Will there ever be a student loan bailout? - Page 3

[mar123]

It is possible to go to college, without a parent funding it, and come out without major debt. I had grants and loans and worked as an overflow secretary/ receptionist at a law firm. I also didn't go to a pricey university- I didn't go out all the time (I babysat one weekend night every weekend), I didn't take trips, etc. But I only pay 150 a month in student loans -that is for all undergrad for me and grad school for dh. I am a teacher and did have one loan completely written off b/c I taught special education and/or at a disadvantaged school for 5 years. It was not easy, but well worth it.

There is a lot of money out there for college. There are also many people who take out loans and live a great life off of them. I know people who bought cars with student loans, went on spring break every year, had a great apartment and are now in shock at what they owe. I think society does value education, but education should be valued by those seeking it as well. I know I value my education a lot more b/c I did it, no one else. I paid for every thing and I am really proud of that. I made sure I did what I needed to in order to get good grades b/c I was wating my own money if I didn't.

Quite a bit of the bailout money is going to help the people- unemployed, etc. Also, the car companies were given money so they would be able to keep people employed- so that is helping people as well.

That being said, I am completely opposed to all of these bailouts for a variety reasons I will not get into here.

[Tradd]

I heard about this young woman on a local radio station today (she was interviewed):

http://www.iwanttogotonotredame.com/

She wants to go to Notre Dame for college. Parents can't afford it. She said everything is about $46K a year. Mind you, she's not been accepted yet to Notre Dame. She has been accepted to Michigan (she lives in Michigan). Said she doesn't want to do loans on the radio interview.

I give per points for having the gumption to put this out there, but I don't agree with her thinking. Michigan is an EXCELLENT public university. Still expensive, but she's been accepted and not as expensive as ND. She wants to go into medicine - Michigan's good enough that it has it's own medical school, very highly regarded.

She's asking people to donate to her tuition fund. I think there's a sense of entitlement there that "I want to go to this expensive private school and other people are going to pay for it." If I have extra cash, it's going to my local food pantry, not for this young lady to go to a fancy private university, when she won't consider the public university.

[Tradd]

Originally Posted by Embo

While I agree we should all try to do a much better job managing our money in undergrad or grad school (not take out as many loans, not go to really expensive private schools, etc.) I think this discussion is disturbingly snarky about people who work in the social sciences and humanities. If your kids do choose to go to college, don't you want them to have an education that includes history, philosophy, and anthropology?

Anthropology teaches people about the diversity of our world, how to approach complex issues and problems, and how to write clearly. And who do you think does the research that backs up much of this community's claims about mothering? Um, anthropologists. (And psychologists, sociologists, and historians, of course). In the 1960s and 70s, feminist anthropologists turned their attention to gender and sexuality across the globe. And they realized that the Western way of raising babies is not the only one. I know not all of you root your parenting choices in this history, but the next time you discuss the research on co-sleeping or baby-wearing (and it usually draws on cross-cultural comparison), thank an anthropologist.

The central problem here is not the silly people who chose to work (or have a calling to work) in poor-paying fields, but a society and government that doesn't value education, teaching, or learning.

Embo
anthropologist & mama

My issue with this issue - the folks who rack up mega amounts of student loans in a low-paying field and then complain, "Woe is me, I've got all this student loan debt and I make so little. Help!" If they want to rack up all this debt to go into a low-paying field, I don't really care. But I don't want to hear the whining that they're so strapped from paying the student loans on a small salary.

You make a choice and then whine about it - makes my teeth itch.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by Tradd

My issue with this issue - the folks who rack up mega amounts of student loans in a low-paying field and then complain, "Woe is me, I've got all this student loan debt and I make so little. Help!" If they want to rack up all this debt to go into a low-paying field, I don't really care. But I don't want to hear the whining that they're so strapped from paying the student loans on a small salary.

You make a choice and then whine about it - makes my teeth itch.

On the one hand, I get what you're saying. It's imprudent to get into so much debt without really thinking it through.

On the other hand-- who is going to do these low-paying jobs that still require a college degree, except the people willing to go into debt? I think of social workers, for example. The world needs social workers. Social workers need a college degree. College degrees cost money. Social work doesn't pay all that well. It's like there's a missing part of the equation.

Also, I think it's good to remember that often it is 18-21 year old kids who are getting themselves into these loans. I know I didn't understand the repercussions of my financial decisions when I was fresh out of high school. I'm not saying it makes it right or wrong, but it is something to think about.

[Drummer's Wife]

I don't get taking out huge student loans when your projected income will be low. Doesn't everyone have to go through loan counseling that includes a calculator to figure out how much is "safe" to borrow based on your career choice?

I will be helping my children pay for college, helping them get grants, scholarships, etc., encouraging state or community college (it's $41 per credit here) and so on before even mentioning the loan idea. I know way too many adults who have racked up a ton of debt going to college, and then they either aren't working in that field or make very little.

I also do not agree that a degree beyond high school is necessary to make good money, my DH is a perfect example of that. I mean, I do want my kids to go to college (if that's what they want) but it's not a requirement to a successful life, by any means.

[Denvergirlie]

I sure hope their isn't a student loan bailout. Not that I don't understand the burden it can be on one's budget post college.

However, it will make me feel really stupid that I worked 2 jobs, scraped by on a very tight budget for several years in order to pay mine off early just this past year.

[lil_earthmomma]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

People underestimate how much money a student can earn while going to school. It isn't as much fun to go to work, rather than watch tv or go to parties, but it surely isn't impossible. If a student works 15-20 hours a week, and earns 7-10k a year, that will significantly offset the eventual loans.

:

My dh and I have just started college, and are in for 5 years, to become teachers. We are not going to take out student loans, and we have two small boys. We work!!! You get 4 months off each year, and our combined income during those four months pays our tuition, books, rent, groceries, car insurance and a tiny eeny bit of spending/present money. Basically, we work our a$$es off each summer to provide for the comming year. And we don't do anything extraordinary, we work for a fruit/veg company, and each work a stand. This type of job is available everywhere, whether it be painting houses, construction, picking produce or whatever. It is possible to go to school and live without massive debt. It just requires sacrifice and a little bit of planning imho.

(We practiced living like this for this whole year. We worked the summer, and got to spend an incredible year with our babies while doing some online courses. It helped us to build our frugal muscles, while knowing that if we screwed up, we could work. Now we're ready for college!!!

[sanguine_speed]

Originally Posted by annettemarie

On the one hand, I get what you're saying. It's imprudent to get into so much debt without really thinking it through.

On the other hand-- who is going to do these low-paying jobs that still require a college degree, except the people willing to go into debt? I think of social workers, for example. The world needs social workers. Social workers need a college degree. College degrees cost money. Social work doesn't pay all that well. It's like there's a missing part of the equation.

Also, I think it's good to remember that often it is 18-21 year old kids who are getting themselves into these loans. I know I didn't understand the repercussions of my financial decisions when I was fresh out of high school. I'm not saying it makes it right or wrong, but it is something to think about.

This is a good point. I am a professional social worker. Where I live, it is against the law to use the title "social worker" without holding a degree from an accredited university and registering with a professional college. An undergraduate degree in social work is a 4-year full-time degree, and for one year of that at my school I had to do field placements where not only was I not paid, I had to pay several thousand in tuition (in addition to the tuition for coursework). In that scenario, it's a low-paying field, and my ability to work through school was severely hampered by the requirements of my degree. I also had kids and could not do the work all day at school placement then work at night at the bar that seems to be done sometimes by students without dependents. I did do what I could and for two years worked 20 hours a week on campus, and did other jobs during other years. But this meant cutting back on school a bit, and so it took longer and in the end I'm not sure how much better off I was financially for working while in school. I did it as much for the experience...

See, here, you can take 9 credits a year for the same price as 7. But that additional 2 credits costs an extra 6 hours a week plus out-of-class work and studying. On top of the other 7 credits.

[socialworkmamma]

It's good not to feel so alone. My DH went to a private law school because he was told by his student advisor just getting in is impressive enough to ensure a high paying job upon graduation. He worked his tail off, passed the bar the first time, and went on many interviews. Sadly, he graduated in the early 90s, the first time in recent years there was a glut of lawyers. He was hired as a public defender almost 3 months after passing the bar and over 6 months after graduation. He had no debt from his undergrad degree and had been told by everyone, this will not be hard to pay off in 5 years time. I don't mean to whine and groan, we are better off than many others, but seriously, when you are 21 and your trusted advisor tells you this is the way to go, you believe it. We have discussed this many times and feel being the first in our families to get higher education and graduate degrees also didn't help, as our parents were inimidated by the whole process and felt we were getting advice from the people who knew what they were doing.
We've been paying it back ever since and it is taken out automatically, yet towards the end of month I always get calls from the American Education Service. If they would friggin read the file, they wouldn't need to employ so many extra people to make worthless calls.
I also want to second it's so bogus people can go out and overspend on everthing else in life and eventually get forgiven if they gamble wrong about being able to pay for it. And I do agree looking back now it was a gamble and even at our ages we should have been able to process it's not a done deal and do we really want to make huge payments forever.
DH is still a public defender and will finally have some forgiveness in 10 years. Just in time to help our kids not go into debt for school. I also agree with the posters that education is not the be all end all. I do home studies for families adopting and my two wealthiest clients both have wage earners with only high school diplomas, yet net worths in the millions. We plan to tell our children if they know their calling is something that requires a degree, great, we'll help. If not, that's great too.
Pamela

[mar123]

Wanted to add-
In defense of those states like CA that are not wanting to take the stimulus money for extra unemployment etc; when the stimulus money runs out in 2-3 years, the states will then be responsible for continuing the funding of these programs(part of taking the money is the agreement that you will keep these programs; can't be temporary). This is supposed to be done through taxes on businesses. For states with budget problems and states trying to lure new businesses, this is not a good plan. That is why there is a debate in many states on what money to accept, etc. I know my state is not taking it all. Some states, like Michigan, are happy to accept more. I wonder how higher taxes on businesses later will help their unemployment rate.

[Leta]

Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife

I don't get taking out huge student loans when your projected income will be low. Doesn't everyone have to go through loan counseling that includes a calculator to figure out how much is "safe" to borrow based on your career choice?

In a word, no. If some schools are starting to do this, that's great, but it's never happened for me.

[Leta]

Originally Posted by Embo

While I agree we should all try to do a much better job managing our money in undergrad or grad school (not take out as many loans, not go to really expensive private schools, etc.) I think this discussion is disturbingly snarky about people who work in the social sciences and humanities. If your kids do choose to go to college, don't you want them to have an education that includes history, philosophy, and anthropology?

Anthropology teaches people about the diversity of our world, how to approach complex issues and problems, and how to write clearly. And who do you think does the research that backs up much of this community's claims about mothering? Um, anthropologists. (And psychologists, sociologists, and historians, of course). In the 1960s and 70s, feminist anthropologists turned their attention to gender and sexuality across the globe. And they realized that the Western way of raising babies is not the only one. I know not all of you root your parenting choices in this history, but the next time you discuss the research on co-sleeping or baby-wearing (and it usually draws on cross-cultural comparison), thank an anthropologist.

The central problem here is not the silly people who chose to work (or have a calling to work) in poor-paying fields, but a society and government that doesn't value education, teaching, or learning.

Embo
anthropologist & mama

Sending you a big ol' internet kiss. Thanks for this.

[maryeliz]

[QUOTE=Drummer's Wife;13417176]I don't get taking out huge student loans when your projected income will be low. Doesn't everyone have to go through loan counseling that includes a calculator to figure out how much is "safe" to borrow based on your career choice?
QUOTE]

Unfortunately this does not happen at many schools, in fact when I realized how much debt I was racking up a few years into my Ph.D., I asked our student loan office if they could point me toward a legitimate debt counseling service and they said no.

Before grad school my only debt was a small student loan. I always paid my credit card at the end of the month, and just had no concept of taking on debt. However, in grad school the easy money was just so seductive. I worked part time in grad school and lived modestly, but my program was very demanding and there was a point where I just couldn't work a lot and still be awake and focused enough to keep up with my cohort (many of whom had family money). Now, looking back, I can calculate where I would be if I had made a little more and wasted a little less, but it's too late.

Additionally, I think a big part of the problem is that you decide what to do when you are twenty or so and then you pay when you are forty. I've never had much money and never cared that much, so when I started school I didn't really care about being poor, and I didn't really get the money equals stability connection.

I think liberal arts schools also really encourage students not to be practical. I was talking to a bunch of my college friends recently, and we all wish that we had come out of college with skills for a secondary (reasonably well-paid) career. Colleges spend a lot of time telling students what great careers they can have with a degree in literature, classics, etc., but then those students end up in grad school, because they don't actually feel qualified for any jobs, and then they end up with even more debt and even more limited employment options.

My student loan situation has definitely made me more compassionate towards people who took out crazy housing loans, and I'm just thankful I didn't get into that mess.

[bigeyes]

Plus, how many people go into fields thinking they know what they want to do with their life, then find out they're miserable?

Dh's previous wife went into debt to become a nurse, then hated nursing. I imagine it is the same for many people who go into debt getting a degree only to find out they've spent 4 years of their life thinking they had a clear career path when they had not yet worked in their chosen field.

I can't tell you often I've taken career aptitude tests only to be told I should be doing something I've already done and hated.

[Drummer's Wife]

Originally Posted by Leta

In a word, no. If some schools are starting to do this, that's great, but it's never happened for me.

ah, well that's good to know. It should be mandatory

[Katie Bugs Mama]

I'm shocked that anyone would go $100,000 or more into debt for a Ph.D in anthropology or anything else for that matter. When I was in grad school, it was understood that, if you were accepted into a Ph.D. program but not funded (ie, given full tuition plus a living stipend,) the department didn't really want you. You were kind of being let down easy so that either your feelings wouldn't be hurt or (more likely) the profs who wrote your recommendations wouldn't be insulted.

It's heartbreaking to me to think that someone who didn't understand this system (code?) would take an unfunded acceptance at face value and bury herself under a mountain of debt to be in a program where she wasn't particularly valued any way.

Of course, my experience was with a very rich, very expensive private university. I suppose that things might be a bit different elsewhere. I know that a lot of state universities require Ph.D. students to do massive amounts of research and/or teaching for their funding, but still no one expects them to flat-out borrow all of that money. Or so I thought.

[polyhymnia]

Originally Posted by Katie Bugs Mama

I'm shocked that anyone would go $100,000 or more into debt for a Ph.D in anthropology or anything else for that matter. When I was in grad school, it was understood that, if you were accepted into a Ph.D. program but not funded (ie, given full tuition plus a living stipend,) the department didn't really want you. You were kind of being let down easy so that either your feelings wouldn't be hurt or (more likely) the profs who wrote your recommendations wouldn't be insulted.

It's heartbreaking to me to think that someone who didn't understand this system (code?) would take an unfunded acceptance at face value and bury herself under a mountain of debt to be in a program where she wasn't particularly valued any way.

Of course, my experience was with a very rich, very expensive private university. I suppose that things might be a bit different elsewhere. I know that a lot of state universities require Ph.D. students to do massive amounts of research and/or teaching for their funding, but still no one expects them to flat-out borrow all of that money. Or so I thought.

It's my understanding that while that is true for sciences it's not necessarily true for humanities - maybe others can address that more accurately though (I was in sciences).

[whiddle]

I'd like to see some kind of relief. I simply cannot afford to STOP going to school because I can't have my loan payments come due. Between DH and I, we'd be broke. We both work in social services and have BA degrees from a state university. I worked during college. I always made at least 3 times the projected 7k per year. After paying rent and other necessary expenses, there wasn't enough left over to pay for tuition and books. I started college at 17. I didn't realize what the loans meant. All I knew is that I was working full time and killing myself going to school full time and was not enjoying ANYTHING. So, I got offered "free" money. I took it (and continued). Lo and behold, at 25, it's not free money and I simply can't pay it. Unfortunately, helping our poor get food stamps and medicaid doesn't deserve to earn a living wage especially when you consider that they REQUIRE a degree to get this job. I would have been much better off doing nothing with my time but begging for money- I'd be in a better situation now.

[annettemarie]

Originally Posted by sanguine_speed

An undergraduate degree in social work is a 4-year full-time degree, and for one year of that at my school I had to do field placements where not only was I not paid, I had to pay several thousand in tuition (in addition to the tuition for coursework). In that scenario, it's a low-paying field, and my ability to work through school was severely hampered by the requirements of my degree. I

That's a good point as well-- I worked through college, but as a music education major, I had tons of requirements (field studies, ensemble rehearsals, senior recital practice, student teaching, etc) that made working while in school very difficult and, in some semesters, impossible.

[Dar]

Originally Posted by Katie Bugs Mama

I'm shocked that anyone would go $100,000 or more into debt for a Ph.D in anthropology or anything else for that matter. When I was in grad school, it was understood that, if you were accepted into a Ph.D. program but not funded (ie, given full tuition plus a living stipend,) the department didn't really want you. You were kind of being let down easy so that either your feelings wouldn't be hurt or (more likely) the profs who wrote your recommendations wouldn't be insulted.

Where I'm in grad school now (rich private university) everyone who is accepted gets full tuition plus stipend. Where I was before (big state school), it varied, and none of the RA or TA positions paid enough to actually live on (like, under $10K a year).

People at my current university are fine - some of us have modest debt, but nothing major. Pretty much everyone at my old university is in serious trouble.

Dar