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Kindy moms--is it really like this? - Page 3

post #41 of 64
Like I said, though, my son's class doesn't use anything like this system, but he's there in the room all day, so if someone gets reprimanded for something, he usually knows about it. So really, what's the difference if the rest of the class knows that little Johnny was spoken to by the teacher for shoving his classmate on the way to recess, or if little Johnny got a yellow card for shoving his classmate on the way to recess? I'm not seeing the difference here.
post #42 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girlprof View Post
I've been in the classroom and this is an excellent teacher. I wonder if teachers who do not have a similar system have a different set of kids?
My kids' school uses the Responsive Classroom model. It is very respectful of students as individuals, and works well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CT Mommy View Post
OMG. I think my decision to homeschool (which I have been agonizing over for months) is cemented. My dd just turned 5 and she is very sensitive. This would be devastating to her.
I'm not anti-homeschooling - we homeschooled for several years - but if you are thinking about sending your child to school, I'd strongly suggest that you investigate your local school rather than basing your decision on random things you read on the internet. For a long time I made the mistake of reading all of the horrible stories about public schools before I realized that although some schools aren't great, what matters is what the schools in MY AREA are like. I don't think that this type of discipline system is very common in MN.
post #43 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by Girlprof View Post
I've been in the classroom and this is an excellent teacher. I wonder if teachers who do not have a similar system have a different set of kids?
My DS's school uses no punishments or rewards. The school is pioneering the Beyond Consequences model by Heather T Forbes. I doubt the children attending my son's school are all little angels. The important thing for me is that the school honors the "basic goodness" in all, the staff understands that children who are disruptive are not bad nor do they need to be punished or reprimanded, they know a dysregulated child is doing its best but needs help to regulate themselves they don't need to be humiliated in front of their peers.
post #44 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by l_olive View Post
Like I said, though, my son's class doesn't use anything like this system, but he's there in the room all day, so if someone gets reprimanded for something, he usually knows about it. So really, what's the difference if the rest of the class knows that little Johnny was spoken to by the teacher for shoving his classmate on the way to recess, or if little Johnny got a yellow card for shoving his classmate on the way to recess? I'm not seeing the difference here.
I've heard and known some teachers who make a HUGE deal of pointing out who was "good" and green or "bad" and yellow/red ect they place the charts in super public for all to see they call out the student and even announce to the class Johnny isn't being nice should jonny have to turn hiscard class? They actually play the "peer pressure" game really the setting up for bullying teasing ect. . DD school does have the card system at least in her grade (kinder) but the kids are not ridiculed they are not called out in front of the class its used more to find the positive. I'm not a hge fan still I think it is unecessary (its an agreed upon school policy) but done "right" I've not seen a big issue with it. My DD is one who can be VERY sensitive about these things she does get upset if her card gets turned which is VERY rare but no more upset than if say I tell her no or if shes just (appropiatly) reprimended without the cards.
post #45 of 64
Yuck. Our public magnet school doesn't use anything like any of this. I don't like it. They teach respect, address problems that arise individually, meeting the needs of that child.
post #46 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by octobermom View Post
I've heard and known some teachers who make a HUGE deal of pointing out who was "good" and green or "bad" and yellow/red ect they place the charts in super public for all to see they call out the student and even announce to the class Johnny isn't being nice should jonny have to turn hiscard class? They actually play the "peer pressure" game really the setting up for bullying teasing ect. .
I agree that that would be pretty horrible for a child to have to endure. But that same awful teacher would find a way to use peer pressure to humiliate a child even without the card system, I would think. "Johnny can't keep his hands to himself today, class. Do you all think Johnny should get to play with you at recess, or should he have to sit by himself against the wall?" No cards, but the tactic is the same.
post #47 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by l_olive View Post
I agree that that would be pretty horrible for a child to have to endure. But that same awful teacher would find a way to use peer pressure to humiliate a child even without the card system, I would think. "Johnny can't keep his hands to himself today, class. Do you all think Johnny should get to play with you at recess, or should he have to sit by himself against the wall?" No cards, but the tactic is the same.
yup I agree the real issue when problems like these come up is often way beyond what "system" is used but how it is carried our and implemented.

Deanna
post #48 of 64
My understanding of this stoplight system is that it is public. So, yes there is a difference between reprimanding someone in front of the class, ie "Jeffrey, chairs are for sitting," or "hitting hurts" and highlighting their misbehaviors publicly all day for their friends to see, just at a time when they are developmentally figuring out their own self-awareness. These children are just babies at 5 and many do not possess the self-control necessary to meet all the requirements of sitting still, standing in line, not talking etc. at this point in time, akin to asking my newborn baby not to cry if he's hungry. Yet, we are willing to insist on perfection and potentially embarrassing them if they are not perfect? Further, do we want them to behave b/c it's they should and it's the right thing to do, or do we want them to be embarassed into behaving? Maybe b/c of large class sizes, understaffed classrooms, inexperienced teachers etc., the ends justify the means?

Example, if you used a reward system for potting training, chores etc., did you give a "sticker" for every time your child used the potty? Or did you highlight everytime he had an accident for all to see? I guess this is really scary for me b/c we have been commitment to gentle and positive discipline at home and my sensitive dd could be open to something completely and shockingly different at Kindy. I thought (assumed) these kind of fear-based tactics went away with paddling.

Furthermore, do we do this with adults? Say, you're at a meeting at work and you happen to make a comment to your neighbor while someone else is talking. Rude? Yes. Appropriate for your boss to mention this to you in private or during your annual review? Yes. Appropriate for your boss to ask for quiet in the room? Yes. But what if your boss went down to the lobby and put your name on a spotlight telling everyone that you misbehaved. What if you were caught making a personal call and your employer posted your picture for all to see? What if you were made to wear a scarlet letter A...Human Resources would have a field day with this kind of public reprimand. I think they would call it a "hostile work environment."

Yes, I am sure that there were other factors contributing to the "demise" of Ross, with whom I went to school. But, his parents were hard-working poor people. They were a particularly loving family that practiced what is now known as attachment parenting (I know all of this b/c I was friends with his sister).

Ironically, the teacher that put his name in the doghouse was one of the best teachers I've ever had. When he cried/wet his pants that day, she lovingly carried him to the nurses office (without concern about getting urine on her dress). But with a class of 25, time alone at the bustop, during recess and gym glass, she could not be present to protect this child from the chiding and humiliating remarks. He was placed in counseling 2x/week at school (which the kids also made fun of him for). Kids, even at 7, can be cruel. When I've talked to his sister and parents about him, they all trace his drastic change of behavior to this incident. Where there several other incidents before this? Yes, probably. Ross was a handful. He WAS a distraction in the classroom and spent many hours in the principals office, standing in the corner etc., so this "doghouse" incident wasn't the first; but it was probably the straw that broke the camels back. Furthermore, he faced years of watching other children being embararrased much the same way. Thankfully, he did have a loving, supporting family and caring and a school system willing to support him, or maybe at some point in high school, he could have brought a gun to school...

Which is my point. Everyone has a breaking point. And, I'm not sure that we want that breaking point to happen at 5-7 yo. Sure, some kids won't have issues with the "spotlight" approach, some will simply conform and get used to it, but some will be effected adversly. (My kids will not do well in this environment, I can assure you.) We can make mistakes as adults and luckily, most of the time, those mistakes are not made public.

As for our homeschooling decision...we have been very focused on learning everything we can about schooling and have been dedicated to this learning process for almost a year. We have poured over books, articles online blogs/forums, talked to educators, joined hsing groups, toured schools and examined our lifestyle. We have not come to a decision yet. We would NEVER base our decision on one comment we saw on the Internet. However, this discussion has opened my eyes to another aspect of schooling.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone on the forum. I am neither pro- or anti- school or hsing. I am just shocked that this happens in public schools especially, in Kindy, especially with all of the current research into positive discipline, attachment parenting gentle child rearing etc.

I think maybe this discussion has been my breaking point. Thanks Mamas!
post #49 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT Mommy View Post
As for our homeschooling decision...we have been very focused on learning everything we can about schooling and have been dedicated to this learning process for almost a year. We have poured over books, articles online blogs/forums, talked to educators, joined hsing groups, toured schools and examined our lifestyle. We have not come to a decision yet. We would NEVER base our decision on one comment we saw on the Internet. However, this discussion has opened my eyes to another aspect of schooling.

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone on the forum. I am neither pro- or anti- school or hsing. I am just shocked that this happens in public schools especially, in Kindy, especially with all of the current research into positive discipline, attachment parenting gentle child rearing etc.

I think maybe this discussion has been my breaking point. Thanks Mamas!
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you hadn't researched homeschooling. I guess I was just talking about my own experiences. I had a good public school experience when I was a child, but I chose to homeschool my children for several years nonetheless. And posting on MDC, I was exposed to countless "bad public school" comments. Reading those comments and hearing about bad public schools in other places made me start questioning my own experiences and made me start thinking negatively about the public schools in my area (that I attended).

I agree that I'm shocked that this kind of stuff happens in public school kindergardens, and I wouldn't send my kids to any school that uses this type of system. As I said before, although it may be common in other places, I don't think it is common in MN. Although there are always exceptions, I think that we tend to have more progressive schools in MN.
post #50 of 64
It's common around here from what I've heard, although it's a teacher thing rather than a whole school thing.

I was talking to a mom the other day who's child had a system like that in 2nd grade. He is now in 5th grade. He worked very hard to do well in 2nd grade, and they also had a reading incentive program that he did very well on. He received many little prizes for his good behavior and reading. His 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade teachers (same school) did not use an incentive program and her son doesn't bother to try hard or read anything without an incentive program. Basically, he learned that without a carrot stick in the end there is no point in trying your best.

The short term results may seem positive, but the long term results can be very negative.

I would have big issues with this system.
post #51 of 64
Quote:
My understanding of this stoplight system is that it is public. So, yes there is a difference between reprimanding someone in front of the class, ie "Jeffrey, chairs are for sitting," or "hitting hurts" and highlighting their misbehaviors publicly all day for their friends to see, just at a time when they are developmentally figuring out their own self-awareness.
I've heard of places where yes its public and kids are called out and issues highlighted all day. At my DD school while they use this is not in huge public view while the kids have access its in a removed area basically with the teacher not hugly displayed for all. Also its the "good" (for lack of a better word) that gets high lighted not those on red. The kids them selfs actually talk about what color they are on and they actually problem sove on how they can help each other in areas they might need to work at. Also they don't get cards turned for say just figgiting or a little talking or other overall expected 5-6 year old behavior.

Quote:
But what if your boss went down to the lobby and put your name on a spotlight telling everyone that you misbehaved. What if you were caught making a personal call and your employer posted your picture for all to see? What if you were made to wear a scarlet letter A...Human Resources would have a field day with this kind of public reprimand. I think they would call it a "hostile work environment."
Again your jumping and assuming all who use this have these ugly charts right up front mocking the kids honestly thats just not what I see here. And sadly umm I HAVE seen rather disgraceful charts (way more harsh than I've ever seen at my DD school) in adult settings ever passed through a break room at a Walmart or Target type store all sorts of charts from whos doing the best and worst whos registers didn't add up who earns parking spaces ect.

Quote:
Example, if you used a reward system for potting training, chores etc., did you give a "sticker" for every time your child used the potty? Or did you highlight everytime he had an accident for all to see? I guess this is really scary for me b/c we have been commitment to gentle and positive discipline at home and my sensitive dd could be open to something completely and shockingly different at Kindy. I thought (assumed) these kind of fear-based tactics went away with paddling.
really neither (potty thing) but we had some unique potty issues most don't. Again your assuming a lot though. Again just going on what I see at MY childs schools charts are in an area away from the public while the kids know its not displayed for all to ridcule I know simpily because her personal folder will have a color on it for the day and if not green a brief reason why its between she and I as a parent (and her teacher) no okay C come get your folder okay class C is on yellow today... Also the good is deffiently high lighted she proudly comes home with her I got caught ...being polite ,acting responsible, having a good character etc stickers. honestly its the good that gets displayed.
Deanna
post #52 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by momtokea View Post
It's common around here from what I've heard, although it's a teacher thing rather than a whole school thing.

I was talking to a mom the other day who's child had a system like that in 2nd grade. He is now in 5th grade. He worked very hard to do well in 2nd grade, and they also had a reading incentive program that he did very well on. He received many little prizes for his good behavior and reading. His 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade teachers (same school) did not use an incentive program and her son doesn't bother to try hard or read anything without an incentive program. Basically, he learned that without a carrot stick in the end there is no point in trying your best.

The short term results may seem positive, but the long term results can be very negative.

I would have big issues with this system.
Because they ONLY relied on charts and made it a if you don't we wont do this you wont get your sticker you wont stay on green ect. Honestly I have used charts at various times with my child and they all were wonderful for the season we "needed" it and then we moved past and were always able to drop the charts. As the move to someone VERY visual they have had huge success.
Going back a bit I'll use the potty example due to some sensory issues my DD was 4.5 and despite actually being an EC minded family she was NOT Potty learned at all. It was almost to the point she lost all confidence and needed a kinda push at first we did a kinda insentive chart where we placed a simple sticker check mark ect for each and every tme she tried to go to the potty success or no (obviously nothing removed or given for not) and when a chart was filled she got a special treat and they were actually kinda "big things. After her first chart filled up (and she got to choose a movie) we upped the anti a bit stickers earned for all sucessful and at the end she was going to get a barbie I ws still having to take her she had no concept on her own that was going to be the finial challange... well after about 4 stickers her body kicked in and she started going totally on her own soon she totally stopped asking for the stickers and the entire thing was abbandoned cause she no longer needed the visual.
I remember being at an age where I clearly benifited from a more tangaible chart and also when those goals were interilized and it wasn't needed.

Deanna
post #53 of 64
This thread reminded me of this entry in Wil Wheaton's blog. It's the story of a teacher taking his butterfly off the butterfly tree when he was 6.
post #54 of 64
In my experience teaching first grade, the color system worked with children who were mostly good, but maybe having a silly day. They reacted and focused back on their work. The kids who had daily behavior issues were "jaded" as another poster said. "Of course I'm on red, I'm always on red." However, all teachers at my school were expected to use this system. Our district is big on consistency.
post #55 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by CT Mommy View Post
My understanding of this stoplight system is that it is public. So, yes there is a difference between reprimanding someone in front of the class, ie "Jeffrey, chairs are for sitting," or "hitting hurts" and highlighting their misbehaviors publicly all day for their friends to see
Very well said. Yes, there is an enormous difference!

It is quite surprising to me how prevalent this method seems to be. I would not have my child in a school that utilized this coercive, shaming, public-labeling technique (and if I had no choice I would raise holy hell to get it barred from use). I am sure that there are teachers who use it for mostly positive reinforcement -- or who barely use it at all. But the original intent of the method seems pointedly shame-centered and inherently peer divisive.

If a child misbehaves, handle it appropriately immediately and then move on. Instead, this method seems akin to a modern-day "dunce hat". I sincerely hope that it is not really like that!!
post #56 of 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by fadedgirl View Post
Very well said. Yes, there is an enormous difference!

It is quite surprising to me how prevalent this method seems to be. I would not have my child in a school that utilized this coercive, shaming, public-labeling technique (and if I had no choice I would raise holy hell to get it barred from use). I am sure that there are teachers who use it for mostly positive reinforcement -- or who barely use it at all. But the original intent of the method seems pointedly shame-centered and inherently peer divisive.

If a child misbehaves, handle it appropriately immediately and then move on. Instead, this method seems akin to a modern-day "dunce hat". I sincerely hope that it is not really like that!!

and once again WOW talk about making huge assumptions. I have no doubt somewhere there is a teacher who uses this as a punitive method who calls out the kids and shames them but sorry so far it just hasn't been that. Not at all not even close. Really truly its not the charts are NOT in public view its more a way to commucate privatly through the kids and other teacher helpers (hard to explain here) its not NOT for shaming the kids openly discuss where they are and not to tease and point and say HE/SHE is bad but they will actually problem solve way to help or validate each other. IF a child is upset which ussually happens cause of eaither a miconception or there dislike of being repermended at all the teacher does tell them too bad point out there bad status but comes (or sends and aid) talks hugs consoles and validates. know for my visual DD the color codes actually work really well with her. What IS displayed and where attention is given is the good there I got caught being "polite, responsible ect stickers. There class efforts to earn so many points towards a bigger goal/prize ect.
My DD deffienlty comes home knowing who is on what but shes is also very observent she also notices when the teacher say got a new pencil or moved the klenex box or when the AC was turned down a degree the lack of a dead bug in the far corner under the green box with the squishy stuff it was there yesterday but not today... (yes that was a report).

Deanna
post #57 of 64
Having worked in many schools that use this system, I can say that for the most part, it is rare for a child to be on red at the end of the day. Generally, you start off reminding them- "Don't forget, we use our walking feet in the room kids". Or- "We can use our loud voices outside later today, but for now let's use our inside voices please." That kind of thing. Many attempts to redirect should be used before having the child switch their cards to yellow. And every school I have been in has had the opportunity to move back to green. I think that without redirection and fair warnings everyone would be on red at the end of the day, including the teachers
post #58 of 64
My DD's kindy teacher uses the colored cards system. Once you move your card on a particular day, it stays at that color for the rest of the day (unless the child misbehaves again and has to move to a "worse" color). They start over on green the next day. From what I've seen (I spend a lot of time in the classroom), it's very effective. There are WAY fewer card-moving instances now than during the first couple months of school, too.

The teacher will say (very calmly- I love this teacher. She's perpetually calm and soft spoken. I'd be shouting at the top of my lungs with 19 kindergarteners ), "Oh Tyler- we don't push our neighbors, even when we get angry. You may move your card to blue." Then she works through the issue with the child, proposing another solution to the problem, has him/her apologize to the other kid if appropriate, etc. Then, the card gets sent home in their daily folder, with a description of the problem behavior. The parent has to sign the card and return it to school so that she knows that the parents are aware of what's going on with their kid in the classroom.

I have no problem with the "public-ness" of the system. If a child breaks the rules, there are consequences- one of those consequences is that the other kids know about it. In kindy, they're all in each other's business anyway, but when they're aware of their peers behavior, I think it's a good reminder of what's appropriate and what's not.

The kids who stay on green all day long get a sticker at the end of the day- it goes on their behavior chart. When the chart is full, they get to pick a prize out of the treasure chest. Some kids take 15 days to fill a 15 sticker chart, others take several months, but the teacher is really clear about the fact that they get to choose how fast the chart gets filled up. I love that she's enforcing what we teach at home- your behavior has consequences, you get to choose whether they are fun or not so fun consequences. But it's your choice.
post #59 of 64
The times we have seen this system utilized it was very public and used in an angry manner. The teachers would yell at the kids across the room, "Tyler! Move your yellow card!" or "put a check next to your name!" In the "color coded" classroom, the kids were also grouped by the same colors: green, yellow, and red for reading and math groups with the red groups being the "slow" groups.
post #60 of 64
I have only heard about this on MDC, but get the impression it's common. The crunchy public school our kids go to doesn't use it.
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