I got a decent used car for $800 and my first brand new car was $8000. How much are our children going to need to pay for a decent used car? And how much money can they expect to make working part time? Can they reasonably expect to be able to move out, pay rent, afford the upkeep on a vehicle and pay off student loans when they're out of school?

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by annethcz

In many cases, payments already ARE based on income. Those with very low incomes can often defer their payments.

And the whole time you're deferring payment, aren't they racking up more interest? That's not doing you any good, is it?

I just remember my ex having grants, and me paying for a whole bunch of his stuff, yet he got out and we still had huge amounts to pay off on the loans.

[Leta]

Originally Posted by Belleweather

If you want a bail out, contact your senators, representatives, and the president. There's already a big push through several of the political action committees connected to Obama to do something with student loan debt, either forgiveness or increased forbearance, or moving everything to the new 10 year repayment program (so you make 120 on-time payments and the remainder is forgiven).

But none of that is going to happen if we don't make enough noise about it.

Belleweather, you are absolutely right. (While we're at it, let's suggest a reformed Farm Bill, shall we?) I mean, this is so reasonable- 120 on time payments and then forgiveness. This solves the public service problem.

And, come on, you can rack up five figures of debt on cars and shoes and electronics and file for bankruptcy and be forgiven... but you can't make a mistake in your late teens and end up with a degree that doesn't pay well without being stuck? That doesn't exactly seem fair, now does it?

Not only that, here's some more fun math. In the 70's, minimum wage was $2 something an hour. Our local university cost $22 per credit hour. (I am not making this up.) Now, in MI, minimum wage is $7.45 an hour, and the U costs $277 per credit hour. Just credit hours, not fees, books, transportation, anything else.

In the 70's, you could work all summer, full time, at minimum wage, and if you lived with your parents and saved every penny, you'd have about $1300 before taxes- enough to pay for FOUR semesters worth of tution (assuming 15 ch per semester). If you worked full every summer and lived frugally, you could conceivably work part time during school and pay for everything out of pocket. Even after taxes, you'd have enough from your summer earnings to pay for both your semesters of college that year ($660), as well as your fees (prob. only another $50-$100, as they are about $200 per year now), and your books. Shoot, you could do that and still put gas in your car all summer long. You wouldn't need financial aid, and while this is assuming very helpful and supportive parents, they wouldn't have to pay your tuition.

Now, if you worked FT all summer and saved everything, you'd have about $4800 before taxes- enough to pay for ONE semester of school. You might have enough left over to pay for that semester's worth of books, too. So not only could you not keep gas in your car, you are still going to into debt to pay half your tuition alone, not to mention other expenses and needing to live.

In other words, as a practical matter, it's four times as hard to work your way through school now.

[gingerbane]

:

Well said Leta.

Belleweather - I just looked up my congressmen and will be writing to all of them.

[bigeyes]

Originally Posted by Leta

Belleweather, you are absolutely right. (While we're at it, let's suggest a reformed Farm Bill, shall we?) I mean, this is so reasonable- 120 on time payments and then forgiveness. This solves the public service problem.

And, come on, you can rack up five figures of debt on cars and shoes and electronics and file for bankruptcy and be forgiven... but you can't make a mistake in your late teens and end up with a degree that doesn't pay well without being stuck? That doesn't exactly seem fair, now does it?

Not only that, here's some more fun math. In the 70's, minimum wage was $2 something an hour. Our local university cost $22 per credit hour. (I am not making this up.) Now, in MI, minimum wage is $7.45 an hour, and the U costs $277 per credit hour. Just credit hours, not fees, books, transportation, anything else.

In the 70's, you could work all summer, full time, at minimum wage, and if you lived with your parents and saved every penny, you'd have about $1300 before taxes- enough to pay for FOUR semesters worth of tution (assuming 15 ch per semester). If you worked full every summer and lived frugally, you could conceivably work part time during school and pay for everything out of pocket. Even after taxes, you'd have enough from your summer earnings to pay for both your semesters of college that year ($660), as well as your fees (prob. only another $50-$100, as they are about $200 per year now), and your books. Shoot, you could do that and still put gas in your car all summer long. You wouldn't need financial aid, and while this is assuming very helpful and supportive parents, they wouldn't have to pay your tuition.

Now, if you worked FT all summer and saved everything, you'd have about $4800 before taxes- enough to pay for ONE semester of school. You might have enough left over to pay for that semester's worth of books, too. So not only could you not keep gas in your car, you are still going to into debt to pay half your tuition alone, not to mention other expenses and needing to live.

In other words, as a practical matter, it's four times as hard to work your way through school now.

Exactly. When I was a kid, I bought my first car at 16, paid for my own gas, insurance and upkeep, still moved out at 18, paid my own bill and put someone else through school.

My children don't have a prayer of making enough money at a part time job to buy their first car, much less put themselves through school while working. Wages have not kept up with inflation.

[zonapellucida]

OMG Mine have been defered or forbeared for ever!! I owe more in interest than I do in loans! 35 grand they are probably never going to see becasue I will be dead first.

[Embo]

Originally Posted by Tradd

My very practical question is this: if someone is going into a field where there aren't many jobs, or at least not ones that pay very well, such as anthropology, why do they rack up so much in loans and then talk about how difficult it is to pay them off?

I can understand racking up a lot of loans for law, medicine, engineering, etc., but anthropology or religious studies?

)

While I agree we should all try to do a much better job managing our money in undergrad or grad school (not take out as many loans, not go to really expensive private schools, etc.) I think this discussion is disturbingly snarky about people who work in the social sciences and humanities. If your kids do choose to go to college, don't you want them to have an education that includes history, philosophy, and anthropology?

Anthropology teaches people about the diversity of our world, how to approach complex issues and problems, and how to write clearly. And who do you think does the research that backs up much of this community's claims about mothering? Um, anthropologists. (And psychologists, sociologists, and historians, of course). In the 1960s and 70s, feminist anthropologists turned their attention to gender and sexuality across the globe. And they realized that the Western way of raising babies is not the only one. I know not all of you root your parenting choices in this history, but the next time you discuss the research on co-sleeping or baby-wearing (and it usually draws on cross-cultural comparison), thank an anthropologist.

The central problem here is not the silly people who chose to work (or have a calling to work) in poor-paying fields, but a society and government that doesn't value education, teaching, or learning.

Embo
anthropologist & mama