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Will there ever be a student loan bailout? - Page 14

post #261 of 282
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I'm tired of hearing "Oh, I was 18... didn't know what I was doing..." Baloney... if you're old enough to enter a higher institution of learning, you damned well be old enough to understand the responsibility of debt.
In my state, you can't buy alcohol (or cigarettes) until you are 21, because the state has determined that, among other things, people under 21 will not drink responsibly or will put others at risk. Why then, do we assume that if some kids are not mature enough to drink when they are 17, that they are mature enough to sign a promissory note for tens of thousands of dollars? If all is fair in love and war, then under-21 college kids should be allowed to drink/buy alcohol. If you're mature enough to take out 100k to finance your education, then have a beer please.

I still stand by my earlier proposition that more counseling needs to be done on the front end (by either the loan companies or the admissions offices) so that potential students are made more aware of the possible pitfalls of repayment and whether or not the industry of their choice is going to be an adequate avenue for paying off certain loans.

There are times when I get frustrated with others' irresponsibilities and when I feel comforted because my own life choices have reaped positive benefits. I have learned, though, that when you start to see what was once a localized problem (only a select few defaulting), turn into an epidemic, then something is wrong at the root of the system.
post #262 of 282
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Meanwhile, we give our tax dollars to wealthy men with corporate jets, and all they had to do was stick their hands out. That makes no sense to me at all. Women and children are expected to be humiliated for being poor, but wealthy men can squander our tax dollars and we aren't supposed to even look down our noses at them because it's just business.
I agree with this. What is funny is that corporations are "persons" in the eyes of the law (they can sue and be sued...they are required to pay taxes...they must abide by certain rules and laws). Of course, I say all this with jest because corporations are the first to get tax cuts, the first to get bailouts, the first to get subsidies, the first to plead for lax environmental restrictions and bankruptcy laws. I still can't figure out myself why people aren't more outraged at the complete irresponsibility, greed and criminality that takes place on the corporate level and at very real expense, to us...the taxpayers. It perplexes me.
post #263 of 282
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Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post
I agree with this. What is funny is that corporations are "persons" in the eyes of the law (they can sue and be sued...they are required to pay taxes...they must abide by certain rules and laws). Of course, I say all this with jest because corporations are the first to get tax cuts, the first to get bailouts, the first to get subsidies, the first to plead for lax environmental restrictions and bankruptcy laws. I still can't figure out myself why people aren't more outraged at the complete irresponsibility, greed and criminality that takes place on the corporate level and at very real expense, to us...the taxpayers. It perplexes me.
Oh they do, but only at WalMart. Many businesses are getting huge tax breaks, screwing their workers over with lousy insurance, or no insurance and low wages, and corporate welfare is the biggest drain there is, but people spend so much time worrying some woman might be getting $10 more in food stamps than she's entitled to it just kills me.

The big guys keep taking and the little guy keeps being scrutinized. Makes no sense whatsoever. And the gap between the haves and the have nots grows wider every year.
post #264 of 282
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Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post
In my state, you can't buy alcohol (or cigarettes) until you are 21, because the state has determined that, among other things, people under 21 will not drink responsibly or will put others at risk. Why then, do we assume that if some kids are not mature enough to drink when they are 17, that they are mature enough to sign a promissory note for tens of thousands of dollars? If all is fair in love and war, then under-21 college kids should be allowed to drink/buy alcohol. If you're mature enough to take out 100k to finance your education, then have a beer please.
You can also die for your country and vote at 18. Perhaps the the powers that be think that voting, being in the military and taking out loans don't mix with alcohol. (I'm joking, btw.)

I agree with you, but that is an argument about the drinking age, not about taking out school loans.
post #265 of 282
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Originally Posted by bigeyes View Post
Oh they do, but only at WalMart. Many businesses are getting huge tax breaks, screwing their workers over with lousy insurance, or no insurance and low wages, and corporate welfare is the biggest drain there is, but people spend so much time worrying some woman might be getting $10 more in food stamps than she's entitled to it just kills me.

The big guys keep taking and the little guy keeps being scrutinized. Makes no sense whatsoever. And the gap between the haves and the have nots grows wider every year.
post #266 of 282
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Originally Posted by BetsyS View Post
I'm not looking for a bailout, nor do I expect one to come for student loans.

However, I can understand how people can be surprised by the far-reaching effects of debt. I'm one of them.

I *totally* get that it's my money to pay back. I have every intention of doing so. It's just that it sometimes feels harsh to have people sit and say, "well, you fool! How could you not have known?"

Well, there are lots of ways that you could not have known. For me, my parents were not.good.with.money.at.all. It was normal and expected that everyone was in some level of debt. My dad's own student loans were repaid by garnishment. Hello!!! Not good with money.

As an adult, I can see how debt limits your choices, and I have made steps to break that debt cycle (my people were sharecroppers; the cycle goes way back). However, that's something that I honestly didn't know at 18 (or 22). It took me being an adult, paying my own way, to get that lesson.

My dh is the first in his family to graduate from college. His parents didn't put much emphasis on not going into debt, because they had never been in debt themselves. They (and he) assumed that he would pay his loans off quickly. Life got in the way, and that didn't happen.

Once again...not looking for a handout. Just the understanding that just because you get into trouble with student loans doesn't mean that you are stupid. Naive, yes. Uninformed, yes. Woefully ignorant, absolutely. Will you end up in your 30s wishing that you could redo your 20s? Probably. But not stupid.
: Except that I was the first one in my family to go to college and this was after a failed marriage and years of being a single Mama. Sadly not everyone has the same choices or access to information and to say otherwise is crazy. Its the same argument that says anyone can pull themselves up by the bootstraps, that's assuming we all start the race with some boots or straps.

As I like to say depending on the year when we were growing up we were either poor if it was a bad year, working class in a good year. My folks never had any money, I don't recall them ever having a bank account when I was a kid, they just went to the check cashing joints. I share this to say that because I had no exposure to a financial education when I was a kid, I made a lot of bad choices in my late teens and 20's and while I am laden with a ton of student loan debt, fact is my education opened up doors that never would have been open otherwise.

Looking back, maybe there was a better way to finance my education but seeing as how I had tried the community college route and juggling it with a 40 hour a week job and a small child it was hell on earth. So I made the best choices I could at that time.
post #267 of 282
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You can also die for your country and vote at 18. Perhaps the the powers that be think that voting, being in the military and taking out loans don't mix with alcohol. (I'm joking, btw.)

I agree with you, but that is an argument about the drinking age, not about taking out school loans.
I know...and perhaps I was being snarky about using that...but the point I was trying to make was that responsibility seems to come in many shades. I didn't take out my first student loan until I was 37, and even then it was a very huge decision. Was I mature enough at 17 to do the same? Probably, but I also chose to go to art school at 17. When I was 37, I chose to go to law school. Law school? Higher return on the investment. Art school, not such a high return unless I was some kind of art star. People change, people make different decisions as they age, people gain maturity with experience. I'm not saying it is an excuse for defaulting on your loans...just saying that not all people have reached the level of maturity at 17 to map out their entire lives.
post #268 of 282
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Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post
I know...and perhaps I was being snarky about using that...but the point I was trying to make was that responsibility seems to come in many shades. I didn't take out my first student loan until I was 37, and even then it was a very huge decision. Was I mature enough at 17 to do the same? Probably, but I also chose to go to art school at 17. When I was 37, I chose to go to law school. Law school? Higher return on the investment. Art school, not such a high return unless I was some kind of art star. People change, people make different decisions as they age, people gain maturity with experience. I'm not saying it is an excuse for defaulting on your loans...just saying that not all people have reached the level of maturity at 17 to map out their entire lives.
Exactly. And if you're lucky, you were born to people with money sense. I wasn't.

My parents gave my younger brother money advice that led them straight to bankruptcy and foreclosure. My parents still live on credit.

My older brother married a woman who came from people who are financially savvy and he lets her handle all the money. He freely admits they would have nothing if he didn't. I am also aware that if my dh's family were not good with money my children would probably not be looking at much of a future. I've learned more about money in the past 5 years than I have in my entire life. I made so many stupid mistakes with money in my 20s it blows my mind. I even cosigned my now ex's student loans.

At least he's paying them now, nobody's come after me for money in the past 10 years.

We were just talking about how important it is to teach the kids how to handle money so they don't end up making mistakes that cost them. I know you can't protect them from everything, but I hope telling them some of the really stupid things I did will help them know what not to do.
post #269 of 282
Hey, I read the last few and I hope my posts didn't make it seem like I said if you come out with loans you didn't work hard enough. DH and I came out with loans - we worked hard while in school to keep them to a minimum, but we still came out with them - and we spent MANY MANY years paying them off.
post #270 of 282
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Originally Posted by bigeyes View Post
Exactly. And if you're lucky, you were born to people with money sense. I wasn't.
Neither was I. Hell, my mom lives with us now because of money, not health, issues. My father taught me a lot about general living skills, and he was good with money, but what I know now is mostly from books.

ANYONE can get money sense. They just need to take the time to read.
post #271 of 282
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Originally Posted by velochic View Post
Neither was I. Hell, my mom lives with us now because of money, not health, issues. My father taught me a lot about general living skills, and he was good with money, but what I know now is mostly from books.

ANYONE can get money sense. They just need to take the time to read.

Generally I agree with you 100% and while I do think anyone can get money sense. Its my own experience based off coming from a family where no one had any money sense it is harder to get that sense. I have always been an avid reader but at 18 when I ran off and got married I wasn't reading up on finance. Instead I pretty much screwed up my finances and credit big time in my 20's, making the types of mistakes my folks made....its only been in recent years and I am almost 40 now that I have started to get in a better place with money. Of course the damage was done but now I know better.

Shay
post #272 of 282
me too. As long as I was making good money and paying the bills, it was all good.

It was when my department got the axe and I had to start looking for something new to do that it all went downhill. That's when your money mistakes come home to roost.

It was long after all this that I was watching Oprah and saw all those young people going on about how they were too smart to let it happen to them, and I thought yeah, right. That's how everyone gets into that mess. You think you're making plenty of money and it's all good. But if you don't have good money sense, you're setting yourself up for a fall. And if you don't think anything bad can ever happen to you, you're incredibly naive....or 21 and still bulletproof.

You either learn this stuff at your parents' knees and don't have to think about it, or you learn it the hard way. I don't want my kids to have to learn it the hard way.
post #273 of 282
Also, who's money advice do you follow. Which "expert"? Because I've heard some really stupid advice given by "experts".
post #274 of 282
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Originally Posted by velochic View Post
Neither was I. Hell, my mom lives with us now because of money, not health, issues. My father taught me a lot about general living skills, and he was good with money, but what I know now is mostly from books.

ANYONE can get money sense. They just need to take the time to read.
I agree with you (again). I think this is exactly analogous to becoming an attachment-style parent even though you weren't raised that way. You simply LEARN, because you are motivated to be different. "But my parents didn't teach me how" is I feel as irrelevant to financial management as it is to gentle discipline. I just shake my head when someone says, for instance, that they hit their kids "because that's all I [the hitter] know" and yet they, the hitting parent, says she wants to be different. Then be different! If you find it difficult to be different, then go read a book or join a website and learn! (And I am saying this as a child of abuse, who has never even yelled at her child, and frankly finds it pretty darned easy to avoid becoming an abuser.) We are far, far more capable and informed than that; our learning didn't stop at our birth-home walls.
post #275 of 282
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Originally Posted by velochic View Post
ANYONE can get money sense. They just need to take the time to read.
But for some people, not knowing that you can educate yourself by taking the time to read is *part* of their lack of money sense. If people grow up a certain way, they don't even know about the existance of the world of financial planning & budgeting. Or if they do, it's seen as a faraway Wall Street thing for rich businessmen, not the average person trying to get by day to day.
post #276 of 282
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Originally Posted by Maeve View Post
Also, who's money advice do you follow. Which "expert"? Because I've heard some really stupid advice given by "experts".
That's the scary part!

And when you have only seen people do things that were, in retrospect, all wrong, sometimes just doing the opposite isn't necessarily the right thing either.

Sometimes doing stuff wrong is the way to learn, but it's so much easier if you have good examples growing up and can just follow them instead. Just like attachment parenting. It really helps to have good financial role models.
post #277 of 282
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I agree with you (again). I think this is exactly analogous to becoming an attachment-style parent even though you weren't raised that way. You simply LEARN, because you are motivated to be different. "But my parents didn't teach me how" is I feel as irrelevant to financial management as it is to gentle discipline. I just shake my head when someone says, for instance, that they hit their kids "because that's all I [the hitter] know" and yet they, the hitting parent, says she wants to be different. Then be different! If you find it difficult to be different, then go read a book or join a website and learn! (And I am saying this as a child of abuse, who has never even yelled at her child, and frankly finds it pretty darned easy to avoid becoming an abuser.) We are far, far more capable and informed than that; our learning didn't stop at our birth-home walls.
This is a great viewpoint if: 1) you are motivated to do so; 2) if you can break out of the cycle; and 3) there are available resources or outside mentoring that point people in the right direction. While I agree that many people have been able to rise above the most dire of circumstances and become responsible, moral and compassionate adults, I also believe that behaviors are passed down from generation to generation for a lot of families. If this were not the case, we wouldn't be dealing with persistent poverty and ill-guidance on so many levels in our society and in our world. Most of my lessons in life were learned either from experience or mentoring from someone who took the time to advise me that there was a better way to do things. This doesn't mean, though, that my own experiences are a reflection of society as a whole. In most cases, I feel out of the norm and wonder why I was so fortunate in my station in life.

I don't underestimate the fact that many people have epiphanies about direction in life or that they see something inherently wrong with the way they were raised. But, in my business I'm constantly bombarded with the overwhelming number of people who never break out of that cycle. The lack of literacy and basic critical thinking in this country (US) is profound, and the emphasis on greed and the acquisition of material things at all costs is disturbing. I don't think our country would be in the financial straights that it is now if many individuals and the people who run corporations had any basic sense of responsibility or an inherent desire to do the right thing. Something is wrong under the surface and whether it is a parental problem, an educational problem or a lack-of-consequences problem, it has to be addressed soon.

I do think that parents play a huge role in how you learn to address certain issues in life. I don't think anyone here is blaming their parents for how they turned out in life, but I can't blame those same individuals for not having the proper tools at the get-go. If they do acquire the experience and don't learn from their mistakes, then of course I would feel differently. I think that learning from mistakes is a powerful tool, but I think ultimately it is a parent's responsibility to place their children into society well-equipped to make the right decisions and to think critically.
post #278 of 282
Quote:
Originally Posted by CatsCradle View Post
This is a great viewpoint if: 1) you are motivated to do so; 2) if you can break out of the cycle; and 3) there are available resources or outside mentoring that point people in the right direction. While I agree that many people have been able to rise above the most dire of circumstances and become responsible, moral and compassionate adults, I also believe that behaviors are passed down from generation to generation for a lot of families. If this were not the case, we wouldn't be dealing with persistent poverty and ill-guidance on so many levels in our society and in our world. Most of my lessons in life were learned either from experience or mentoring from someone who took the time to advise me that there was a better way to do things. This doesn't mean, though, that my own experiences are a reflection of society as a whole. In most cases, I feel out of the norm and wonder why I was so fortunate in my station in life.

I don't underestimate the fact that many people have epiphanies about direction in life or that they see something inherently wrong with the way they were raised. But, in my business I'm constantly bombarded with the overwhelming number of people who never break out of that cycle. The lack of literacy and basic critical thinking in this country (US) is profound, and the emphasis on greed and the acquisition of material things at all costs is disturbing. I don't think our country would be in the financial straights that it is now if many individuals and the people who run corporations had any basic sense of responsibility or an inherent desire to do the right thing. Something is wrong under the surface and whether it is a parental problem, an educational problem or a lack-of-consequences problem, it has to be addressed soon.

I do think that parents play a huge role in how you learn to address certain issues in life. I don't think anyone here is blaming their parents for how they turned out in life, but I can't blame those same individuals for not having the proper tools at the get-go. If they do acquire the experience and don't learn from their mistakes, then of course I would feel differently. I think that learning from mistakes is a powerful tool, but I think ultimately it is a parent's responsibility to place their children into society well-equipped to make the right decisions and to think critically.
Yes! And I still have days where I feel like I hear my mother's voice coming out of my mouth! When you have been around something dysfunctional for many years, even when you know it doesn't work, it's uncanny how easily you can slip into it. It kills me how easily it can happen.

It's bizarre. There are some things that are so awful you just never ever do them, and then there are some things that are just a little off kilter, and you find yourself slipping into the habit without even realizing...then when you do

If it happens with parenting moments, I don't see how anything else we do is any different, yk? I vividly remember my mother encouraging me to borrow money from the credit union for a vacation once. It's the only time I ever did, and it was a very small amount of money in the grand scheme of things, but the idea of doing that now just makes me cringe. To borrow money for something so frivolous seems insane.
post #279 of 282
Will a mobile home loan company give you part of the loan for sewer and water setup? I have to set up the sewer and water on my land, and it will cost me about 4,000 dollars. Do most mobile home loan companies work with you on that? If not, where else can i get a loan for it?
post #280 of 282
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Originally Posted by amandaaz View Post
Will a mobile home loan company give you part of the loan for sewer and water setup? I have to set up the sewer and water on my land, and it will cost me about 4,000 dollars. Do most mobile home loan companies work with you on that? If not, where else can i get a loan for it?
Start a new thread with this question and you'll get more answers
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