Unconditional Parenting - Chapter 1 (Conditional Parenting) - Page 2

[Super Glue Mommy]

I plan to post for chapter 2 tonight or tomorrow at the latest... I feel things REALLY start to pick up around chapter 3 (for me)

[doublyblessed]

Originally Posted by mumkimum

I was grateful to hear what Kohn had to sayabout how so many parenting actions assume that kids "will take advantage of us". I hear other people talking (to me too) about how "you have to be careful you don't just give in to everything your kid wants" and am real appreciative to see someone talking about taking the time to recognize that behavior is driven by underlying needs.


.

oh i hear/heard this so frequently! even in most preschools/daycares and even schools (even waldorf/waldorfy ones...). and my ex did this...it drove me batty and i felt so enraged w/ him and his family...grrr! : again, WHY he is my EX. thankfully i didn't marry his sorry buttocks. he used to say that if i give my dd 'things' so much she'd grow up expectig this or some hogwash. she had a lot of toys/dress up stuff from when i had a childcare biz in my home...she has never been 'spoiled'...she has known she's loved and i think that is awesome. the ex and his family always tried (and still do) shaming me... ie. dd was 'naughty' (not ME) for running around OUR house naked...and for even THINKING of touching her vagina...WHAT ever!!! and they mocked me/made fun of me loving her, being sweet and kind to her...i'd say 'she is just 3...' then when she was 4 i'd say 'she's just 4...' and that was the running joke for them...whatever. oh once my dd hid my ex's sister's lug nuts in the grass near our patio when the ex was working on his sis' car and she was SO UTTERLY ANNOYED w/ my dd...it was obvious. she did NOT have anywhere to be anytime soon.............she was just annoyed to be annoyed w/ her behavior. "naughty"...i said to my dd in earshot of my ex and his sis, "you don't want S to leave, do you?" and she said yes, that is why she hid the lug nuts...after all, S couldn't leave until we found all 4 of them...which we did at last... children surely do NOT know how to express their emotions all the time thru words...nor do adults for that matter. so they get punished by angry adults and withheld love...

i have a question, though...this is related to rewards/punishments...i have a reward board that i just put away. my dd saw it this morning and wanted me to put it back up. i did but i made sure to tell her that i have changed the way i treat her and that she is ALWAYS loved by me NO MATTER WHAT. no matter WHAT she DOES or DOESN"T do. i will talk more about how i would like her to :be: towards me/others but i think the most important is HOW she feels about me and my love being unconditional...she will then MODEL it, like kohn says...and will probably be less and less 'rude' or 'spiteful' or 'resistant' to helping out, taking responsibility for her toys/clothes, etc. yeah. totally agree with that one.

and she is totally a mirror for how *I* react and "behave" and how loved she feels...and like i said, whether she feels it is conditional or unconditional. loving re-reading this book. again, thanks supergluemommy for starting this up! : i'm already noticing a HUGE difference in my relationship w/ my daughter and her self esteem as well. woo! this morning she said in her mae west slang she does sometimes (which is SO DARN CUTE!!!) and i can't recall what it was (DARN!) but it reflected that she was feeling confident and good about herself. (i sure wish i could remember what it was about and what she said...doh! mamabrain strikes again! )

sooo...what to do about this 'reward board' i thought was a good idea about a month ago? the goals on there were to mind me and my mother, to put away her toys, speak instead of 'shriek' (aka yell), be nice, no hitting (or biting, scratching, kicking...), etc. you get the jist of it............so what my mom was thinking is it can be viewed as just a GOAL...is it still ok to reward her for our appreciation or is that still a reward??? or maybe, i was thinking she could reward herself (w/in a certain budget) when she reaches each goal? thing is, the board goes by days M, T, W...hmmm. your input/ideas would be appreciated. i really want to treat her in a UPing way... : is it ok to reward OURSELVES when we reach goals? hmmm. or maybe we can just have the 'reward' or OUTCOME, rather, of simply feeling good about ourselves that we reached a goal.................instead of focusing on acquiring THINGS...or the "get to spend time alone with mommy" crap you see as a reward for good behavior in so many parenting books. yuck. no thank you! poor kids..................

[Materfamilias]

It's SO tough to identify, let alone stop, all those things we do because of how we were raised or because society has conditioned us to do them. I have a 6 y.o. son who has suffered from that. I'm moving to GD now and it is very hard to change all those ingrained behaviors of my own, let alone all the destructive patterns he and I have engaged in.

For me, the whole idea of focusing on the child and his/her needs rather than on the behavior is pretty radical but now makes perfect sense: "It's the child who engages in a behavior, not just the behavior itself, that matters" (15).

So, I am now trying to look into what is beneath the behavior and work on ways to deal with my ds at that level. I do feel I need more practical help than Kohn gives in this book, which is more philosophical. But the philosophy drives the practice, so it's good for me to have read this book!

[jwoodbri]

Originally Posted by Materfamilias

I do feel I need more practical help than Kohn gives in this book, which is more philosophical. But the philosophy drives the practice, so it's good for me to have read this book!

I think this is why I originally stopped reading this book because I needed some practical advise quick! But I still struggle with UC. I get tired and frustrated and it all goes out the window. It's hard for me to find the right thing to do in a situation so I revert back to things I don't want to do. I'm hoping that by actually finishing the book and getting to discuss it : it will really help bring the philosophy home so that I can implement it with greater success.

The first chapter is challenging for me because I agree with what he says completely but at the same time there is a part of me that is so entrenched in conditional thinking from years of being educated as a teacher it's hard to let go of it. (Although I see all the flaws of it not being effective at the same time.) YKWIM?? Anyway it's time for me to stop typing and start reading!

[mommabear207]

jwoodbri- would you mind elaborating on the "conditional thinking from years of being educated as a teacher"? my DH is having some issues with kohn because he is currently finishing up his education to be a certified teacher. i know behaviorism has been stressed in his phych classes. is this the same as what you have been taught? and how have you been able to let go and do you feel you still have to be conditionally minded in the classroom? thanks!

[jwoodbri]

mommabear207- I have a BS in early childhood ed and an MS in elementary ed and I think pretty much all along the way what we are taught and observe is conditional "parenting/teaching." For little ones (and sometimes older ones too)... time outs and reward systems (stickers, certificates, extra privileges and grades.) I think it is very hard to come away from all that. I know and understand what Kohn is saying and really do agree with it but there is always something nagging in the back of my head along the lines of if I let him get away with that it will only get worse. If I'm tired especially I have trouble fighting off that voice. So I am still struggling to do what I know is right, UP/GD. But that's why I am here!

I am a SAHM now so I don't have to worry about the teaching aspect at the moment but yes I'm sure I would struggle there too. I had someone recommend Parent Effectiveness Training for some more concrete examples in GD and he also has a book called Teacher Effectiveness Training which I would definitely read before returning to work. (The titles almost turned me off from the book but I really liked it.) Perhaps your husband would be interested in checking out the book?

I'm not sure that exactly answers your questions so feel free to ask others.

[foodmachine]

I'm a teacher too! - (spec ed- so much focus on behavior!) I soooo understand what jwoodbri is saying. Getting away from "Good job!" is my biggie in the house. Now I describe what DD is doing instead and ask a question about it. For ex: You are eating with a spoon. Is that fun?

I'm not in the classroom right now but plan to bring everything I'm learning back with me and revolutionize the schools! :
I am sooo scared to send DD to school. Luckily I have a few years to figure it out.

[Super Glue Mommy]

doublyblessed: what if instead of a rewards board you did a personal growth board, and let your child decide what her goals are, and the "prize" will be reaching those goals?

[Materfamilias]

Haha! I'm a teacher too, also taking a couple years off to raise my babe. I did not go through the traditional route, though, so I missed all those education courses

[foodmachine]

Originally Posted by Materfamilias

Haha! I'm a teacher too, also taking a couple years off to raise my babe. I did not go through the traditional route, though, so I missed all those education courses

Lucky you!
My DH also has a bunch of credit of credits in education (in Sweden) and when I told him about how all that Skinner stuff really hit home he was like, "but Skinner is the bad example not the rule". Good to know not all teachers all indoctrined!

[Materfamilias]

Well, I missed that in education courses but got it in spades in my psych courses. I still remember reading about how Skinner used his kid in his modification experiments *shudder*
I think Skinner is so black/white that he's easy to use -- people think results will come quick, so he's tailor-made for the education people. But I digress....

[doublyblessed]

Originally Posted by Materfamilias

It's SO tough to identify, let alone stop, all those things we do because of how we were raised or because society has conditioned us to do them. I have a 6 y.o. son who has suffered from that. I'm moving to GD now and it is very hard to change all those ingrained behaviors of my own, let alone all the destructive patterns he and I have engaged in.

I do feel I need more practical help than Kohn gives in this book, which is more philosophical. But the philosophy drives the practice, so it's good for me to have read this book!

my heart breaks for all the crud my dd (also 6) has had to endure from so many of our conditional interactions...i blame myself though, for that. now i'm working on undoing this vicious cycle & let her know i love her ALL THE TIME and i have asking her if she feels it and knows it. i actually pulled the car over yesterday, and she said mama, why did you pull over? i just said come here...she said no, mama...i kept saying, please...come here...i want to just hold you, babe...finally she did and i just simply HELD HER. she was looking around out the window at a dog and so forth...i wanted her to be in the present/now SO BADLY...she couldn't quite take it all in at that moment but i'm working on it. gotta undo this push-pull thing we've been in for over 16 mos. now. its just awful and breaks my heart. i have such great remorse and sorrow!!!

did you know there is a UP dvd??? i'd love to see that. would be great to visually see/hear alfie speak. not sure if there are exampled played out on there or if its just him sitting there reading from the UP book...do any of you have this dvd? my friend said it made him cry because he knew he could do better...

[doublyblessed]

Originally Posted by Materfamilias

Well, I missed that in education courses but got it in spades in my psych courses. I still remember reading about how Skinner used his kid in his modification experiments *shudder*
I think Skinner is so black/white that he's easy to use -- people think results will come quick, so he's tailor-made for the education people. But I digress....

YIKES! that is so frightening...wonder how the kid is today...how old would he be? i wonder how he feels about himself and his father...and if he has children how he has treated them...and so forth...wow.

[doublyblessed]

Originally Posted by Super Glue Mommy

doublyblessed: what if instead of a rewards board you did a personal growth board, and let your child decide what her goals are, and the "prize" will be reaching those goals?

i love it. maybe i'll make one for me too! thank you SO MUCH.

[AngelBee]

:

[Megs Mom]

My copy is on the way!

Originally Posted by DelawareMom

Hi! Thanks for starting this thread. I love this book.
My DD is only 14 months, so we aren't yet really at a place where we are facing any kind of "discipline" issues, but I feel fortunate to be moving forward with a mindset that Mr. Kohn's book has helped me to achieve.
I think this first chapter has been so helpful in the way I think when relating to ALL people, child or not. It is a profound notion that the message we intend to deliver is not nearly so important as the message that's perceived. I find myself, much more often, now, really trying to see things from my daughter's or husband's perspective.
I really look forward to hearing what others think. I've yet to meet anyone IRL who has even heard of this book.
Leigh Ann

Appreciate your comments about relating to all people - I hope to get some perspective on the crappy ways I treat my poor husband.

Originally Posted by jwoodbri

mommabear207- I have a BS in early childhood ed and an MS in elementary ed and I think pretty much all along the way what we are taught and observe is conditional "parenting/teaching." For little ones (and sometimes older ones too)... time outs and reward systems (stickers, certificates, extra privileges and grades.) I think it is very hard to come away from all that. I know and understand what Kohn is saying and really do agree with it but there is always something nagging in the back of my head along the lines of if I let him get away with that it will only get worse. If I'm tired especially I have trouble fighting off that voice. So I am still struggling to do what I know is right, UP/GD. But that's why I am here!

I am a SAHM now so I don't have to worry about the teaching aspect at the moment but yes I'm sure I would struggle there too. I had someone recommend Parent Effectiveness Training for some more concrete examples in GD and he also has a book called Teacher Effectiveness Training which I would definitely read before returning to work. (The titles almost turned me off from the book but I really liked it.) Perhaps your husband would be interested in checking out the book?

I'm not sure that exactly answers your questions so feel free to ask others.

Parent Effectiveness Training is, I believe, the program Faber and Mazlish came out of...I think...or maybe it's another famous GD author(s) but I'm pretty sure it's them.

Originally Posted by Materfamilias

Haha! I'm a teacher too, also taking a couple years off to raise my babe. I did not go through the traditional route, though, so I missed all those education courses

Another former teacher here. You didn't miss much. :P

[foodmachine]

Originally Posted by Megs Mom

Appreciate your comments about relating to all people - I hope to get some perspective on the crappy ways I treat my poor husband.

Hi and welcome! I know you are just getting getting starting on this thread, but as far getting perspective on how we treat our poor husbands ,
I am finding the book (and bookclub thread) "Raising our children, raising ourselves" by Naomi Aldort to be really great for me (and thereby for "poor" DH too).

[Megs Mom]

Thanks, fm. I actually had seen enough references to that book that I went ahead an ordered it along with UP!