The case against Epidurals... - Page 5

[Ldavis24]

on a side note, Obstetrics is the specialty of diseases of pregnancy and birth. There is nothing normal about what they learn in medical school, they are trained to look for and treat diseases of pregnancy/birth. Sadly they are not trained to enjoy a normal healthy birth. That is why I like midwives better personally. It is what they trained for, normal birthing.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by MegBoz

I agree that it's sad that birth is now "high-tech" "medicalized" and, as Dr. Marsden Wagner puts it "not women-centered."

The way birth in America is managed is sickening to me. It shouldn't even be "managed" at all -it should just be subtely monitored/observed & allowed to progress naturally - on it's own time.



Well, I can't speak for Erin, who originally said it, but I DO know that the average American birth is NOT empowering. It's just not. Period. It's degrading & horrible. Now that is not to say that it's not possible for a woman to have a medicated birth that IS empowering... but the fact of the matter simply is that it is rare. Heck, empowering hospital birth alone is rare, but medicated & empowering hospital birth? That's gotta be quite rare!

Maybe for you it would be degrading, but that is not the case for everyone. I have had two c-sections and one pregnancy that was full of every intervention I could get. And do you know what, I don't feel degraded at all, in fact I feel quite empowered because I CHOSE this type of birth. I'm not stupid or uneducated, I did my research and this type of prenatal care and birth was right for me. And I came out of both c-sections feeling like I had just experienced the most amazing event ever.


And in case anyone is interested, my mom had six unmedicated births and one with an epidural, and she says that the medicated one was hands down the best birth experience for her. I think her opinion is pretty valid and balanced.

[jeliphish]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

So, how do women who are addicted to hard drugs, or have had no prenatal "care" or who have tried to self-abort explain giving people medication without their consent? How do these things explain performing a c-section on someone who says "no"? How do these things account for putting a sleeping pill in a woman's mouth when she's still completely foggy from a general anesthetic (foggy, as in "didn't remember she'd had a baby") and unable to refuse it? How do these things account for snapping at a woman to "hurry up" when she's exhausting herself trying to roll over on the bed, so that she can feed her baby? How do these things explain a "lactation consultant" grabbing a woman's breast without permission, in order to interfere with breastfeeding? Would any of those actions actually accomplish something positive for a mother with a crack addiction?

The problems in the hospital go way beyond policy on performing surgery. They're equally rooted (maybe more so) in the assumption that the patient has no say, because the doctor - or nurse - is the expert.

I'm not saying that the medical profession can do no wrong by any means. I am as discusted by some nurses, OBs, LCs, as everyone else. My point was just to say that in the midst of crappy doctors, there is an even bigger problems of the insurance companies...
Not every examply can be argued...but I think the example I gave of the OB in my area being sued for something, that in all of our minds (MDC members) was a healthy decision for mom and baby, exemplifies a "good" natural minded doctor being slave to the system. This doctor's mother was a midwife, his dad was a Chiro and they were by ALL means a "hippy family" :. He was the "perfect" OB according to my standards and even greatly supported homebirths. (Popped in on a few of our church members as a "friend" during their homebirths for support).

I just think there are two maybe three very different issues at hand. The OBs, and nurses who perform "birth rape" and treat women like you suggested above, should be fired...there should be no tolerance of them. But you have to agree that not all OB's are like this.

Another seperate issue is the hospital rules/regulations/policies. These are created seperate from the OB to protect the "business" as a whole. Good and Bad OBs have to adhere to these rules, or face being fired. Insurance companies have control over the hospital policies. They can't adhere to the policies, the hospital looses funding in ALL areas not just the OBGYN practice.
If they make seperate rules for seperate pregnancies they run the risk of being sued that way too.

Thirdly
And please note in my original post I never stated "no prenatal care". I truly wish people could see the type of parents who come into the hospital. I could tell stories that would make you cry for days. I personally do not care if some of these moms are "snapped" at because I would snapp at them too.
Doctor abuse is Doctor abuse, no matter what the case.... but if it's not something that is completely abusive/illegal not all woman's treatment has to be equal. Expecting a medical professional to treat a mom nice who has just given birth and then said "F this" and abandoned her child to go out for the evening and come back high....is rediculous.

Anywhoo...I don't mean to offend. I just personally, try to start at the top (insurance companies) to find ways for change. I don't have an opinion for every situation and certainly know that abuse in the hospital setting occurs. That is why I research and choose wisely.

I can't remain online right now so can't support this opinion further...DH just called and was in a wreck, and I have to go pay a freaking tow truck.... :

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by jeliphish

Thirdly
And please note in my original post I never stated "no prenatal care". I truly wish people could see the type of parents who come into the hospital. I could tell stories that would make you cry for days. I personally do not care if some of these moms are "snapped" at because I would snapp at them too.

I don't care what they're like, as they have nothing to do with the "snapped at" scenario I mentioned above. If you would snap at a woman who was just trying to roll over - while recovering from a c-section 24 hours prior, while under the influence of drugs she didn't even know she'd been given, while not receiving any food - in order to feed her baby, and was unable to do so, then you would also deserve all the scorn I'm heaping on these people. That woman didn't bite my head off because of how I treated my baby in utero, or because I was a crazy-acting drug addict. She bit my head off, because I couldn't move fast enough for her convenience.

I find it interesting that you're blaming the insurance companies. All of the things I cited in my prior post took place in my own situation. All of them took place in Canada (which I see cited here frequently as some kind of haven of abuse-free medical care). While insurance companies are still a factor here, they don't play anywhere near the role they do in the US.

I'm not saying that all OBs treat women like that. However, I disagree with you that "it's the only way they can do what they love" is some kind of excuse for treating women badly. No profession has the right to carve women up against their will, because they (the OBs) "love" pregnancy and birth. Just how screwed up is that, anyway?

Doctor abuse is Doctor abuse, no matter what the case.... but if it's not something that is completely abusive/illegal not all woman's treatment has to be equal. Expecting a medical professional to treat a mom nice who has just given birth and then said "F this" and abandoned her child to go out for the evening and come back high....is rediculous.

You know, it sucks that you see stuff like that. It sucks that doctors see stuff like that. However, treating women badly doesn't help anything, even if they did walk off and abandon their babies. Sure - I'd be tempted to be nasty, too...it hurts like hell that some women easily have babies they don't even want. But, it doesn't accomplish anything. In any case, those women are one segment of the birthing population, and the fact that some women are addicted to hard drugs, or don't want their babies, has nothing to do with how every other woman should be treated.

And, how do you define "completely abusive"? I'm pretty sure it was illegal to do a c-section on me after I said no...but oddly enough, the fact that I refused doesn't appear anywhere in my records. I guess it doesn't matter, though...after all, the OB probably had to do it, so that he could keep doing what he loves...sure...

Anyway...this has gone way beyond how much I hate having a needle in my spine...way beyond. I think I'll call it a day.

[angelapittman]

Wow, this is becoming a heated topic . Having one birth in the hospital with the epidural and routine junk, and one at home, I feel very strongly about how wonderful homebirths are and how natural childbirth is, and shouldn't be messed with! In MY experience, birthing at the hospital was not "empowering" at all. It felt like I was not regarded as an individual that they should support in labor, but just another patient that they wanted to just get through to the end. KWIM? My nurses were nice ladies, my CNM was a nice lady, the doctors were nice people. I had a healthy baby, so all in all, it was a good day and a good experience... but I didn't know what I was missing until I had my homebirth

When I arrived at the hospital in labor, the first thing they did after I got into my gown was have me lay down. I didn't think anything of it because that was "normal." That's what you do in a hospital. Then once contractions started getting more intense, the only thing I could do was clench the bars on the bed and tense up in pain. Next thing I know, I'm offered complete pain relief, just sign these papers and you'll be feeling great in no time! No horror story here...my epidural went in (painful, but eh, it's a big needle going into your spine!) and within 5 minutes, I felt better. I constantly switched sides in the bed so I would be evenly numb, and even got up to use the bathroom! Lucky for me, the nurses forgot to put a catheter in . I felt pressure and the urge to push when it was time and baby came out in 20 minutes with a fairly minor 2nd degree tear. Like I said, all in all, a good experience.

I did have a few things that I didn't like about my birth experience, such as them INSISTING on giving my baby antibiotics and keeping her for an extra day, just in case...because when she came out she didn't scream vigorously. ( I now know that this is common with epidural births.) They also made a big deal about her being bluish for the first few seconds of being born. They did not allow me to videotape my birth, which I will ALWAYS regret...my mother was not in the room when she was born because we were only allowed 3 people, and to not cause issues, we just decided it would only be DH. I also spiked a fever shortly after delivery and even passed out in the shower. Some of their other protocol was obnoxious: the armcuff that automatically squeezed my arm every few minutes while laboring (sooo annoying I kept taking it off as soon as they left the room) and being woken up every 2 hours at night to draw blood and take my temperature. Not to mention the dirty looks of "you're a horrible parent" for questions some of the shots they gave her and delaying our discharge by hours and ignoring me when I asked when they would let us go.

For my homebirth, I WAS COMPLETELY IN CONTROL the whole time. I was able to move how I needed to, not rushed at all, push when I needed to ,change positions, etc. That day was the most empowering and wonderfully beautiful day of my life. I was a woman and my body was completely capable of birthing on its own. I didn't have any cervical checks until right at the end when I wanted to push, she checked me. I just did what my instincts told me to do. I also had a much better recovery. The first time around, I felt like I was hit by a bus. This time, I felt better much much sooner. I went to church less than 24 hours after I gave birth lol. I bled less, I was way less swollen, and just felt "normal" a lot sooner.

On the subject of all the love hormones and whatnot, honestly I'd have to say I felt it more with my natural childbirth. OF COURSE I loved my first daughter, but there was something different this time. It's like a more intense feeling of love. From the moment she was born, I've had this ecstatic feeling of overjoy.

I also co-sleep with this one, which I think helps immensely with the bonding and helps with breastfeeding. I didn't co-sleep with my first daughter because before you leave the hospital, they make sure to beat it into your brain that you are irresponsible and will kill your baby if you sleep with them. With my first, I also didn't like breastfeeding, so I stopped soon after she was born. This time, I am loving it. Looking down at my nursing baby makes my heart melt. It is such a special and sweet experience.

Sheesh, sorry for the LOOONG post. Basically, I think the epidural is offered to vulnerable women as the only way to deal with childbirth. Natural methods of handling it have been forgotten by most hospital staff members, and I think the staff THEMSELVES can't deal with a laboring woman and that's why the epidural is basically routine. I think childbirth is wonderful and works best in so many ways when left alone and that a lot of women truly don't know what they're missing!

[BroodyWoodsgal]

I would birth in a box, with a fox...with a mouth full of lox...before I gave birth anywhere close to a hospital! (sorry, I figured maybe a little Dr. Suess would lighten things up!) But that's MY pref. I had an amazing, over the moon birth. I would never, ever consent to the checking of my cervix...forget about an epi!! Just wouldn't happen (barring emergency transfer, obviously).

I think that a lot of women who birth in hospitals don't have an empowering experience...but not because of WHERE they are...rather HOW they are. A women who does the research, writes a thorough birth plan and chooses a provider who listens to her and who she feels sincerely comfortable with...is always gonig to have a more empowering birth experience than the woman who delivers where she thinks she's supposed to, with whoever happens to be her CP and accepts the drugs/whatever that she thinks are *required* for birthing a baby.

So....I don't care WHAT a womans birth plan is....I just want every woman to HAVE one. Look at all the pictures of birth...and decide which one you want to be YOUR picture. Don't just know one picture, the picture "they" show you and think that's what you have to have. CHOOSE. That's all!

Also....wanted to chime in, re: crawling nb's. My baby....about 5 minutes old...army crawled up my chest and latched onto my breast with no help. It was like a freakin' miracle. I was in shock and disbelief! But there she was...swinging her hips, digging in with her arms...it was NUTS. I had seen the research on it and saw the video and thought it was neat but didn't really expect it. My little babe did it though. It took her a minute...but she did it. She's my little scout. My little adventurer!! That was her first real adventure!! Right up from the big scary tummy, to the big lovely booby juice fountain!!

[ShwarmaQueen]

Originally Posted by AverysMomma

A women who does the research, writes a thorough birth plan and chooses a provider who listens to her and who she feels sincerely comfortable with...is always gonig to have a more empowering birth experience than the woman who delivers where she thinks she's supposed to, with whoever happens to be her CP and accepts the drugs/whatever that she thinks are *required* for birthing a baby.

This is true. Also, I'm not really sure how to say this gently, but sometimes we block out the bad stuff to protect ourselves from being hurt by the bad things? For example, I really thought my experience (early induction for "big baby", Pit, AROM, epi, leading to c/s) was FINE and was not disappointed at all until I really dug deep into my psych. I realize now that I didn't do nearly enough to prepare, and can only blame MYSELF. And knowing that I'm planning a HBAC where I'm in control is extremely empowering. I want to feel birth and do what my body needs to do to give birth. I refuse to be victimized at the hospital again because of my ignorance otherwise.

[felix23]

Originally Posted by ShwarmaQueen

This is true. Also, I'm not really sure how to say this gently, but sometimes we block out the bad stuff to protect ourselves from being hurt by the bad things? For example, I really thought my experience (early induction for "big baby", Pit, AROM, epi, leading to c/s) was FINE and was not disappointed at all until I really dug deep into my psych. I realize now that I didn't do nearly enough to prepare, and can only blame MYSELF. And knowing that I'm planning a HBAC where I'm in control is extremely empowering. I want to feel birth and do what my body needs to do to give birth. I refuse to be victimized at the hospital again because of my ignorance otherwise.

I agree, but I think that every mother does this to some extent. I know people who immediately following their unmedicated birth could talk of nothing other then the fact that it was the most horrible, painful, traumatic event in their life, and that they wish they had gone to a hospital to get pain medication. But six months later they go on and on about how it wasn't really painful and it was an amazing experience.

I've even done this with my last c-section. I know that the week following my section was painful, but I really can't remember it. I only really remember the happy parts of holding my baby and nursing for the first time.

I think blocking out all the bad stuff is nature's way of getting women to have more then one child.

[Talula Fairie]

I think the biggest reason to not get an epidural is that they significantly raise your risk of a c/s. They also open the door to tons more intervention and cause you to be immobile during labor (which is no fun).

[Storm Bride]

Originally Posted by felix23

I think blocking out all the bad stuff is nature's way of getting women to have more then one child.

*sigh*
I wish I knew how to do that. I'd probably enjoy this pregnancy a lot more...

[felix23]

Originally Posted by Storm Bride

*sigh*
I wish I knew how to do that. I'd probably enjoy this pregnancy a lot more...

[Ceinwen]

Originally Posted by ShwarmaQueen

Maybe valid isn't the right word...but maybe more fair? More balanced? How can someone who has only had medicated delivery know how she might or might not feel if she had it unmedicated?

Well, I've had a natural birth and a c-section, so maybe my opinion will hold up.

I felt the exact same both times.