CLW in the animal kingdom?

[kriket]

I was thinking about this the other day while feeding the horses.

I grew up on a breeding farm (American Curly Horses PM me ) that my mom runs. I have seen animals get pregnant be born, weaned, grow, what have you. The thing I was thinking about is our brood mare always weans her babies. She knows when its time for them to 'be done'.

Now, I don't have a problem with CLW. I think its sweet that children can nurse until their hearts content. I was just wondering if others have thought about the horse example? Is it because they are prey animals and must be self relying earlier? (my best guess) I feel like I will know when to 'wean' my baby. It may be about the same time that they decide to wean themselves, it may be earlier, I may be sad when they decide to quit before I'm ready.

thoughts?

[La Sombra]

Hm, I don't really know much about the weaning process in mammals other than humans (and, in fact, were it not for sources like Mothering, I don't know if I'd have followed my own mammal instincts in nursing my baby!) The only thing I have to contribute to this conversation is that when we adopted our kitten, one of the workers at the Humane Society said that they had to separate her from her mamma 'cause she kept wanting to nurse. (I know, I know...doesn't that break your heart?) I asked when kittens typically wean and she said "At like 4 weeks." And I remember just thinking, Um, apparently not! I mean, was this just like an arbitrary number that vets decided on? If the kitten's still wanting to nurse and the mamma is letting her, well then she hasn't weaned, right?

That said, if you say there are animals that encourage their babies to wean, well that doesn't surprise me either. Raising your young is a dance in every way of you nudging them toward ever-increasing independence, them resisting here and there, and finally them racing toward independence you you perhaps resisting a little! Why should weaning not be part of this whole big intricate dance that is child-rearing? :

[AAK]

I think about this too. I have witnessed momma cats wean their kittens, (not a four weeks!) I have also seen momma cows wean their calves. (on the opposite side, I have seen a momma cow allow an older calf to start nursing again after the baby was born). I think that when we hear of moms who get a "creepy", "resentful", or otherwise negative feeling when nursing, that perhaps it is nature's way of encouraging weaning. I support CLW, but I do think this is real too.

Amy

[fruitfulmomma]

I asked when kittens typically wean and she said "At like 4 weeks."

Not! I have had kittens nurse upwards of 6 months, maybe longer.

I also heard a neat story at my baby shower about a kitten whose mother lost her milk after her birth and had to be hand-fed and then when the mom had another litter this kitten decided she would go ahead and get her turn at the breast right along with the new ones.

[aileen]

it seems like this thread pops up on the clw-ing board every so often.
i think you'd be hard pressed to find a mother of a four or five year old nursing who hasn't considered the biological implications of her decision, and it's place in the "natural" world.
i'm just going to repeat myself from last time, i hope that's appropriate.

but, what do we mean by "natural" though?
i thought ALOT about this when i was sort of "signing on" to do CLW. i felt like i needed a term to hang my hat on since i was feeling so alone nursing my child (when she was just three, even), but i wasn't sure if CLW was natural - i.e. i couldn't find many examples of indigenous peoples or other species that were CLWers or tandem nursers.

i mean, chimps also are fiercely territorial and have been observed to engage in plotted, savage, unprovoked beatings and cannibalism. remember how shocked jane godall was to discover that? also their life span is considerably shorter than ours. if baby chimps were the benchmark then woudn't natural mean that mama humans (adjusting for lifespan, super conservatively) would actively wean their over five year olds (at the earliest). i would hazzard a guess that most of us mamas nursing almost five year olds or 5+ would consider weaning to be more "active" than not, and my delightful girl is certainly going through a clingy and needy phase as she straddles the vast and confusing big kid/little kid divide.

there is this mama i admire who nursed her babe to age five. the baby grew to be extremely close to her sister after weaning, but still slept with mom. when the mama had first started nursing (this was her first babe), she offered her milk to two other children she was living with at the time who had had difficult, lonesome babyhoods. they nursed from her too. when she saw my two week old son she ran over to us and put her hand on the glass between us and stared and stared for a long time and looked deep into my eyes as if to say, "you treat that baby right. you are so lucky to have him." (i tried to wink at her and let her know my four year old had nursed during labor...) the docent wept at the mama's intense attention and affection. "you just made her day," the docent said wiping her cheeks.
the mama is a gorgeous gorilla named kiki. she lives in franklin park zoo in boston.

i guess i just think you should chose your examples by following your heart, not by following the pack, no matter the species. all animals live in societies.
i just want to nurse until the need is fully met. i am extremely lucky to be in a position to make that entitled choice.

so that's my little (LONG) thoughts about it.

[churndash]

I don't think human mothers and animal mothers are analagous. No other animal devotes as much time and care to their young as humans. Cats, dogs, horses - they may wean earlier but they also leave their offspring to fend for themselves at a very young age. Dogs or cats may fight with or kill their offspring.

I am not a horse, a gorilla, a cat, a chimpanzee, or any other mammal, so when those creatures wean is irrelevant to me.

[boatbaby]

Originally Posted by aileen

i guess i just think you should chose your examples by following your heart, not by following the pack, no matter the species. all animals live in societies.
i just want to nurse until the need is fully met. i am extremely lucky to be in a position to make that entitled choice. [/SIZE]

::

[Mommal]

I've absolutely thought about how farm animals wean their babies. Having seen the cows butt their adolescent calves off when they crawl under to nurse, and the dogs stand up and shake off their litters of half-grown puppies, and the cats slink off from their older kittens, etc., I am convinced that most animals naturally give their young ones a little shove when it's time to wean.

But when a mama cow/horse/cat/dog weans, their offspring are usually well towards animal adolescence. And the mama is often pregnant again- maybe with sore nipples that can't stand up to heavy use. And a cow or horse or dog or cat is really very different from an ape...

According to this terrific article, the natural (as opposed to the cultural) age for human weaning is between 2.5 and 7 years old- well before adolescence.

If my kid is still nursing at 7, I'm pretty sure I'm going to give her a little shove!

[sapphire_chan]

Originally Posted by churndash

I am not a horse, a gorilla, a cat, a chimpanzee, or any other mammal, so when those creatures wean is irrelevant to me.

The gorillas and chimpanzees are studied so we can get a feel for what's *biologically* an appropriate weaning time since they're genetically similar to us but don't have cultural things affecting weaning time.

[kriket]

all of your replies are great! These are exactly the thoughts that I've been having! I am very happy that we (as humans) have the ability to reason and use judgment. I do also agree with Amy quite a bit. When mamas get the 'creepy' or resentful feeling, it may be their time to wean. We'll see when I get there!

Keep the thoughts coming!

[churndash]

The gorillas and chimpanzees are studied so we can get a feel for what's *biologically* an appropriate weaning time since they're genetically similar to us but don't have cultural things affecting weaning time.

But the whole point of CLW is that each child decides when it's appropriate for him/her self wean, not some chimpanzee study.

I doubt anyone here would tell their LO "sorry kiddo, but some anthropologist studying gorillas says you're done."

I stand by my comment. I don't care when any other mother (animal or human) weans their child. It has nothing to do with the nursing relationship I have (or had, in my case, as my youngest is now weaned).

[karika]

yes we can find out a lot by looking at the animal kingdom. i grew up on a farm and have seen many births and babies with mommas. we did not sell our stock, so the animals always nursed as nature intended. cats begin the weaning process anywhere from 4-6 months. most cats are done nursing by 8 months. consider the average life span of a cat is about 15 years
( http://www.france-property-and-infor...-years-age.htm ) and since they are sexually mature at the end of their first year, the first year is equivalent to 15 human years. so if a kitten weans at 6 mo, then it is equivalent to anywhere from 2.5 (based on comparison of average life span to average lifespan of human) to 7.5 (based on the fact that the kitten is sexually mature at 1 yr and so it is equivalent to 15 human years) but i prefer to look at the primate community. we are most closely related ot a little known primate called the bonobo.

http://www.awf.org/content/wildlife/detail/bonobo

http://www.bonobo.org/whatisabonobo.html

They live peacefully in female based societies. when they meet a different tribe of bonobos in the jungle, they share food instead of fight. They nurse their young until 5 generally and they live 50-55 yrs.