Talk to me about delayed reading instruction - Page 3

[jessicaSAR]

Originally Posted by sapphire_chan

I don't understand how anyone can enjoy reading if they have to fight through sounding out every little word.

This is true, but it is reflective of a fluency issue. Fluency is not just about whether you "know" by sight enough words. Rather it is often reflective of the speed with which the brain is processing information. Children who process information at a slower speed (and I am in no means suggesting that processing speed should be equated with intelligence, as has so often been the case) have a hard time gaining fluency. In order to read well your eyes literally have to be ahead of your brain (well that's a sort of crude way to put it, but you need to be looking ahead of the word whose meaning you are on so that you already have the next few words ready to go). These children need exercises that work specifically on gaining fluency. It is great that you were able to bring pleasure books to school in second grade. I have a great deal of sympathy for children who love books, but have to struggle with fluency so much that they don't get to do what you did. I see little reason for asking these children to wait to enjoy the pleasures of reading until they are older when we know there are things that can be done to help them gain fluency.

I guess on some level I see this as an equity issue. The people who have no problem reading often don't seem to see how assuming that all students should be able to do what they do means that you deprive many children of years of reading pleasure, vocabulary development, comprehension etc.

[jessicaSAR]

Originally Posted by Lillian J

But wait... Even though they're not at all the same thing, there can end up being some overlap - in that by not starting all that so early, people have a chance to observe and see ways in which a lot of learning happens naturally and through experience, and they begin to move in that direction.

There would be children like I was (and my son, who never had any interest whatsoever in letters or reading till later he had something he wanted to read) who would just spend the early years in imaginative play, which is invaluable in its own rite, but there are others who would begin to take a look at reading and begin to learn naturally in their own unique ways. And that's not to discount the value of phonics at all - it's just that some children to seem to pick up reading in other ways.

And I totally understand your frustration! There have been any number of occasions when someone has asked online about how to teach a 3 year old to read, and I've commented that it's awfully young - only to have my hand slapped by people telling me the person hadn't asked about "unschooling" . It's not about "unschooling" - it's about honoring developmental readiness! But maybe it's just that many of us who are most concerned about that happen to also be people who are proponents of more natural learning. And maybe part of the overlap has to do with our also feeling it's not natural to try to teach things to children prematurely. There's a lot of complexity involved, and a new homeschooler coming to one of these forums to ask how to teach a young child to read has to sort out a lot of "stuff." Lillian

Good points!!

When we don't start too early we do get to see the learning process differently. That's why I think there are lots of unschoolers who would make fabulous subjects for a research study.

But, I agree, it is hard when you are first starting out to sort through all this. Perhaps the only real consolation is that the schools are doing a dismal job or sorting through it all, so we can hardly do worse.

[Lillian J]

Originally Posted by jessicaSAR

When we don't start too early we do get to see the learning process differently. That's why I think there are lots of unschoolers who would make fabulous subjects for a research study.

I think that's why we're able to find so many stories among us about children learning to read in unusual ways. I found all those stories I linked to - How My Children Learned to Read, Two Brothers Who Learned Differently, Four Children Now Reading, and Persephonics - through an unschooling forum. And I thought at the time that it stood to reason that there would be more there, because those were people who'd had so much time during which natural exploration was going on. And let me say again that I'm sure I would not have been one of those who learned it seemingly through osmosis and exposure, even if I'd grown up in an unschooled environment - we're all different!

And that takes me to thinking about the way my creativity and fluidity in artistic things blossomed much later, and I think there's a connection - but that's a whole other conversation I don't have the time to get into right now...

- Lillian

[jessicaSAR]

Yes, we are all different! And that is the main point I have taken from all my research.

One other thing I forgot to mention with regard to fluency is that you can often see these fluency issues if you work with a metronome. The kids with fluency issues will often have trouble staying on beat with the metronome. Their brains are simply not processing the information fast enough. But, again, this can be worked on and improved.

Recalling the metronome thing got me thinking about music education. I think there are some parallels between reading and music education. Obviously, some children are prodigious in music and can play instruments with very little instruction. They have perfect pitch and seem to intuit the structure of the language of music. Other children can learn to become proficient and enjoy playing an instrument with good instruction, and of course some of us really have to work at developing both an ear for music and musical skills.

But, I think like reading, there is good and bad music instruction. I love the Suzuki method. The whole philosophy is that with good, positive instruction anyone can become a proficient musician. And, it really does work.

We may all be able to learn to play an instrument in our elementary school band, but we will not have the proficiency that really good instruction would give us. Of course, the prodigious kids will do great anywhere. It's the rest of the population that really needs good instruction.

I think this is true of reading. Some kids will do great with any method, but most need good instruction to become truly proficient.

Ok, I am sure there are lots of flaws in this analogy, but it just occurred to me today

[Fairy4tmama]

Originally Posted by jessicaSAR

I think this is true of reading. Some kids will do great with any method, but most need good instruction to become truly proficient.

Ok, I am sure there are lots of flaws in this analogy, but it just occurred to me today

I think its a great analogy!

[Fairy4tmama]

Still digesting back with reall toughts later

briansmama Go get a copy of Einstein Never Used Flash Cards: Why Our Children Should Play More and Memorize Less. Your library is sure to have a copy- it was a bestseller (edited to add that it's also an award-winner).

I read this when it came out and loved it! Dh read *most* of it then too. Maybe we'll reread it.

[Lillian J]

I think some of the disagreement comes from the different perceptions we have about how learning and teaching of reading works. I've always felt that the code needs to be shared with someone who wants to know how to read, and some people are arguing that yes, the code needs to be taught. But I think the thing we all sometimes miss is that some children are just able to figure out and therefore learn the code on their own without being taught - it's not that they didn't need the code, but that the little rascals - code breakers - figured it out on their own through close observation and creative thinking and thereby mess up all our theories ! And there seem to be others who instinctively learn to read from bigger parts without integrating the code - and maybe those are the ones who were referred to as doing better once they learn it. Lillian

[UUMom]

I might not agree 100% with all of the ideas in this thread, but I like that it's not the same old 'Oh, kids don't need anything...just read to them and they will learn how to read".

Exploring the complicated realm of the different ways people process reading instruction/information, and learn to decode print is important, imo.

[chfriend]

This thread is a very big help. Thanks.