Circ and tongue-tie?

[homeschoolingmama]

My 2 month old son is tongue-tied. I researched it and it said it is just a snip at a young age like he is but when he is older it will require a general and stitches. It reminded me of circumcision because as a baby they often don't use pain meds but do more for adults. I am completely against circ so should i be against tongue-tie snipping? Is it cruel like circ? I know circ is way worse but is it like the same thing? There are negatives to being tongue-tied but not being intact. Or are they really negatives for tongue-tie or is that the medical people making stuff up like they do with circ?

[Ann-Marita]

Baby boys are generally born with foreskins. It's what is considered normal. Most babies are not born with tongue tie; it's something that is considered out of the ordinary.

So, I see a big difference between cutting off normal, healthy tissue and correcting something that might not be quite right.

I know very little about tongue tie. Except that a friend's dd experienced a slight tongue tie. It did not effect her nursing (much) as a baby, but did effect her speech when she got to talking age. Other older relatives had spoken "funny" when they were little and outgrew it as they matured. My friends opted to not do surgery, and the dd (now a young teen) has no speech impediment now.

You might want to post over in Health & Healing to ask about tongue tie.

[homeschoolingmama]

I know that they are hugely different but somewhat similar in the fact that there are probably differing opinions on the matter. I am usually against medical intervention but not sure if I should be this time. It is hard to know who to trust. I wholly trust people in the circ forum because they don't believe in unnecessary medical intervention. They say it is just a snip as an infant but as an adult it is more involved. Just like with circ. Circ it is wrong. It hurts babies too. Would be the same with tongue-tie? I guess I could post this elsewhere. I am not sure I am getting out what I am trying to say.

[LavenderMae]

Tongue tie isn't the way a tongue is meant to be but foreskin is a normal part of the penis, the penis isn't whole with out it.
My 3rd baby (ds2) was tongue tied and I had the midwife clip it when he was 4 days old. He was bf'ing non-stop and my nipples were really suffering (mostly from the bad latch). He was not able to latch correctly and was not getting enough milk, thus the non-stop bf'ing. Luckily he did not lose any weight etc. I have not regretted getting his tongue clipped once. I have no doubt it would have caused weight gain issues and I don't even want to think about what it would have done to my nipples. I know it sounds like the make believe circ stories bu my ds didn't really cry when it was clipped and it barely bled (I mean only a drop or two). Also it literally only took seconds to do. Now the PKU test on the other hand was hell.

There is a school of thought that tongue tie causes digestion problems that can be linked to allergies also.

[earthmama369]

Tongue tie is nothing like circ. I had the same thought when I took my intact little boy to get his tongue tie clipped, and I did a lot of research on frenectomies and frenotomies. Tongue tie is a midline defect. A foreskin is not a defect. Tongue tie kept my baby from nursing well, which impacted both his health and mine. A healthy foreskin benefits my son and has no effect on me, other than the happiness and satisfaction of a mother who knows that her child is healthy and has full function of a normal body part. Tongue tie is not normal and it prevents full function.

OK, so that's the logic. Now the experience.

The frenulum under the tongue develops nerves and becomes thicker over time, but as an infant, it's a thin membrane. (Very different than a foreskin, which has tons of nerves at birth!) I was really nervous when I brought ds in at 4 months old, because he was a little older than they usually like to do it and I was worried he had developed nerve endings and a thicker frenulum by that point. The doctor checked him out once more and said it looked ok, and I laid him down on the examining table. I put my fingers out so ds could hold on and not have his hands in the way, but he wasn't restrained or strapped down beyond keeping his hands busy. The doctor used what looked like a blunt two-tine fork to lift his tongue and a blunt pair of scissors to clip his tongue tie. I was focused intently on ds and he didn't jump or clench or give any sign that he felt the clip. I picked him up right away and nursed him and his latch was much better, although it took 2-3 months for him to really figure out how to coordinate his muscles after that. He bled a couple drops, which mixed with his saliva and looked like more. I freaked out a little until I realized it was diluted with lots of drool, and his onesie and my shirt were ruined (wear old clothes!).

That was the extent of it. I checked his tongue when we got home and the next day and there was no scabbing, no scarring. You could see where the cut was made but it wasn't inflamed at all and now it looks like his big sister's. You can't tell his got his tongue clipped anymore.

*Very* different from my nephew post-circumcision. He had a *wound* and it was for no reason.

[2xy]

My son was tongue-tied. It didn't affect his nursing or speech, so we never bothered with it. The only problem he had was that he couldn't stick out his tongue very far.

As he got older, his mouth grew, and his teeth shifted, the frenulum began to get caught between his bottom front teeth on a frequent basis, which hurt and would cause it to bleed.

He was having other surgery for which he would be put under, anyway, so we had the tongue snipped. Yeah, it needed stitches.

[latinalonestar]

Tongue-tie must be corrected if the baby is not able to nurse. It is just a snip at the tongue frenulum to release the tongue, it doesn't remove any part of the tongue. If the baby is able to nurse then there would not be any reason to correct it however many babies can not nurse with tongue tie b/c it prevents them from making the stripping motion necessary to nurse correctly.

Tongue-tie can not be compared to circ but it can be compared to a frenuloplasty. A frenuloplasty is done on an ADULT male if his frenulum that attaches the foreskin is too short, this is called a frenulum breve. (tight banjo string) This does not damage the foreskin or frenulum, it just allows it to lengthen.

[kriket]

plus, all babys don't have their tongues clipped at birth in fear for the small percentage that actually do have tongue tie and need a clip.

we don't clip tongues because girls like the way guys with clipped tongues kiss, or because mom/dad had their tongue clipped. KWIM?

Circs are a fashion statement. Tongue clipping essential for some or they would be unable to nurse or talk!

[moonglowmama]

They really are not the same thing, as others have already explained.

My daughter was quite tongue-tied, though she could nurse well. After researching I took her in to a midwife who has a lot of experience with doing it, and the procedure took about 3 seconds. If you decide to do it, it really is better to do it when they're little, so as to have less impact on speech development. We did my dd's when she was 4 months old; I only wish we'd done it right away, as she now has speech problems and I wonder if that lapse contributed.

As to the procedure, in our case we took her into the office, laid her on the table and held her arms and chest down (another reason to do ti earlier) and that made her mad and she started crying. Midwife said that was what we wanted as it exposed the frenulum, making it easier and quicker. She put this blunted fork-like instrument around the frenulum to protect the tongue and then it was a simple snip. It bled just slightly. I picked her up and she was fine after that. Honestly, I was a little shaken up because I hated even the process of holding her down, even though it was for less than a minute. But I don't think it hurt her, and she was immediately smiling and started sticking her tongue out, which we hadn't seen before.

[knucklehead]

My son was tongue tied and we had it cut. In this case it really is just a little "snip" unlike a circ which is horrific. What I thought was odd was that I had to search for a doc to do it. Our pediatrician wouldn't do it. We ended up at an ENT to snip a thin piece of membrane with scissors. She also told us that if we had waited any longer ( he was 8 weeks old) they would have had to use general anesthesia.

I couldn't wrap my mind around this. If I had wanted my son's penis mutilated I could have found many docs willing to do this, including the pediatricain and my OB. Also, they certainly wouldn't have insisted on general anesthesia.

It makes no sense. Few docs are willing to "clip" a tongue tie, which can lead to a myriad of problems including nursing issues, speech deficits and even dental problems, but they are lining up to torture and mutilate a baby's penis for purely cosmetic reasons. This makes my brain hurt!

[baybee]

I'm glad to see this subject mentioned here. I find it interesting that there is so much discussion of tongue tie on the lactation consultant's email lists. They seem to find it lurking around every corner. Makes me nervous. I wonder if it's just too many experts looking for trouble. It's one of the problems of specialization.

[Dahlea]

I have a small tongue tie and wish my mom would have had it taken care of when I was a baby. It doesn't affect my speech or anything, but it does make things like kissing difficult!

[vintagetroll]

my son has a tongue tie that I refused to have clipped. Everyone in my family is, and we are also all missing the muscle that allows you to roll your tongue. ( a rare genetic thing) I could not get an answer if the "little clip" was going to affect this anamoly, and since everyone in my family is fine I chose not to. I would have if I didn't have those questions though.
Mine did effect nursing, and after EPing for as long as I could he is on formula. I will always question if I made the right decision healthwise but I do know that you can live happily with a tongue tie, because I do!

oh and I did weigh the fact that I wasn't doing it with my circ stance, mostly because it is "normal" for my family. I did have lingering feelings I was changing something that was healthy. I know thats not totally true, but maybe we are this way( my family only) for a reason

[wytchywoman]

I was told by an LC that my youngest was tongue tied and would need to be clipped. I refused to do it and nothing has ever come about of it. He has had to have oral motor therapy for other reasons, but the OT at that time never even mentioned it. I also am tongue tied and didn't even know it until a dentist pointed it out a year ago. I was also told to circ my son "just in case" and nothing has come about of that either.
In a way I kind of understand your analogy. Circ now without anesthesia to prevent later problems that would have to be addressed with a general = clip the frenulum now without anesthesia to prevent future problems that would need to be addressed with a general. I can see where you are coming from and my stance on the tongue tie is the same as circing. It's a surgery, no matter how minor they try to pass it off as, it's still surgery. Why do it unless you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it's needed right now?

[123]

My younger son was also tongue tied. My sister's daughter had had issues with her tongue that caused lots of nursing problems and I didn't want to risk that. So I let them clip it in the hospital (with dh and I present). I also thought about the circ issue when this happened. But it's like pp's said, the foreskin is normal and has positive functions while a tongue tie is not normal and often causes problems. My son cried, but only had one drop of blood and was easily soothed. Also it was immediately obvious that his latch was better afterward.

[Quirky]

One of the reasons a lot of doctors pooh-pooh the idea that tongue tie is a problem or needs to be corrected in some babies is that back in the day, like in the 1930s and 40s or thereabouts, many babies had their tongue frenula clipped because it was thought that it would promote better speech and articulation. My aunt, born in 1936, had it done when she was a baby. She could touch her nose with her tongue, but other than that it had no benefit.

So there was a time when tongue frenulum clipping was a fad, done to many babies for no good reason, for bogus reasons. Much like infant circumcision.

But -- as all the previous posters have pointed out -- true tongue tie is an abnormal condition that can jeopardize nursing and normal speech development. And its remedy, when done young enough, is minimally invasive. So I think it's a very, very different thing to clip a baby's tongue so that he can nurse and learn to speak properly, or to cut his foreskin off for (insert bogus reason in here) causing a great deal of pain and suffering.

[MommytoB]

I totall agree with what everyone said foreskin isn't a birth defect .

tongue ties and cross eyes are birth defect.

Suprisingly cross eye surgery and circ have much in common they are done for cosmetic purposes .

Cross eyes you can still see out of them but many parents don't like the way they look so they put their kids through an eye surgery to move the muscle so they can put the eyes back into normal position.

http://www.strabismus.org/surgery_crossed_eyes.html

[PuppyFluffer]

I totally get the thought process that connects this to the circ issue.

My son was born with a moderate tongue tie. After a lot of research, I opted to leave it. From what I researched, unless the latch is terrible and the baby is unable to nurse and receive sufficient nourishment, the idea is to leave it alone.

My son's has stretched over time and he can clearly stick his tongue out of his mouth. He is 10 months now. It's not a problem for him and I am glad I did not do anything with it.

[homeschoolingmama]

How do I know if he is nursing properly? It seems like I don't have enough milk. I have something called SPD - Sensory Processing Disorder. I have a hard time being touched lightly. Nursing is awful. He nurses but sometimes needs a few ounces of formula a day. I want to just nurse but I can't handle nursing him all the time to get my milk up. Could this be the reason my milk has gone down? When he nurses I feel the letdown. He does eat but sometimes he needs a top up. How can I find out?

[Devaskyla]

Ds2 had a severe tongue tie. He literally could not move his tongue. I found someone to clip it when he was 6 weeks old. Went pretty much like the other posters have said, except that she swaddled him to keep his hands out of the way. He freaked about being swaddled & managed to get out of it the first time. She literally handed him back to me before I even realized she'd cut the tie. His cry didn't change at all when she did it, I honestly think he didn't even notice.

There was a tiny bit of blood which stopped when I nursed him & he was a much happier baby to be able to move his tongue. I'm sure his speech problems would be much, much worse if it hadn't been clipped.