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Instict vs Research?

post #1 of 22
Thread Starter 
Before I read any of the vax books, threads, or articles I knew I would not be vaxing my infant. I'm not quite sure when or how I came to this decision. My last vax was hep (A?) in 1998 entering college. I didn't question it then, so must have been sometime later, although I think that some exposure to the natural foods movement growing up has impacted me.

In various ped. appts. I have voiced concerns over toxic ingredients, a relative's son who had a bad reaction, Dr. Sears' book, overtaxing the body with the immunization (regardless of the additional ingredients), but I am by no means an expert and don't plan to become one. Problem is, when pressed I would have a hard time being in a debate.

Is it enough to simply hold my beliefs, having done my soul searching and thinking, but not have the data/examples/etc. to support it? Is anyone else in this boat?
post #2 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJHCFamily View Post
Is it enough to simply hold my beliefs, having done my soul searching and thinking, but not have the data/examples/etc. to support it? Is anyone else in this boat?
IMO, no.

but I am a very 'scientific' person and vary rarely make decisions based on emotion. Except for 'what do I want for lunch.'

The thinking part is a good start, but keep going! Do your research!
post #3 of 22
Pediatricians aren't interested in debating.

Debating with your dear friends or your beloved family isn't the shortest path to harmony and delight.

The main reason I can think of for really doing the research is peace of mind. Feeling sure that you have carefully looked into the question on both sides, know how to handle childhood illnesses if they occur, know how to cope with all the vaccine laws and exemptions...all that sort of stuff. The tools you need to get through all the years of parenthood sans vaccines. This level of knowledge does take some time, but is not equal to an advanced degree in immunology.
post #4 of 22
I'm a firm believer in the power of the "mommy instinct". If your gut says no, don't do it.

But it helps to have factual information to back up your initial reservations about it, if only for your own peace of mind.

As for arguing with others...well, I don't enjoy it, but if you're going to then it's certainly easier to do after you've done a bit of research.
post #5 of 22
Over the years I have learned to trust my own gut feelings completely. I will often times sleep on a problem to find when I wake up I know what to do. It has never failed me and I can completely rely on my instincts.

Science is fickle. What is right today may be totally wrong tomorrow. The earth was flat more than once.

You don't have to explain anything to anyone. Simply saying "it doesn't set right with me" should be enough. There is no need to go further.
post #6 of 22
I barely knew anything about vaxes before I had DS almost 2 years ago. I heard my post-partum roomie's High-Risk OB mention her baby's Hepatitis vax and I immediately figured the roomie had Hepatitis (she was a little "rough.") The next day they came after MYYYY DS with the Hep vax and my gut said "WHOA, what is THIS???????" but they talked me into it because I figured I didn't know anything. When I watched them inject my son with God knows what, I knew right then at that moment that I needed to do more research because it felt so so wrong.

The research for me is difficult, there's a lot of concepts and data and evidence and other things I don't understand. These boards have been my best resource...so much information and links and scenarios and people willing to help.
post #7 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJHCFamily View Post
Is it enough to simply hold my beliefs, having done my soul searching and thinking, but not have the data/examples/etc. to support it? Is anyone else in this boat?
This is a question only you can answer. I feel extremely compelled to research. My DH relies on his gut (and me ) The problem is that in the end, both research and your gut are only guides. Ultimately, you have to make choices and feel comfortable with them. This is the hard part. For me, no amount of research or instinct makes me 100% comfortable with any of the options.
post #8 of 22
Both instinct and research can get it wrong. I would use the falt Earth thing as an example of Science correcting instinct. For me, if my instinct tells me something, but when it's investigated it doesn't pan out, then I rethink my instinct (I might still not abandon my instinct, but I'd think long and hard about it). At least more research brings greater certainty, I'm not sure it works the same way with instinct.
post #9 of 22
I never go against my gut anymore when it comes to medical care, especially medical care which is supposed to be preventative in nature.

I believe doctors do a lot of good but their talent should be reserved for the very sick and injured. Not very sick or injured to me = take care of it at home.
post #10 of 22
I understand how you feel. Ive done a lot of research and I cant even remember half of what I have researched so if someone doesnt agree with my decision it is hard for me to come back with a lot of facts to prove my point. In my opinion I do not have to justify my decision about vaccines to anyone. Most of the people who don't agree with me anyways, wouldnt even if I could give then tons of examples of this and that!
post #11 of 22
For me emma-adama's signature sums up an important side of this for me:

"We know nothing 'til intuition agrees."

Ultimately we all go with our instinct. You, me, the CDC. But in trusting our instinct we have the problem that different people's instinct tells them different things to our instinct. How do we resolve the differences in what instinct tells us? Surely Science provides a framework wherby things that our instinct is telling us can be tested.

Nobody has to justify their decisions on this. We all go with our instinct in the end. Surely science can be a tool for testing, questioning and refining that instinct.
post #12 of 22
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by serenitii View Post
For me, no amount of research or instinct makes me 100% comfortable with any of the options.
I have this feeling exactly! I find the research to be overwhelming and that whichever stand you would like to take on vaxes, you can find "research" to support it.

I definitely disengage from debate when family members or others try to probe. I voice my concerns and phrase most things as "these are questions I have yet to find answers that satisfy my concerns."

I agree with the PP that doing research on supporting the immune system, laws, and other things related to non-vaxing is important. This is much more practical in our day-to-day lives and feels like more rewarding and applicable work.
post #13 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by AJHCFamily View Post
I have this feeling exactly! I find the research to be overwhelming and that whichever stand you would like to take on vaxes, you can find "research" to support it.

I definitely disengage from debate when family members or others try to probe. I voice my concerns and phrase most things as "these are questions I have yet to find answers that satisfy my concerns."

I agree with the PP that doing research on supporting the immune system, laws, and other things related to non-vaxing is important. This is much more practical in our day-to-day lives and feels like more rewarding and applicable work.
Well put
post #14 of 22
I think you absolutely need to trust your instincts. I was in the same boat. Something just told me not to do it. Yes, I had heard all the autism and MMR stories, but that was only one shot, and I didn't feel comfortable with any of them.
I started off just saying "I'm not doing it..." and didn't do much more research past reading Dr. Sears book. As time went on though, I realized that I had to have some ammo because I would get bombarded with the scare tactics. I realized that I really wanted to have some facts to throw back their way.
In my case, what my instincts told me mirror what all the research I have done told me. Not to do it.
I am not a debater, and I often ball up when the debate begins with family members and such, but I have the ammo if it needs to be used, and that is what makes me continue to be confident in my decision.
post #15 of 22

I agree

I feel the same way. I knew I didn't want to vax, so I set about to research as much as I could. But then I had an actual baby to take care of. I really don't know how people can find the time to pour over books, articles, blogs, videos, etc while they're caring for a young baby. I think it's really great that they do because without them, I wouldn't have the snippits of validation that I do. I guess I'm just not the researching kind of person. I have so much that I want to learn about from child development, to gentle disciplin, to vaxination, to nutrition, and I never seem to have enough time to do any one. So, I'm just trying to do what I can, and then rely on my gut. I'm not the person to look to if you need a spokesperson for antivax. I wish I was because I like to talk, but I just don't have the brain capacity or the time.

I'm rambling, but I'm right there with you.
post #16 of 22
I remember what got me started thinking about this issue, it was a thread on local board where a mama had a son with autism and thought it was caused by the mmr vaccine. The kicker for me was NJ statistic 1 in 69 children with autism. I found that beyond shocking - it was like a light went off in me. My son was due for his mmr so I started asking myself questions. I am very much a "to the point" person and don't like to delve into useless detail very much so my method of finding information has to be to go directly to sources as close to primary as possible. This is incredibly time consuming and I am just starting out, but in the end I know I will not vax anyway (unless I am overruled by my DH at some point). I don't think it is because I fear a vax reaction or autism, but because I truly feel that the immune system is not fully understood by science yet. My son has allergies and even allergies are poorly understood.
post #17 of 22
For me it ends up being a slightly different debate. It's not instinct versus science. It's nature versus science--or at least, my understanding of nature versus science.

I knew I could have a homebirth because my physiology supports it--I am a mammal and that's what we do. You don't see cows hooked up to IVs, or fetal monitors unless it's a Hathor the Cow Goddess cartoon. (I know some women have problems--I'm not starting a debate here. My point is that we are natural beings with all of the equipment, if it's supported right, to birth naturally.)

I knew I would breastfeed because my mom did and all of the women preceding her. I was no different than all of the other women in the world through all of history--I have breasts, so I will breastfeed.

My son was born with a foreskin, so we would not lop it off.

My kids did not have an aluminum/mercury/attenuated cells deficiency, so I felt no need to inject them with those ingredients.

In my thinking, the default is nature and what that means. Does it mean processed food and antibiotics at every sniffle, or does it mean real whole food and letting a fever burn off a bug?

I think true science begins with accurate observation to see what is and why. Next come hypotheses and experiments that help describe and suggest limits. Vaccine research doesn't seem to do any of this. Or, not much. The science doesn't try to understand nature and yet we are natural beings, despite the plastic, pollution and toxins that surround us.

When my kids were little, a woman in a playgroup with me said that she had read an article in a parenting mag (not Mothering...) where the author had suggested that there's not enough medicating of ADD or ADHD. They thought many more kids should be drugged up.

My thinking was nature based--how is this generation different than any other generation--how could their chemistry be wired wrong? My answer was that it couldn't be different except to the extent that maybe it had been messed with.

Perhaps routine ultrasound, invasive prenatal testing, invasive medical procedures during birth, formula, vaccines, CIO, and all of the other western medical approaches to pregnancy and birth and infancy do have a negative effect on brain function or digestion or metabolism or every other system in a newborn.

Maybe these things add up. A stressed out baby has different brain waves and breathing and body temperature than a baby at peace. That is science. That is also nature.

A formula fed baby has a different gut flora than a breastfed baby--also nature and science.

I also think people get stuck into thinking that they are healthy because of western 21st century medicine. The medical community can identify when things are going wrong, but I don't think they are much good at fixing it. Or they identify symptoms, treat them, and ignore the underlying cause. That's not all that scientific to me.

My kids are healthy. Again, I don't want to debate, but, they have none of the health issues that so many of the kids in our homeschooling group have. These other kids have been vaccinated and get drugged up when sick. Solids were introduced at an early age. Fevers were always treated with drugs. They have food allergies, skin conditions, asthma. They get colds easily and often.

These other parents have bought into an allopathic or conventional medical approach to health and their kids are the sicker for it. I don't think true science supports what they have done. Nature certainly doesn't.

I guess my instinct tells me to follow nature and try to understand that. If science seems to explain that well, then I accept it.
post #18 of 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by lauradbg View Post
For me it ends up being a slightly different debate. It's not instinct versus science. It's nature versus science--or at least, my understanding of nature versus science.

I knew I could have a homebirth because my physiology supports it--I am a mammal and that's what we do. You don't see cows hooked up to IVs, or fetal monitors unless it's a Hathor the Cow Goddess cartoon. (I know some women have problems--I'm not starting a debate here. My point is that we are natural beings with all of the equipment, if it's supported right, to birth naturally.)

I knew I would breastfeed because my mom did and all of the women preceding her. I was no different than all of the other women in the world through all of history--I have breasts, so I will breastfeed.

My son was born with a foreskin, so we would not lop it off.

My kids did not have an aluminum/mercury/attenuated cells deficiency, so I felt no need to inject them with those ingredients.

In my thinking, the default is nature and what that means. Does it mean processed food and antibiotics at every sniffle, or does it mean real whole food and letting a fever burn off a bug?

I think true science begins with accurate observation to see what is and why. Next come hypotheses and experiments that help describe and suggest limits. Vaccine research doesn't seem to do any of this. Or, not much. The science doesn't try to understand nature and yet we are natural beings, despite the plastic, pollution and toxins that surround us.

When my kids were little, a woman in a playgroup with me said that she had read an article in a parenting mag (not Mothering...) where the author had suggested that there's not enough medicating of ADD or ADHD. They thought many more kids should be drugged up.

My thinking was nature based--how is this generation different than any other generation--how could their chemistry be wired wrong? My answer was that it couldn't be different except to the extent that maybe it had been messed with.

Perhaps routine ultrasound, invasive prenatal testing, invasive medical procedures during birth, formula, vaccines, CIO, and all of the other western medical approaches to pregnancy and birth and infancy do have a negative effect on brain function or digestion or metabolism or every other system in a newborn.

Maybe these things add up. A stressed out baby has different brain waves and breathing and body temperature than a baby at peace. That is science. That is also nature.

A formula fed baby has a different gut flora than a breastfed baby--also nature and science.

I also think people get stuck into thinking that they are healthy because of western 21st century medicine. The medical community can identify when things are going wrong, but I don't think they are much good at fixing it. Or they identify symptoms, treat them, and ignore the underlying cause. That's not all that scientific to me.

My kids are healthy. Again, I don't want to debate, but, they have none of the health issues that so many of the kids in our homeschooling group have. These other kids have been vaccinated and get drugged up when sick. Solids were introduced at an early age. Fevers were always treated with drugs. They have food allergies, skin conditions, asthma. They get colds easily and often.

These other parents have bought into an allopathic or conventional medical approach to health and their kids are the sicker for it. I don't think true science supports what they have done. Nature certainly doesn't.

I guess my instinct tells me to follow nature and try to understand that. If science seems to explain that well, then I accept it.
:
post #19 of 22
In cases like this, I kind of feel like your instincts can be the thing that tip the scales toward one decision or another. In other words, you do your research and you find that there are pros and cons to vaxing. You understand those pros and cons as thoroughly as you can. Now obviously two people can look at the same research and still arrive at different conclusions. So that is where your instinct kicks in. You know there are risks no matter what you choose, and you understand what those risks are. But your instinct guides you toward which path would be best.

But with something like this, which is an important medical decision that you make on behalf of your child, no--I would most certainly not go on instinct alone. Not when there is so much information out there to help you make a truly informed choice.

And this I say not to be harsh but I think if you reframed your thinking a bit it would be helpful to you. Instead of thinking of needing to research more or have more data at your fingertips for the purposes of debating with doctors, etc., I'd suggest thinking of having those things so that you can be confident about the choice you made for your dc, and that it's the best one for him/her.

ETA: Okay, so it sounds like you *have* done the research but just aren't in command of it enough to be an expert debater! So let me sort of tweak my above recommendation to say that as long as you have done a level of research that you are comfortable with and that you feel has provided you with the confidence that non-vaxing is the way to go--don't worry about the debating! Ultimately, it's your choice to make for your infant and you don't owe it to anyone--even your dr.--to convince them of your position. A simple, "This is what we've decided is best for our child. End of story." should do it.
post #20 of 22
This happens to me. I do my research and I understand but I am just lousy at explaining it (even to DH) so I always feel like a crazy mom not to be taken seriously. It is true that the Dr is not the one to debate with. They don't have to do research. They can just keep saying what the AAP says.

I email my Ped links to articles I see and I ask her to see what she thinks since she is a Dr and can understand that kind of thing. I have not yet felt reassured by her reply. It is always something like "Well yes this could be true or it could not..the AAP says this______". In response to one she actually said "The more you look the more you'll find" ummmm okay. That makes me want to vax even less, not more!

I am trying to find a couple of facts to hold on to when I feel a "you don't want his vax!..the horror!" convo coming on. For example, lack of long term studies etc. The truth is that NOBODY knows what vaccines do to us. Even doctors are just human and we don't really know what we are messing with. A study is just a study, that is all. It can be flawed, biased, skewed, incorrect, etc. You can find a study to say anything you want to say. Okay I'm getting a little worked up. Time to go.
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