Will there ever be a student loan bailout? - Page 4

[Katzchen]

Originally Posted by sanguine_speed

This is a good point. I am a professional social worker. Where I live, it is against the law to use the title "social worker" without holding a degree from an accredited university and registering with a professional college. An undergraduate degree in social work is a 4-year full-time degree, and for one year of that at my school I had to do field placements where not only was I not paid, I had to pay several thousand in tuition (in addition to the tuition for coursework). In that scenario, it's a low-paying field, and my ability to work through school was severely hampered by the requirements of my degree. I also had kids and could not do the work all day at school placement then work at night at the bar that seems to be done sometimes by students without dependents. I did do what I could and for two years worked 20 hours a week on campus, and did other jobs during other years. But this meant cutting back on school a bit, and so it took longer and in the end I'm not sure how much better off I was financially for working while in school. I did it as much for the experience...

:

I'm currently working on my my Master of Social Work (which is basically the minimum requirement for social workers in health and mental health due to state and federal reimbursement regs.) The full time students in my program take 4-5 classes a quarter AND have practicum 16-24 hours a week. Working is not really possible. In state tuition is just over $18,500 for the (6 quarter) program.

Lots of students make the same mistake I did and enroll part time so that they can only take 1-2 classes while doing the 16-24 hr a week practicum and work part or full time, but in the end it doesn't really save you money since you pay tuition by the credit hour rather than by the quarter. In the end the program will cost me $28,000 over 14 quarters for tuition alone.

And all of that for a job that in this area pays only an average of $32,000 a year : I'd love it if social work paid more, or school cost less but honestly I think it is a bit silly to ignore my desire to be a social worker and the need for young social workers to replace those who are retiring all because I don't have a rich somebody to pay my way through a very demanding and time intensive program. If every one who wanted to be a social worker/teacher (or insert any low paying job that requires a high level of education here) did so we wouldn't have very many people working in those fields at all.

[shayinme]

Originally Posted by Leta

Belleweather, you are absolutely right. (While we're at it, let's suggest a reformed Farm Bill, shall we?) I mean, this is so reasonable- 120 on time payments and then forgiveness. This solves the public service problem.

And, come on, you can rack up five figures of debt on cars and shoes and electronics and file for bankruptcy and be forgiven... but you can't make a mistake in your late teens and end up with a degree that doesn't pay well without being stuck? That doesn't exactly seem fair, now does it?

Not only that, here's some more fun math. In the 70's, minimum wage was $2 something an hour. Our local university cost $22 per credit hour. (I am not making this up.) Now, in MI, minimum wage is $7.45 an hour, and the U costs $277 per credit hour. Just credit hours, not fees, books, transportation, anything else.

In the 70's, you could work all summer, full time, at minimum wage, and if you lived with your parents and saved every penny, you'd have about $1300 before taxes- enough to pay for FOUR semesters worth of tution (assuming 15 ch per semester). If you worked full every summer and lived frugally, you could conceivably work part time during school and pay for everything out of pocket. Even after taxes, you'd have enough from your summer earnings to pay for both your semesters of college that year ($660), as well as your fees (prob. only another $50-$100, as they are about $200 per year now), and your books. Shoot, you could do that and still put gas in your car all summer long. You wouldn't need financial aid, and while this is assuming very helpful and supportive parents, they wouldn't have to pay your tuition.

Now, if you worked FT all summer and saved everything, you'd have about $4800 before taxes- enough to pay for ONE semester of school. You might have enough left over to pay for that semester's worth of books, too. So not only could you not keep gas in your car, you are still going to into debt to pay half your tuition alone, not to mention other expenses and needing to live.

In other words, as a practical matter, it's four times as hard to work your way through school now.

Excellent points. My eldest is a year away from college and mathematically even with the plan of him working summers there is no way an $8-9 an hour gig is going to pay much of anything substantial as far as tuition. Even the community colleges in my state are high and honestly so many folks are going to them these days its not so easy to just go and knock out the pre-reqs as folks think. ESpecially in rural states like I live in where everyone has this idea but the funding is reduced.

Originally Posted by annettemarie

On the one hand, I get what you're saying. It's imprudent to get into so much debt without really thinking it through.

On the other hand-- who is going to do these low-paying jobs that still require a college degree, except the people willing to go into debt? I think of social workers, for example. The world needs social workers. Social workers need a college degree. College degrees cost money. Social work doesn't pay all that well. It's like there's a missing part of the equation.

Also, I think it's good to remember that often it is 18-21 year old kids who are getting themselves into these loans. I know I didn't understand the repercussions of my financial decisions when I was fresh out of high school. I'm not saying it makes it right or wrong, but it is something to think about.

ITA w/you. I am the director of a small non-profit that serves at risk kids. Considering I have a graduate degree I make peanuts, I am almost certain the manager at the local McD's makes more than I do, yet what I do serves greater society. Yes, considering I have a masters in non-profit management, I could be doing something a tad more profitable but if we all chased the bucks where would that leave us a society?

Originally Posted by Embo

While I agree we should all try to do a much better job managing our money in undergrad or grad school (not take out as many loans, not go to really expensive private schools, etc.) I think this discussion is disturbingly snarky about people who work in the social sciences and humanities. If your kids do choose to go to college, don't you want them to have an education that includes history, philosophy, and anthropology?

Anthropology teaches people about the diversity of our world, how to approach complex issues and problems, and how to write clearly. And who do you think does the research that backs up much of this community's claims about mothering? Um, anthropologists. (And psychologists, sociologists, and historians, of course). In the 1960s and 70s, feminist anthropologists turned their attention to gender and sexuality across the globe. And they realized that the Western way of raising babies is not the only one. I know not all of you root your parenting choices in this history, but the next time you discuss the research on co-sleeping or baby-wearing (and it usually draws on cross-cultural comparison), thank an anthropologist.

The central problem here is not the silly people who chose to work (or have a calling to work) in poor-paying fields, but a society and government that doesn't value education, teaching, or learning.

Embo
anthropologist & mama

So true. My dh is a journalist by trade has both his undergraduate and grad degrees in journalism and he has seen his own field go downhill. We only have to look at how local newspapers are going bye-bye. Seems we live in society that does not value a lot of good professions just because they are not money makers.

Shay

[Katie Bugs Mama]

Originally Posted by polyhymnia

It's my understanding that while that is true for sciences it's not necessarily true for humanities - maybe others can address that more accurately though (I was in sciences).

I was in social sciences, and everyone that I knew well enough to know about their finances got at least full tuition and a modest stipend. It was enough to live on if you were careful and maybe worked a bit. I got through with under $10,000 in loans for grad school.

I really had no idea that people went deeply in to debt for academically-oriented Ph.D.'s. Maybe an MBA, JD, or MD, but certainly not a Ph.D. in social sciences or humanities.

[oneKnight]

Originally Posted by Leta

Now, if you worked FT all summer and saved everything, you'd have about $4800 before taxes- enough to pay for ONE semester of school. You might have enough left over to pay for that semester's worth of books, too. So not only could you not keep gas in your car, you are still going to into debt to pay half your tuition alone, not to mention other expenses and needing to live.

In other words, as a practical matter, it's four times as hard to work your way through school now.

This is exactly how I found it to be true. I managed to save almost $5k every summer for the next two semesters. ONE semester of state university (nothing private or fancy) cost me $4800 easy, before books, other fees and living expenses. I always had to take out a loan for the spring semester.
I quit when I no longer wanted to take out another loan. It sucks.

I'm considering going back to school for a 2 year degree and this is what's holding me back. I can barely afford the bills now, there's no way I could attempt to finish school without taking out MORE student loans.
I cry about this.

[Katie Bugs Mama]

Originally Posted by Dar

Where I'm in grad school now (rich private university) everyone who is accepted gets full tuition plus stipend. Where I was before (big state school), it varied, and none of the RA or TA positions paid enough to actually live on (like, under $10K a year).

People at my current university are fine - some of us have modest debt, but nothing major. Pretty much everyone at my old university is in serious trouble.

Dar

Wow. I really had no idea that it was that bad.

Still, I don't understand why someone would go $100,000 into debt for a doctorate in anthropology. (I'm just using your example, not meaning to pick on anthropologists.) It doesn't take a math whiz or a nobel prize-winning economist to figure out that that doesn't make much sense financially.

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by Dar

Where I'm in grad school now (rich private university) everyone who is accepted gets full tuition plus stipend. Where I was before (big state school), it varied, and none of the RA or TA positions paid enough to actually live on (like, under $10K a year).

People at my current university are fine - some of us have modest debt, but nothing major. Pretty much everyone at my old university is in serious trouble.

Dar

My sister is finishing up a geo-chem program in a moderately sized state school. She is funded and has a livable stipend.

But I believe there is a big difference between hard science programs and other programs. Are social science programs ever funded?

[griffin2004]

Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife

I don't get taking out huge student loans when your projected income will be low. Doesn't everyone have to go through loan counseling that includes a calculator to figure out how much is "safe" to borrow based on your career choice?

I've never heard of that, although it's been a long time since I was in school. That type of counseling should be mandatory, but isn't it mainly the parents' responsibility to financially educate their freshman-to-be before sending her off to sign her life away to indentured servitude?

[Dar]

Originally Posted by sunnmama

My sister is finishing up a geo-chem program in a moderately sized state school. She is funded and has a livable stipend.

But I believe there is a big difference between hard science programs and other programs. Are social science programs ever funded?

Yeah, the people in hard sciences were definitely better funded at big state university.

But yes, social sciences programs are sometimes funded... that's one of the reasons I left big state university for smaller private university. I'm very generously funded now...

Dar

[llamalluv]

Borrowing money for school is a choice.

I chose to borrow money to pay for classes to get my Associate's, but I borrowed the bare minimum ($3000 per semester), and I chose to make interest payments on my non-subsidized loans. I could have borrowed twice as much as I did, and I could have not made any payments while I was in school. The loans are at the bottom of our debt snowball because the interest rates are so low and the amounts are so small, and we will be done with them by the end of the year. The Associates has helped me get jobs I might not have.

My husband worked before he was in college, and while he was in college, and worked two jobs when he wasn't in classes. He chose to not borrow money and he had no student loan debt when he graduated. He paid for his schooling as he took the classes.

His sister has a Master's degree and has no student loan debt 4 years out of college. She, too, worked in high school, worked while she was in college, and worked multiple jobs while on breaks. As soon as she had a job in her field, she began tackling the small amount of student loan debt she graduated with, instead of paying it off on their 15 year repayment program, and then began saving that money for her down payment. She will begin shopping for a house for herself later this year. She's not even 30 yet, and she's well ahead of most 40 year olds financially.

It's all a choice. Anthropology would be a cool major, but if you have to go $100K in debt to finance it, it's probably better to leave that type of interest to a hobby.

[claddaghmom]

I'll get in line with my hand out.

Just found out that the ILs way of "we'll pay for your school, dear teen son" was to put it all on student loans in his name.

So I thought I was marrying a debtless man and now found out he has more than 15k in student loans.



:

Actually, I'm scratching my head and DH is too. Basically, his parents said that if he did what they wanted, they would pay for his undergrad school. He took two years before giving up on that idea, lol. But he had no idea that by "paying for school" they meant put it all on loans for him without his knowledge.

Can you even do that? I'm assuming DH just signed the papers as a teen w/o questioning it.

I am flying the white flag of surrender!

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

Can you even do that? I'm assuming DH just signed the papers as a teen w/o questioning it.

I would be shocked if that is possible, and think he likely signed without questioning. I'd be interested in hearing if it is possible, though!

The 15k would be a jarring shock if you weren't expecting it, but it is a very manageable college loan in the long run. Dh, a teacher, had a similar amt of debt, and was able to make the payments easily. The dishonesty is another story, of course....

[sunnmama]

Originally Posted by Dar

But yes, social sciences programs are sometimes funded... that's one of the reasons I left big state university for smaller private university. I'm very generously funded now...

Dar

That is good to know! (even though I don't think I am ever going back to school....but never say never!)

[notkept]

Originally Posted by oneKnight

This is exactly how I found it to be true. I managed to save almost $5k every summer for the next two semesters. ONE semester of state university (nothing private or fancy) cost me $4800 easy, before books, other fees and living expenses. I always had to take out a loan for the spring semester.
I quit when I no longer wanted to take out another loan. It sucks.

I'm considering going back to school for a 2 year degree and this is what's holding me back. I can barely afford the bills now, there's no way I could attempt to finish school without taking out MORE student loans.
I cry about this.

Fill out that FAFSA and see what happens. In a household of three with @ 36k in income, I get cash back from my PELL and MAP grants. Those grants will cover CC costs and that is where you get your two year degrees. I'm going for nursing and it actually takes more like four years. lol

[Pinoikoi]

Actually I think that my ability to write off the interest on my student loans annually is a huge gift.

[Pinoikoi]

Originally Posted by Katzchen

And all of that for a job that in this area pays only an average of $32,000 a year : I'd love it if social work paid more, or school cost less but honestly I think it is a bit silly to ignore my desire to be a social worker and the need for young social workers to replace those who are retiring all because I don't have a rich somebody to pay my way through a very demanding and time intensive program. If every one who wanted to be a social worker/teacher (or insert any low paying job that requires a high level of education here) did so we wouldn't have very many people working in those fields at all.

I am a teacher. I have a good friend with a master's in social work.. she makes WAY more than me and her employer is paying back her loans for her.. she got a sweet deal.. She probably makes twice your figure stated above..

[Drummer's Wife]

Originally Posted by griffin2004

I've never heard of that, although it's been a long time since I was in school. That type of counseling should be mandatory, but isn't it mainly the parents' responsibility to financially educate their freshman-to-be before sending her off to sign her life away to indentured servitude?

Maybe it's standard nowadays?

Before receiving a student loan, borrowers must complete an entrance counseling session. This quick and easy interactive counseling session provides useful tips and tools to help you develop a budget for managing your educational expenses and helps you to understand your loan responsibilities.

https://www.dl.ed.gov/borrower/CounselingSessions.do

[claddaghmom]

Originally Posted by Drummer's Wife

Maybe it's standard nowadays?



https://www.dl.ed.gov/borrower/CounselingSessions.do

Lol none of my schools actually did that. They just have you check the box where it says, "I received my interview" or however they word it.

[oneKnight]

Originally Posted by notkept

Fill out that FAFSA and see what happens. In a household of three with @ 36k in income, I get cash back from my PELL and MAP grants. Those grants will cover CC costs and that is where you get your two year degrees. I'm going for nursing and it actually takes more like four years. lol

All they would give me was "subsidized" student loans instead or regular ones. Big whoop, it's still a effin loan.

Also they look at LAST years tax info, when DH and I both worked full time. and now I'm unemployed (and I would have to cut my hours to go to school anyway) so it's not like they look at your ACTUAL current income.

[mpchez]

Originally Posted by oneKnight

Also they look at LAST years tax info, when DH and I both worked full time. and now I'm unemployed (and I would have to cut my hours to go to school anyway) so it's not like they look at your ACTUAL current income.

IIRC which i might not be- filled out DD's Fafsa recently- you can include extra info if there are "special circumstances" with your current income - unemployment etc -vs the previous year


ETA or not (sorry)

If you (and your family) have unusual circumstances that might affect your financial situation, complete and submit the FAFSA and then notify the school's financial aid office. In some cases, the school's financial aid office may decide to take these unusual circumstances into account and adjust your cost of attendance or the information used to calculate your Expected Family Contribution (EFC). Provide the financial aid office with adequate documentation to support any special circumstances.

Possible examples of unusual circumstances include:

Tuition expenses at an elementary or secondary school.
Unusual medical or dental expenses not covered by insurance.
A family member who recently became unemployed.
Changes in income or assets that may affect your eligibility for financial aid.

[llamalluv]

Originally Posted by claddaghmom

Lol none of my schools actually did that. They just have you check the box where it says, "I received my interview" or however they word it.

I had to do it for each disbursement of my loans; so, I did it three times.